2005 US Grand Prix

Minardi · 20th June 2005, 15:45

You can't blame them all. Choose your pick. And give your reasons.

I blame Michelin for this fiasco. They had no business to come to Indianapolis with unfit tyres. Or at least they shd have had a back-up. Now just because they are supplying tyres to 7 teams should we blame FIA for not able to break a rule (or create a new one) to accommodate Michelin? What if Michelin were supplying tyres to only one team? It looks to me like Michelin was trying to use their virtual monopoly to arm-twist FIA. I totally stand by Ferrari, and their decision not to allow a chicane, though Ferrari is a team I hate. It is clear that Michelin had to be punished. So I would have suggested something like...put up a chicane before turn 13, but all Michelin drivers will have to go through a 10-sec stop-go penalty before the 10th lap.

HK

Gordon · 20th June 2005, 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dippy

There have been so many argurments in this thread but a point just crossed my mind. Ferrari were blamed since they did not agree to a chicane but what guarantee was there that the tyres would last the other parts of the circuit or the stadium section for that matter? If one remembers Alonso had a tyre blow out last year on the start finish straight.

Bottom line: If the tyres are defective they cant be defective for just one turn . They have to defective for the whole race. So really Ferrari cannot take even part of the blame for the US GP fiasco

Dippy

Dippy, the problem was not the main straight exactly. The banking at Turn 13 was giving them a lot of problems. Michelin was having trouble with the sidewall of their tyres. The tyres had better chances if the new chicane corner would've been introduced.

"The flat-out, banked, Turn 13 places the critical stress on tyres at Indianapolis, and it was suggested that inserting a chicane at this spot would solve the crisis."
ITV-F1.com
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=33183

"Turn 13 at Indianapolis is the only real banked turn in Formula One racing and proved Michelin's undoing. With an angle of up to nine degrees, it demands a left-right compromise on suspension set-up. The left tyres take the heaviest strain, particularly their shoulders, with tyre temperature increasing in this area as a result (red spot). If this temperature is too high for too long, wear rates rise dramatically and can lead to failure. The tendency for teams to run low tyre pressures, allowing them to use stiffer suspension settings, would only exacerbate the problem."
Formula1.com
http://www.formula1.com/insight/tech...5/740/149.html

Anyways, even if they were given the corner, Ferrari were most likely to win. Moreover, the FIA gave them lot of other options. The options were"

Race slower in Turn 13
Enter pit to change tyres frequently, but no points will be scored no matter what position
Don't race at all

Badcheetah · 20th June 2005, 15:49

THANK YOU SO MUCH !!!
this is what i'm trying to say since day before yesterday .
they should have seen this much before and come well prepared.This is the reson why the teams come to the track before the actual race and set up the car according to the track and the choice of tyre is also a very crutial decision. They messed up , and they and only they (Michelin) should take the blame and as far as the teams that did not race in the US GP , thik twice before you enter a race track again. may be this time they should also get a race designer with them , just in case they need to do what ( U know now ) LOL ....

Dippy · 20th June 2005, 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon

The tyres had better chances if the new chicane corner would've been introduced.

Still just chances . But if tyres are bad anything can go wrong anywhere

Dippy

Gordon · 20th June 2005, 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dippy

Still just chances . But if tyres are bad anything can go wrong anywhere

Disagree. The maximum stress came from Turn 13, and if Turn 13 was done for, they could continue racing safely. The pressures and temperatures are too high when the enter the banked corner at very very high speeds. At no other corner will they experience such stress and temperatures.

F50 · 20th June 2005, 16:05

Regarding the potential insertion of a chicane, F1 Race Director, charlie Whiting said :
"To change the course inorder to help some of the teams with a performance problem caused by their failure to bring suitable equipment to the race would be a breach of the rules and grossly unfair to those teams which have come to Indianapolis with correct tyres"

When teams themselves refuse to blame FIA, then who are we.

Gordon · 20th June 2005, 16:08

This is evident from the fact that during Friday session the Toyota of Ralf Schumacher crashed. He has had a huge accident last year and this time it happened again. In simple words, its too dangerous to send them out.

"The German was travelling at approximately 180mph coming through the banked final corner onto the start/finish straight when his Toyota swapped ends on him with no warning whatsoever.

After spiralling into a series of spins the car made heavy rearward contact with the SAFER barrier on the outside, finally coming to rest several hundred yards up the road on the pit straight.

