[CPH]

Originally Posted by jaganm

Doubt Vettel is the only threat, the Mclaren boys are in the fight as well and now that their car seems to be on par with the Redbulls, expect Hammy to give them a good fight.

You are right and letting Vettel pass would have have lost him the lead but would have been 14 points ahead of Button and 19 of Hamilton rather than 5 and 9 points rspectively. Red Bull stated that the next race is not a track where the will be doing as well, which might mean that The other drivers will eat in more than the pointds he leads. From this perspective Webber shot in his own foot.

[deetjohn]

Originally Posted by anachronix

Remember Webber's defense on Kimi back in Brazil 2009? He is not as nice as he speaks in the press conference.

Webber may not be nice. But being nice never made anyone a champion.

But having a cool head all season long counts, a lot.

Vettel is a great talent and I want him to do well. And who knows, if not for that broken anti-roll bar, he would have won the race from pole.

It's a shame that he is cracking under pressure.

[McLaren Rulez]

Originally Posted by CPH

You are right and letting Vettel pass would have have lost him the lead but would have been 14 points ahead of Button and 19 of Hamilton rather than 5 and 9 points rspectively.

The same argument applies for Vettel who would also be ahead of Hamilton and Button in the championship had he stuck to second. You could say Vettel has shot himself in the foot just as badly, if not worse.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by deetjohn

Webber may not be nice. But being nice never made anyone a champion.

But having a cool head all season long counts, a lot.

Does it mean you can punt off your team mate and keep a cool head in the press conference will make a Champion?

Vettel is a great talent and I want him to do well. And who knows, if not for that broken anti-roll bar, he would have won the race from pole.

It's a shame that he is cracking under pressure.

Vettel looks a lot demotivated, with the number of failures that he had with his Redbull during the first half of the season.

[Shan2nu]

I dont understand why there is so much argument over who was wrong here. Marko and Horner both confirmed that Mark should've left more space for Vettel.

How much more space does Vettel need buddy? Was his car off the road at any point?

Webber wasn't a backmarker to just move to the extreme right and let vettel have his way. Vettel easily had 1 car worth of space between Webber and the edge of the track. How he handles this situation without crashing out or crashing into the competitor's car is upto him.

Yes, if Webber had moved to the left and crashed into Vettel then he would have been at fault. But that didn't happen.

Shan2nu

[McLaren Rulez]

The YouTube links posted earlier don't work so here's the incident if anyone wants a second look. The twenty second mark is where is begins. There is a very obvious swerve from Vettel into Webber. And you can judge how much room Vettel had for yourself

YouTube - Formula 1 Weber Vettel crash Grand Prix Istanbul 2010 (Türkye)

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by Shan2nu

How much more space does Vettel need buddy? Was his car off the road at any point?

Webber wasn't a backmarker to just move to the extreme right and let vettel have his way. Vettel easily had 1 car worth of space between Webber and the edge of the track. How he handles this situation without crashing out or crashing into the competitor's car is upto him.

Yes, if Webber had moved to the left and crashed into Vettel then he would have been at fault. But that didn't happen.

Shan2nu

Vettel had got the nose of his car in front and he was getting on the racing line so that he has enough traction to enter the following corner. His focus would be absolutely on the following corner and it looks like Vettel swerving into Webber only because Webber was not ready to give him the space & lose the racing line which ultimately ended up in the worst possible way for the team.

[CPH]

Might be that you have picked up that Vettel was forced to pick up quite some dust, that the surface is not plan and that he was for a moment on the kerb at a minimum of 70 metres a second.

Claiming that Vettel pulled in deliberatedly is a bit far fetched. I am not looking for it to be right. Some people seem to have the urge to be right under all circumsatnces like it was in the Nano thread when it finally tunred out that the ones flaming me were wrong.

You are thousands of miles away from the action and want to know more than the people that have the interest to solve the situation and have all the data at hand.

You honestly want to claim that they are all idiots out there? if you have tha answer to all off it, Mateschitz would like to hear from you, because he always is looking for the best.

[Shan2nu]

Claiming that Vettel pulled in deliberatedly is a bit far fetched.

Then why is Webber being held responsible for this, when it was Vettel's car that moved to the right.

If redbull telemetry says that Vettel did not try to force his way to the right and that the car moved due to some other reason, then they should just call it an unfortunate racing accident and end it there.

