Imola : Michael's move on Montoya

Wraith · 29th April 2004, 17:49

hmmmm...food for thought...overtaking in F1 isnt like overtaking on our roads...where u find a lil space and just squeeze thru.In F1 chances for overtaking are limited and those cars are doing well over 200kmph in most sections of the tracks so overtaking needs to be a carefully planned move.Just because the car ahead is struggling doesnt mean u can overtake that car...cause the car ahead will always want to keep its position and also there is only 1 racing line and the smartest way to overtake is always from the inside...when u try to overtake from the outside you have to cover more track which costs time and puts you off the racing line(and i guess every1 knows how bad it can be goin off the racing line esp when the tyres arent upto operating temp).And by struggling Michael was proabably doing well over 250kmph before he must have braked and and was on the racing line.So if Mr JPM thought he would poke his nose and expect Michael to move over and let him thru then JPM was hallucinating.

Yup Michael was left speechless by JPM's pure stupidty and childish behaviour

Hatari · 29th April 2004, 22:28

overtaking needs to be carefully planned ? not always..
so when a driver makes a mistake and gives the car behind him a chance to get thru.. what is that ??
E.g. Alonso's move on ralf !!!!!
that was a split second decision

what speed MS was at BEFORE the corner is IRRELEVANT...
whats important is.. Montoya got ahead of him on the turn and was QUICKER..

here's the video..
http://www.aqva14.dsl.pipex.com/ukf1....ays.mpg

and notice how MS stays absolutely on the outside line.. even on to the run off strips...
his last move on the turn being to push montoya even further out..
and to make sure he doesnt get by..
( that little move where he turns the steering to the right ( end of turn )
on the run off strips..

Wraith · 30th April 2004, 01:35

I dont mean u make a blue print before you overtake a car...but you just need to weigh your options and judge where your best chance is.What Alonso did was a genuine overtaking manovouer...it was took big a mistake by Ralf for him to defend his position.What happened between Michael and JPM was totally diff...maybe JPM sensed an oppourtunity but he had a Ferrari with Michael Schumacher in it to overtake which is anyways diffcult in F1 and esp when you go round the outside.Michael pusing JPM was the kinda thing that JPM deserved...it will be a lesson for him not to try and overtake from the outside.What do you think would have happened if the roles where reversed and Michael tried to go around the outside i am pretty sure JPM again would have said...What does MS think of himself trying to pull off such a manovouer...If he is the world champion it doesnt mean he can do whatever he wants...i am sure this would have been JPM's comment.JPM is all talk and no performance maybe Klein can teach him how to overtake

and please try some stunts at 100kmph+ and you'll understand why Michael's speed going into the corner was important.At 200kmph+ the reaction time reduces drastically and one wrong move and you end up on the grass(Remember JPM in USA 2003 and recently the brave moves of Ralf) guess the both the Williams drivers need some lessons in overtaking.

Hatari · 1st May 2004, 02:55

In F1.. speed is relative.. you cannot imagine how good F1 drivers are..
so stop using phrases like 'reaction time' and 'end up on the grass'..
if u want to try n imagine how good they are..
read the 2 articles i posted..

1. mind blowing F1 stat and,
2. pat symonds - senna's 1st race engineer ( under - Remembering a genius )

comign back to schumi-montoya..
hope u watched montoya take ms into the 1st corner at brazil in 2001..
thats answers a few questions.. dont u think ?
and MS will know he can pull off similar cheeky moves..

Rehaan · 1st May 2004, 06:12

Hey Hatari,

I agree with you that overtaking need not ALWAYS be done from the inside, but however after watching the video i would say that Montoya is at fault.
The fact is that MS had no option but to hold that line through the curve (the only way he could have gone tighter would have been by slowing down, which is not something you do to "let" some1 overtake you).
Notice EVERY car in the video takes the exact line michael takes thru that corner.
Montoya was obviously in a dreamworld if he thought MS would pull over and let him pass.
The turning the steering to the right is not to push Montoya further off (as he was aldready in the grass and hence NO chance of powering up to overtake michael because the traction on grass is as good as traction on sand!). The momentary steering towards the right looks more like a reflex that is a correction for when their cars make contact/or came really close.
Montoya got a bit carried away in my opinion!

cya
Rehaan

ps - thanks a lot for the vid..was wondering what this "move" was as i rarely ever get the chance to watch f1.