The impact ripped off the left-hand wheels of the TF105 and caused extensive damage to the bodywork and suspension."
ITV-F1.com

epyupc · 20th June 2005, 16:08

There is no point saying "Come in early and change tyres" or "Drive slow"

When is early? after someone crashes? And the only way to know the amount of deformation was in the lab. Not a visual inspection.

Seriously, who on earth is going to drive slow?

Michelin messed up big time, but ferrari/FIA should have accepted the hicane, with no points for Michelin runners.

Briatore(renault) suggested this, and was again shot down.

Rtech · 20th June 2005, 16:10

Change the track layout and then send 20 of the world's fastest cars out to race on it without any testing! That's a safer option!! I think not...

epyupc · 20th June 2005, 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rtech

Change the track layout and then send 20 of the world's fastest cars out to race on it without any testing! That's a safer option!! I think not...

Adding a chicane on a straight does not alter the layout as such.

The only thing I can think of is the brakes having more stress.

Dippy · 20th June 2005, 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rtech

Change the track layout and then send 20 of the world's fastest cars out to race on it without any testing! That's a safer option!! I think not...

I agree . Adding a chicane would have changed the track layout and the drivers would straight away race on it in the actual GP because free practice and qualifying would have been completed without the chicane.

If you go to see it would be qualifying on one track layout race on another . Qualifying times would be nullified then because the track you race on is not the one you qualified as putting a chicane would have definately affected the qualifying times if put up during qualifying

Dippy

Rtech · 20th June 2005, 16:22

Alter the circuit layout to assist a tyre manufacturer who messed up. What next, slow the cars down because Minardi cannot keep pace with the front runners? Or because Jordan feel their engine would blow, which could lead to a big accident?

Sorry, I don't feel that's an accceptable proposition. The only reason to change the layout of a circuit is if the circuit itself posses a danger to all the drivers, no other reason. And that was surely not the case here.

RX135 · 20th June 2005, 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by epyupc

Michelin messed up big time, but ferrari/FIA should have accepted the hicane, with no points for Michelin runners.

Why should they? If car X is having problem with it, it is problem with car X. Why punish others for its fault. Overall this year, bridgestone tyres have been huge disappointment for Ferrari. So if the tide turned for US GP, why should Ferrari give up the advantage? It's like, "Hey, I have a bad car today, can we race slow? No? You won't? Common, show some sporting spirit, you spoilsport!".

epyupc · 20th June 2005, 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dippy

I agree . Adding a chicane would have changed the track layout and the drivers would straight away race on it in the actual GP because free practice and qualifying would have been completed without the chicane.

If you go to see it would be qualifying on one track layout race on another . Qualifying times would be nullified then because the track you race on is not the one you qualified as putting a chicane would have definately affected the qualifying times if put up during qualifying

Dippy

If the flexibility is not there, then we have to accept that a six car race can happen again.

Because someone always messes up. This time it happened to be the tyre guy that supplies most of the teams.

In the end, this leaves more of a bitter taste than qualifying times or whatever else.
Anyways, the michelin runners wouldn't have got points, and also would have started behind the bridgestone runners
"

Badcheetah · 20th June 2005, 16:27

Why should you alter the track ???
why should you not get proper tyres , I FIND IT HARD TO BELEAVE MICHELIN WHEN THEY SAID THEY WERE PROTESTING ON THE LINES OF DRIVER SAFETY ... REALLY IN THAT CASE , why did they not warn McLaren to change Kimi's visibly dangerous tyre at Nurburgring? :WTF:

If they could warn their teams of a dangerous tyre usage like yesterday, why did they not do that to Kimi? I think the only Michelin's concern was the win. What if Kimi died? Who'd care as long as another Michelin runner (Alonso) won?

