[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by hillram

Great Write up Pavan.But one should also not forget the negative side of Michael,which is that,he will do anything to win.
==================
But rivalry is common in F1.Senna-Prost were classic examples.
But Michael took the rivalry to personal levels sometimes.
In a nutshell i never supported Michael Schumacher.

1994,1998 and 2002 that you mention are not down to Schumacher. Damon Hill admitted years later that he was at fault for the accident at Adelaide 1994 as he was too eager to take the place from MS. The other two you mention are non incidents, especially Spa 1998, I dont know how you can say MS shouldnt be enraged by DC(a backmarker) lifting in heavy spray on the racing line.

Senna was undoubtedly more unsporting than Schumacher, and he's revered as a saint and a god around the world because he died on the race track.

The "negative side" of Schumacher isnt any bigger than the negative side of Lewis Hamilton or Alonso today and certainly less than the likes of Senna before him. This evil boy image of Schumacher was created by the British press and it continues today because MS is German and he ended up kicking the rears of two generations of talentless Brits on the grid.

[slicvic]

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Mind you, there was very little involvement from Schumacher there.
Ross Brawn's strategic genius came into play.

Thanks for that info.

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

It was a superb way to make an *** out of the stewards there, who by giving that penalty were making a highly controversial decision.

Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM

Sometimes todays F1 can never match up with the olden times.

So true about that. Waiting to see such moments again

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Damon Hill admitted years later that he was at fault for the accident at as he was too eager to take the place from MS.

I find this very hard to believe. Can we have your source pls.

[good.car-ma]

Originally Posted by Hatari

I find this very hard to believe. Can we have your source pls.

yeah please clarify. I havent heard anything of the sort either In fact, when MS was given a penalty in Monaco last year, the major complaint was that Hill was still aggrieved with him about those years. I dont recall anything where he said it was his fault and not schumachers. would be interesting to see if he did indeed say that

[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by Hatari

I find this very hard to believe. Can we have your source pls.

I had read this on an F1 racing magazine (print version) sometime in 2000 just after his retirement - sorry I dont have those old magazines anymore, if you do have them, I'll guide you to the exact issue which has his comments.

Edit : I know its not the kind of source you're looking for, but there are a few posters who refer to Hill's admission of guilt here as well. Check page 2:

http://www.f1db.com/forums/showthrea...5&page=1&pp=10

[Mik]

A testament to how Schumacher transcended sporting barriers.
-------
Circa 2003: I was on a train going to Patna from Pune. There were two guys discussing cricket. Soon the conversation veered to different sports. It was obvious that they had no idea about anything apart from cricket.

Then one guy said:
Yaar car racing bhi hoti hai naa..

The other one said:
yaar usska toh itna hi pataa hai ke jabse paida huye hai, Schumacher hi jeet rahaa hai..
-------
I am desperate to see him win atleast one race. Very unlikely though.

[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by good.car-ma

yeah please clarify. I havent heard anything of the sort either In fact, when MS was given a penalty in Monaco last year, the major complaint was that Hill was still aggrieved with him about those years. I dont recall anything where he said it was his fault and not schumachers. would be interesting to see if he did indeed say that

To start off, the penalty MS got at Monaco 2010 is one of the most ridiculous you'll ever see along with the one Hamilton got at Spa 2008 and Alonso's penalty at Monza 2006.

If you did watch those years (94,95) you'll realize that Hill was responsible for more crashes with Schumacher than the other way round. I know, hard to believe, but Hill drove often like a maniac and in races like Silverstone and Monza 1995 taking both drivers out of the race. He also whined like no tomorrow after the legendary performance Schumacher put up at Spa in 1995 from 16th to 1st place. MS legitimately defended Hill's clumsy attempts at overtaking him on a drenched track, with Hill on full wets and Schumacher on slick tyres for about 3 laps. This obviously ticked Hill off as it showed the difference in talent between the two. After the race he confronted Schumacher immediately and got some earfuls of German lessons from MS as well.

There is also another race : Suzuka 1998, where Damon Hill completely blocked Schumacher (who was fighting for a win from last place) for close to 10 laps cutting across him like nobody's business.

There are a lot of attempts made by the press (specifically British) at painting Hill as some sort of gentlemanly driver. On his bad days he was as ruthless and rash as anyone else. Note : This is not to justify that Schumacher didnt cheat at Jerez 97 or Monaco 06, he did. But Adelaide 94 is simply a non issue and a racing incident.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by hillram

Great Write up Pavan.But one should also not forget the negative side of Michael,which is that,he will do anything to win.