Shan2nu

[McLaren Rulez]

Originally Posted by CPH

I am not looking for it to be right. Some people seem to have the urge to be right under all circumsatnces like it was in the Nano thread when it finally tunred out that the ones flaming me were wrong.

This is off topic but the reason people stopped posting there is because it was impossible to make a point with logic and sense anymore. But if it puts you to sleep, then you can go thinking you were actually right.

Originally Posted by CPH

You are thousands of miles away from the action and want to know more than the people that have the interest to solve the situation and have all the data at hand.

As are you, I might add. This reply is something of a standard one from you. I see it in almost every debate. Oh and in case you think only Red Bull have the data, that's not the case. They've already revealed the engine settings and tyre conditions of the two and video and lap time charts prior to and during the accident is free for everyone to see.

Besides, don't take my word for it. Take James Allen's in this link. Or maybe the majority of racing fans from various parts of the world

For what it’s worth, in a JA on F1 reader’s poll, with a sample of 2,000 as of 9pm this evening, 80% of fans say that the accident was Vettel’s fault.

Another poll on a popular website, Planet F1 had an even more solid 86% saying it was Vettel's fault on their forums. Similar results in Autosport's forum too. I posted telemetry as well, which showed Marko's explanation not holding up (James Allen also mentioned it) which you conveniently ignored.

Now you can call James Allen, Martin Brundle, Mark Webber and thousands of racing fans around the world, me included, wrong and claim that you're right. In which case I cannot convince you any further. I hope you can at least see Shan2nu's point. It can even be a simple racing incident.

[echo77]

If Webber slowed and let him pass, Vettel had enough distance to brake and take the lead

Webber did not slow and was narrowing the gap so Vettel would be off the racing line if he went ahead, causing overbraking and Webber retaking the lead in the next corner. Vettel tried to push things.
Vettel had 3 options:
1) slow down, let webber move up and try again - safest option, and he would still be right behind webber
2) move ahead, overbrake, let webber pass and then retry (this is what button and hamilton did some laps later) - a safe option, considering there were no others immediately behind to take advantage of this, but this would take him a couple of seconds behind webber and he would have to recover that time
3) hope against hope that webber would be moving the other way to racing line for the curve ahead and try to cut him off - a risky option, given Webber's reputation and previous experience

Vettel went for #3, Webber didn't budge. In hindsight, both cars would be out. Team orders should have come in here. Dietrich will have choked on his red bulls

A qn: Webber is legal in holding his racing line to the limit, but is he legal in narrowing the gap of a car that is a full half length ahead, esp when there is a corner coming up and you are supposed to be moving the other way?

[CPH]

McLaren you are so predictable. Same pattern on the Nano thread. You are claimong and I go along with the people who have much more facts at hand. I trust the Red Bull team more than you and your sources. Quite simple. The Red Bull team has shown its expertise time and time again. I can't even with the best of will say this about you. you are trying to make Marko an idiot. Pretty haughty.

[deetjohn]

Originally Posted by anachronix

Does it mean you can punt off your team mate and keep a cool head in the press conference will make a Champion?

. Nice statement there!

As pointed out, Webber left Vettel just enough room on the inside, which is fair.

Both of them knew Vettel would never make the next left-hander in that position even if his car was ahead of Webber. Vettel cannot out brake his teammate on that line because of the rubber marbles and Webber was much better positioned for that corner.

Someone had to give in.

What Vettel could have done is edge Webber slowly out of the racing line while approaching the corner. Instead he chose to move right in a quick movement towards Webber. The replays clearly show that.

Or Vettel could have just eased off there and attacked Webber from a better position in the next corner/ lap. Heck, it was not like the last lap or anything.

It's was a high pressure situation and Vettel cracked. Simple as that.

So, you decide on who "punted off" whom.

[McLaren Rulez]

Originally Posted by CPH

I trust the Red Bull team more than you and your sources. you are trying to make Marko an idiot.

Well you're trying to make Mark (not Marko) look like an idiot too.

But listen, I think its about time we called it quits. You and I don't see eye to eye on some issues but I dislike having heated and personal arguments with you or anyone else for that matter. And there have been plenty of those already.

So can we just agree to disagree and put this behind us? It will make our future interactions in the forum much more pleasant. Thank you.

[Shan2nu]

A qn: Webber is legal in holding his racing line to the limit, but is he legal in narrowing the gap of a car that is a full half length ahead, esp when there is a corner coming up and you are supposed to be moving the other way?

Yes he is? As long as he is sticking to his line, he has the right to accelerate.

Shan2nu