Wraith · 1st May 2004, 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]In F1.. speed is relative.. you cannot imagine how good F1 drivers are..
so stop using phrases like 'reaction time' and 'end up on the grass'..

Helloo...i dont want to create a mess here...but what dou mean by speed is relative in F1? Everyone knows how good a F1 driver is there is no doubting their skills...but they are humans and can and do make errors in judgement.A F1 driver will for sure have much better reflexes than you and me but that doesnt mean they are super-human.Driving at close 300kmph is tough for them too.
Getting back to the point...Rehaan you hit the nail on the head!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Montoya was obviously in a dreamworld if he thought MS would pull over and let him pass.

If JPM pulled a similar move in Brazil in 2001 doesnt mean he will always be able to pull off such a move anywhere and anytime he wants.The right way to overtake is from the inside...there can be exceptions at times but not always.
Hatari...Not wanting to get personal but just wanna know how fast have you driven(not been a passenger) any vehicle?

Hatari · 2nd May 2004, 02:09

but MS did have the inside line.. he was taking a defensive line thru the corner..
that i'm sure of..
u can also make out .. to an extent.. in the video..
u can see that well before the kerbing starts..montoya is already on the outside
( right in the beginning.. pause it before it starts to play.. then rewind.. 1st frame of the video )

well yeah... this is getting a lil too personal..
think my dislike for MS is quite apparent..
so lets keep it at that !

the fastest i'v driven a car is at 160... an ikon 1.6 ( brakes suck ! )..
and the stretch ends with a slight turn..
and i was in trouble.. was slowing down but entered it too fast..
braking at high speed.. WHILE U'RE TURNING.. is bloody tricky !
luckily there was no on coming traffic..

cant help mentioning.. ( again )
fastest i'v been in a car is 230kmph in a Ferrari 348 !

btw.. wraith.. didnt see ure top 10 drivers..

Wraith · 2nd May 2004, 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]braking at high speed.. WHILE U'RE TURNING.. is bloody tricky !

there you go man....you said it yourself

29th April 2004, 17:49	#16
Wraith BHPian Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 83 Thanked: Once	hmmmm...food for thought...overtaking in F1 isnt like overtaking on our roads...where u find a lil space and just squeeze thru.In F1 chances for overtaking are limited and those cars are doing well over 200kmph in most sections of the tracks so overtaking needs to be a carefully planned move.Just because the car ahead is struggling doesnt mean u can overtake that car...cause the car ahead will always want to keep its position and also there is only 1 racing line and the smartest way to overtake is always from the inside...when u try to overtake from the outside you have to cover more track which costs time and puts you off the racing line(and i guess every1 knows how bad it can be goin off the racing line esp when the tyres arent upto operating temp).And by struggling Michael was proabably doing well over 250kmph before he must have braked and and was on the racing line.So if Mr JPM thought he would poke his nose and expect Michael to move over and let him thru then JPM was hallucinating. Yup Michael was left speechless by JPM's pure stupidty and childish behaviour
	() Thanks

29th April 2004, 22:28	#17
Hatari Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Calcutta Posts: 1,901 Thanked: 926 Times	overtaking needs to be carefully planned ? not always.. so when a driver makes a mistake and gives the car behind him a chance to get thru.. what is that ?? E.g. Alonso's move on ralf !!!!! that was a split second decision what speed MS was at BEFORE the corner is IRRELEVANT... whats important is.. Montoya got ahead of him on the turn and was QUICKER.. here's the video.. http://www.aqva14.dsl.pipex.com/ukf1....ays.mpg and notice how MS stays absolutely on the outside line.. even on to the run off strips... his last move on the turn being to push montoya even further out.. and to make sure he doesnt get by.. ( that little move where he turns the steering to the right ( end of turn ) on the run off strips..
	() Thanks

