[issigonis]

Originally Posted by kcnetid

Though I am a very disappointed and a very big Kimi (and Mika) fan, I will have to agree with nitrous on that you can't really compare Kimi and Schumi. I do have a few points to make though. These can be controversial so please reign in your language when you dispute me :-)



Also despite Kimi's partying image, he has way more class on the track than Schumi, I don't recall one incident of a cheap shot from Kimi while I remember many cases of Schumi's wheel banging or aggressive tactics. I used to like Schumi but sorta lost respect from him after seeing him celebrating wins after Ruebens 'team orders' to fall back and also quite a few incidents of 'aggressive racing'.

All said and done, in another 5 yrs, nobody will remember individual races or even seasons and all that will remain is the record books and Schumi's 7 wins - however justified that is.

kcnetid,

I agree totally with your points.
Although numbers are tangible and do prove a lot, especially when the differences are stark, they do not provide a definitive answer when you factor in variables which are less tangible. Track conditions, quality-reliability-technical excellence of the car, backing of the team, state of mind of the driver, quality of the opposition and other similar factors play a vital role.

In terms of numbers, Schumi's seven is huge; but on the flip side will you rate him higher simply because he won more titles without looking at other factors?
That way, he would be superior to Fangio, Clark, Moss, Lauda, Prost, Senna and to everyone else. But would he?

I would put my money on Kimi, despite Schumi's seven, primarily due to Kimi's ability to wring speeds from (many a time) inferior/unreliable machinery, due to the fact that he never enjoyed the support that a Schumi/Alonso/Hamilton enjoyed/still enjoy with their teams.

I will classify Kimi at the same level of a Fangio, a Clark, a Nuvolari. I would classify Schumi one notch lower.

Regards

[kcnetid]

Just to clarify, I am Kimi's fan and think(maybe the word is "wish") he is better. He is the one whom I looked forward to after Mika retired and broke my heart.
I think this got lost in my earlier long post. I didn't want to crib too much about Schumi :-)

Despite that, Schumi had a lot of brilliant races - especially in the wet. There were races when he came close to lapping 2nd and 3rd place cars.
I will hazard to say that Schumi was a better(even exceptional) manager of the car - nursing it even with bad or damaged equipment etc. At one point, in early '00s, watching formula1 became boring. Schumi absolutely dominated the races and I kept hoping somebody else will win - Montoya, Kimi, Ruebens...anybody BUT schumi...I was disappointed fortnight after fortnight for years together. Things got interesting only after Alonso/Renault.
The only reason I continued watching was for Kimi.

I am sad to say this but even if I have to start to argue that Kimi is better, he should have had at least one more championship. His only championship was also a scrape through.
Lets not even bring in Senna, Fangio et al.
No. of championships and race wins are not a definitive measure of 'better' but such a wide gap can be a very good indicator. I think people missed my earlier point that Schumi has much better equipment thanks to Brawn.

Kimi actually does not have a drive this season. I think that itself speaks a lot. There have been *many* times over the last 5-6 years and especially this season when I wanted to kick some sense into Kimi. He seemed to be just going through the motions in quite a few races. He should race or get out of the way. I feel let down.

Our own Karthikeyan is noted as being 'blindingly fast' over a couple of laps but race distance matters and he was 2nd in his team in both seasons in Jordan.

Schumi is one of the all time greats and has wrested a place alongside Senna, Lauda...
Even if you rate him one notch lower and I would like to rate him lower too, he has earned his place with sheer achievement - consistently, race after race... to the point of making F1 predictable.

I am not sure on what basis to start a discussion on except for my feeling. If Kimi had 2 more championships, it will be a fair fight and even with a 3-7 gap (or to be more accurate 3-5, if Kimi won 2 more, Schumi would have won only 5), we can claim that Schumi wins are a statistical anomaly - attributed to better equipment, strategy, partiality...whatever. Trying to argue a 1-7 is a lost battle. I have to grit my teeth and bear it.
I wish Kimi and Schumi had 2-3 seasons in equally competitive cars. That would have been fun.

[karthik247]

No one has more desire to win than Michael, and that makes him the greatest driver ever.

Originally Posted by kcnetid

2.1 Ross Brawn and Todd are very big factors in the wins by Schumi. Look at what happened this year.

So does that mean this year, Jenson won because of Brawn and not his skill??

Originally Posted by kcnetid

2.2 Mika chose to retire. There was no way Schumi could have won half as many if Mika continued.

Thats impossible to say!!! If Mika was SO good, why doesn't he have the number of titles Schumi has?? Hmm, maybe he would have if Schumi had retired earlier, no?

Originally Posted by kcnetid

2.4 After Mika and before Renault/Alonso, other cars were not just in the same class in terms of pace or reliability. All the other champs/former champs did not get good rides.

Thats really not his fault. Its upto the team to supple good fast reliable cars, which was provided to Schumacher by Ferrari and of which he made good use of.

Originally Posted by kcnetid

2.5 There were a lot of times when Schumi got away with infractions where other drivers would have been penalised and hence lost places/points.

Yes, there might have been instances, but each and every team and probably every driver has been involved in some thing or the other in F1.

Originally Posted by kcnetid

Not taking anything away from Schumi, my guess is that he *actually* won not more than 2-3 championships on equal terms. The rest were because of the reasons mentioned above. Look at what happened when Renault had a good car or with BrawnGP.

I don't understand how you can say that. He ACTUALLY has 7 titles, thats all that matters.

Originally Posted by kcnetid

All said and done, in another 5 yrs, nobody will remember individual races or even seasons and all that will remain is the record books and Schumi's 7 wins - however justified that is.

He will be remembered by millions as the man who dominated F1

This move by Schumacher on Kimi at about 300kmph shows whos boss and pretty much seals this.