View Poll Results: Whom would you blame for the Indianapolis fiasco?
Michelin	38	59.38%
FIA, Bernie	8	12.50%
Ferrari	11	17.19%
All teams using Michelin tyres	7	10.94%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

20th June 2005, 15:45	#76
Minardi BHPian Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Mumbai Posts: 413 Thanked: 15 Times	[Poll] US Grand Prix: Whom would you blame? You can't blame them all. Choose your pick. And give your reasons. I blame Michelin for this fiasco. They had no business to come to Indianapolis with unfit tyres. Or at least they shd have had a back-up. Now just because they are supplying tyres to 7 teams should we blame FIA for not able to break a rule (or create a new one) to accommodate Michelin? What if Michelin were supplying tyres to only one team? It looks to me like Michelin was trying to use their virtual monopoly to arm-twist FIA. I totally stand by Ferrari, and their decision not to allow a chicane, though Ferrari is a team I hate. It is clear that Michelin had to be punished. So I would have suggested something like...put up a chicane before turn 13, but all Michelin drivers will have to go through a 10-sec stop-go penalty before the 10th lap. HK
	() Thanks

20th June 2005, 15:49	#78
Badcheetah BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: New Delhi Posts: 123 Thanked: 3 Times	THANK YOU SO MUCH !!! this is what i'm trying to say since day before yesterday . they should have seen this much before and come well prepared.This is the reson why the teams come to the track before the actual race and set up the car according to the track and the choice of tyre is also a very crutial decision. They messed up , and they and only they (Michelin) should take the blame and as far as the teams that did not race in the US GP , thik twice before you enter a race track again. may be this time they should also get a race designer with them , just in case they need to do what ( U know now ) LOL .... Last edited by Rtech : 20th June 2005 at 15:52.
	() Thanks

20th June 2005, 16:05	#81
F50 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai/USA Posts: 1,707 Thanked: 103 Times	Regarding the potential insertion of a chicane, F1 Race Director, charlie Whiting said : "To change the course inorder to help some of the teams with a performance problem caused by their failure to bring suitable equipment to the race would be a breach of the rules and grossly unfair to those teams which have come to Indianapolis with correct tyres" When teams themselves refuse to blame FIA, then who are we.
	() Thanks

20th June 2005, 16:08	#82
Gordon Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 2,546 Thanked: 483 Times View My Garage	This is evident from the fact that during Friday session the Toyota of Ralf Schumacher crashed. He has had a huge accident last year and this time it happened again. In simple words, its too dangerous to send them out. "The German was travelling at approximately 180mph coming through the banked final corner onto the start/finish straight when his Toyota swapped ends on him with no warning whatsoever. After spiralling into a series of spins the car made heavy rearward contact with the SAFER barrier on the outside, finally coming to rest several hundred yards up the road on the pit straight. The impact ripped off the left-hand wheels of the TF105 and caused extensive damage to the bodywork and suspension." ITV-F1.com
	() Thanks

20th June 2005, 16:08	#83
epyupc BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Coimbatore Posts: 78 Thanked: 0 Times	There is no point saying "Come in early and change tyres" or "Drive slow" When is early? after someone crashes? And the only way to know the amount of deformation was in the lab. Not a visual inspection. Seriously, who on earth is going to drive slow? Michelin messed up big time, but ferrari/FIA should have accepted the hicane, with no points for Michelin runners. Briatore(renault) suggested this, and was again shot down.
	() Thanks

20th June 2005, 16:10	#84
Rtech Team-BHP Support Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 5,770 Thanked: 359 Times View My Garage	Change the track layout and then send 20 of the world's fastest cars out to race on it without any testing! That's a safer option!! I think not...
	() Thanks

20th June 2005, 16:22	#87
Rtech Team-BHP Support Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 5,770 Thanked: 359 Times View My Garage	Alter the circuit layout to assist a tyre manufacturer who messed up. What next, slow the cars down because Minardi cannot keep pace with the front runners? Or because Jordan feel their engine would blow, which could lead to a big accident? Sorry, I don't feel that's an accceptable proposition. The only reason to change the layout of a circuit is if the circuit itself posses a danger to all the drivers, no other reason. And that was surely not the case here.
	() Thanks

20th June 2005, 16:27	#90
Badcheetah BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: New Delhi Posts: 123 Thanked: 3 Times	Michelin get a life Why should you alter the track ??? why should you not get proper tyres , I FIND IT HARD TO BELEAVE MICHELIN WHEN THEY SAID THEY WERE PROTESTING ON THE LINES OF DRIVER SAFETY ... REALLY IN THAT CASE , why did they not warn McLaren to change Kimi's visibly dangerous tyre at Nurburgring? :WTF: If they could warn their teams of a dangerous tyre usage like yesterday, why did they not do that to Kimi? I think the only Michelin's concern was the win. What if Kimi died? Who'd care as long as another Michelin runner (Alonso) won?
	() Thanks