30th April 2004, 01:35	#18
Wraith BHPian Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 83 Thanked: Once	I dont mean u make a blue print before you overtake a car...but you just need to weigh your options and judge where your best chance is.What Alonso did was a genuine overtaking manovouer...it was took big a mistake by Ralf for him to defend his position.What happened between Michael and JPM was totally diff...maybe JPM sensed an oppourtunity but he had a Ferrari with Michael Schumacher in it to overtake which is anyways diffcult in F1 and esp when you go round the outside.Michael pusing JPM was the kinda thing that JPM deserved...it will be a lesson for him not to try and overtake from the outside.What do you think would have happened if the roles where reversed and Michael tried to go around the outside i am pretty sure JPM again would have said...What does MS think of himself trying to pull off such a manovouer...If he is the world champion it doesnt mean he can do whatever he wants...i am sure this would have been JPM's comment.JPM is all talk and no performance maybe Klein can teach him how to overtake and please try some stunts at 100kmph+ and you'll understand why Michael's speed going into the corner was important.At 200kmph+ the reaction time reduces drastically and one wrong move and you end up on the grass(Remember JPM in USA 2003 and recently the brave moves of Ralf) guess the both the Williams drivers need some lessons in overtaking.
	() Thanks

1st May 2004, 02:55	#19
Hatari Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Calcutta Posts: 1,901 Thanked: 926 Times	In F1.. speed is relative.. you cannot imagine how good F1 drivers are.. so stop using phrases like 'reaction time' and 'end up on the grass'.. if u want to try n imagine how good they are.. read the 2 articles i posted.. 1. mind blowing F1 stat and, 2. pat symonds - senna's 1st race engineer ( under - Remembering a genius ) comign back to schumi-montoya.. hope u watched montoya take ms into the 1st corner at brazil in 2001.. thats answers a few questions.. dont u think ? and MS will know he can pull off similar cheeky moves..
	() Thanks

1st May 2004, 06:12	#20
Rehaan Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 24,188 Thanked: 36,130 Times	Hey Hatari, I agree with you that overtaking need not ALWAYS be done from the inside, but however after watching the video i would say that Montoya is at fault. The fact is that MS had no option but to hold that line through the curve (the only way he could have gone tighter would have been by slowing down, which is not something you do to "let" some1 overtake you). Notice EVERY car in the video takes the exact line michael takes thru that corner. Montoya was obviously in a dreamworld if he thought MS would pull over and let him pass. The turning the steering to the right is not to push Montoya further off (as he was aldready in the grass and hence NO chance of powering up to overtake michael because the traction on grass is as good as traction on sand!). The momentary steering towards the right looks more like a reflex that is a correction for when their cars make contact/or came really close. Montoya got a bit carried away in my opinion! cya Rehaan ps - thanks a lot for the vid..was wondering what this "move" was as i rarely ever get the chance to watch f1.
	() Thanks

2nd May 2004, 02:09	#22
Hatari Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Calcutta Posts: 1,901 Thanked: 926 Times	but MS did have the inside line.. he was taking a defensive line thru the corner.. that i'm sure of.. u can also make out .. to an extent.. in the video.. u can see that well before the kerbing starts..montoya is already on the outside ( right in the beginning.. pause it before it starts to play.. then rewind.. 1st frame of the video ) well yeah... this is getting a lil too personal.. think my dislike for MS is quite apparent.. so lets keep it at that ! the fastest i'v driven a car is at 160... an ikon 1.6 ( brakes suck ! ).. and the stretch ends with a slight turn.. and i was in trouble.. was slowing down but entered it too fast.. braking at high speed.. WHILE U'RE TURNING.. is bloody tricky ! luckily there was no on coming traffic.. cant help mentioning.. ( again ) fastest i'v been in a car is 230kmph in a Ferrari 348 ! btw.. wraith.. didnt see ure top 10 drivers..
	() Thanks