YouTube - Michael Schumacher overtakes Kimi R. Brazil 2006

[PAVAN KADAM]

I would say this is a MINDLESS debate.

Schumi vs Kimi = No comparision.

We've noticed many champs in the recent past, who have won races because of the great car they are driving.

But Schumi won races in his lifetime because he was a goood driver.

[fi.robin]

Originally Posted by karthik247

YouTube - Michael Schumacher overtakes Kimi R. Brazil 2006

If that was schumi overtaking Kimi then how about the vice-versa.

YouTube - Räikkönen passes Schumacher Belgium 2004

[saildrive]

MICHAEL SCHUMMACHER
Been with the best teams, a good driver, fought tough battles with the likes of Mika Hakinen, Jacques Vileneuve etc., and if memory serves right was beaten hands down.

Has been a good driver in the wet, no denying he won 7 championships, but when you had the likes of the above mentioned - it was a tough fight.

No denying he would do anything for a win, and that included ensuring the management made the team mate concede / let him pass and win.
Has had manouvers which would or have been fatal for the others...... as i mentioned would do anything for a win....therefore he was more of an OPPORTUNIST than a great race driver in my mind.

KIMI RAIKONNEN
Kimi's in simple words is a RACER someone mentioned "Raw" here
He would only be botherered of his driving, irrespective of what the other is upto
Its just the rawness of him, driving to the best of his ability and the car he is in
There is no make believe - you take him the way he is!
You could put him in a tuk tuk and all he would do it - Race in it.
Not a manipulator, not a big brand endorser, not press friendly..... Cos KIMI was born to just race......SPEED
Hard and fast - period!

[srishiva]

I think Ferrari has already decided who is the best (and someone not good for them).

[Country Road]

Schumi himself had said in one of his interviews, that he always considered Mika to be a better driver and the toughest opponent he has ever raced. Kimi is a great driver, but has been unfortunate. MIKA & SCHUMI have both retired. When MIKA was there it was never onesided.

Hence a fair comparision should be between MIKA & SCHUMI.

[RX135]

Originally Posted by condor

Square-root of 7, pls

If RB wasnt there doing guard duty for Schumi, Schumi would not have won even half of what he won. Numbers are mis-leading. .

Take out 50% of his wins and still he would be far ahead

[anachronix]

Not a fair topic to discuss really...

I would agree with Country_Road! Mika Vs Schumi topis would make some sense.

[gomzi]

Originally Posted by anachronix

Not a fair topic to discuss really...

I would agree with Country_Road! Mika Vs Schumi topis would make some sense.

+1. This who is better between Kimi & Schumi cannot really be discussed objectively. The manner in which they made their careers and went about racing is vastly different. Both are good, in different ways.

A lot of this comparison also depends on when a person started following F1. Naturally, he/she will have a 2nd hand opinion on drivers who have retired and a good 1st hand opinion on current drivers. This will skew opinion one way or the other e.g I simply cannot comment on Prost vs. Senna reliably because I haven't followed F1 at that time.

[issigonis]

Originally Posted by kcnetid

Just to clarify, I am Kimi's fan and think
I wish Kimi and Schumi had 2-3 seasons in equally competitive cars. That would have been fun.

Again, I am in agreement generally.

As I said above, it is my opinion that Kimi is superior. Note that I mentioned that statistics are brutal when the difference is stark, not otherwise.

Objective assessments can be made when two drivers drive the same car over the same circuit at the same time, with the same management. Since that is almost impossible, the debate will continue and raise interesting insights.

Let me also say that I am not a great believer in the infallibility of statistics in F1. The state of the machinery, the 'support' enjoyed by the driver from his team, and luck all play a part. I know that Schumi's fans will have as many instances of Schumi's great drives/moves as will Kimi's; and Schumi was a very fine driver.

Also, it is possible to form an opinion aboutsomeone whom one has never seen in the flesh, but through recollections ( TV footage, reportage, records) to realise as to whether he was really good or not. How else can we judge the old masters - Fangio, Nuvolari, Moss or even Clark? Or come to think of it, cricketers like Bradman or Sobers, or tennis players such as Pancho Gonzales/ Tilden/Budge?

Agreed that it is indeed very difficult to compare old masters with the new as the conditions are very different. But that is precisely why it is so interesting, and debatable!

Regards

[issigonis]

Originally Posted by srishiva

I think Ferrari has already decided who is the best (and someone not good for them).

Please note that Ferrari has included Alonso ( a very fine driver undoubtedly) because their most important sponsor is Banco Santander. Banco Santander wanted a Spanish driver in their overall package.

I doubt Alonso would have been included if he didn't bear a Spanish passport.

Regards

[im_srini]

This is no contest, at least according to me ! Schumi isn't called the "Regenmeister" for nothing.

With the TC ban, Kimi became a damp squib & the only spectaculars from the "IceMan" were his wisecracks ! It was poor Massa who took the fight to Lewis last year (most of this year too). I don't remember Schumi being outclassed by his team-mate - ever...

[Akadian]

Originally Posted by im_srini

I don't remember Schumi being outclassed by his team-mate - ever...

However, many of us do remember multiple occasions when Schumi beat RB not for his superior driving skills but with the assistance of team orders. Quite an ugly thing, this phenomenon called a team order in F1. I wonder many times that had RB been provided as reliable a car as Schumi, would he have beaten him almost consistently. Do many of you remember as well as me that RB used to have reliability issues many a times when Schumi seemed to be having a rather smooth and trouble-free time.

Schumi's numbers are highly misleading. If Senna had not died, he would never have won the first two and if Mikka had not retired he would have lost another 2 at least. What is left is 3 out of the seemingly unsurpassable 7. I sincerely believe that is his true worth