Great point there sir!

Sadly, there is another thread here talking great things about Senna after his movie who was more ruthless than Michael on track and was very vocal about his behaviour on track. Senna did anything that could get him a win, it was sad that he lost his life in a race. However, I really wish he had been alive and got beaten by Michael.

If anyone wants to know how ruthless Senna is on track, watch this video and also notice the green car which finally overtakes Senna

YouTube - ‪F1: Senna, Prost, Schumacher battle‬‏

[myavu]

It is a truth that F1 had lost it’s charm post 2004. Whole lot of regulation changes and retirement of Schumacher at late 2006 transformed F1 like GP2 series.

I am a diehard fan of MS and Ferrari. I still watch F1 due to the presence of either or both.

F1 gurus are arguing on cost cutting and made the sport not so technical supreme. There is no continuous innovative deployment program. First double/triple diffuser then driver operated vent to control airflow to rear wing in high speed and now the blown exhaust. Those were very innovative but not sustained continuity. DRS is an excellent innovation. But I feel it is not complete. When following driver's DRS activated the leading driver has to just wait and watch the overtaking. He is like handicapped. Only if he has a quick car he can challenge for a move after DRS zone. (So in 2011 only RB can do it or RB with10 lap old tyre and MM with new tyre can also do it)

If FIA can fix a spending cap and allow teams to do whatever with the available resources and money then we can see some technical innovative F1 racing.

Back to MS. MS is as good as he was in 2006. Only difference is that the current F1 environment had changed drastically. Teams cannot spend the hell out like 400 to 500mn and then in-season testing also banned. If I remember, back in 2004 total testing kms was around 28000. Now it had come down to 8000. BGP was so successful in 2009 due to it’s early 2008 development program and Honda’s huge pocket along with 900 odd employees. But when MS joined MB (after it acquired BGP) the regulation changes, spending cap and testing ban forced MB to design a car with limited resources and was a mid-field car in 2010. Story of 2011 is far better but not as fast as RB or MM and not reliable too. MS lost three Q3 opportunities due to DRS / KERS glitch. If we observe closely, race pace between MS and NR are almost same. But MS car is more vulnerable to all those glitches. In almost all races this year (except Monaco) MS had a fantastic start. At Monaco his anti-stall kicked in and lost traction. But later part he was quicker than NR but unfortunately retired due to fire in Air Box.

I still belive 110% that MS will be in his winning ways and regular podium once MB had a reliable and fast car. Best of luck MS.

I miss the days of tyre war, 1 hour unlimited qualifying laps, fuel and tyre pit-stop with unbelievable race strategies in changing conditions. MS fighting for Wins, podiums! And last but not the least the famous screaming of Steve Slater “Michel Magic!”

Cheers!

Vinu

[good.car-ma]

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

To start off, the penalty MS got at Monaco 2010 is one of the most ridiculous you'll ever see along with the one Hamilton got at Spa 2008 and Alonso's penalty at Monza 2006.

If you did watch those years (94,95) you'll realize that Hill was responsible for more crashes with Schumacher than the other way round. I know, hard to believe, but Hill drove often like a maniac and in races like Silverstone and Monza 1995 taking both drivers out of the race. He also whined like no tomorrow after the legendary performance Schumacher put up at Spa in 1995 from 16th to 1st place. MS legitimately defended Hill's clumsy attempts at overtaking him on a drenched track, with Hill on full wets and Schumacher on slick tyres for about 3 laps. This obviously ticked Hill off as it showed the difference in talent between the two. After the race he confronted Schumacher immediately and got some earfuls of German lessons from MS as well.

There is also another race : Suzuka 1998, where Damon Hill completely blocked Schumacher (who was fighting for a win from last place) for close to 10 laps cutting across him like nobody's business.

There are a lot of attempts made by the press (specifically British) at painting Hill as some sort of gentlemanly driver. On his bad days he was as ruthless and rash as anyone else. Note : This is not to justify that Schumacher didnt cheat at Jerez 97 or Monaco 06, he did. But Adelaide 94 is simply a non issue and a racing incident.

Maybe so. But i merely wanted to know the source that said Hill had admitted that it was his mistake since i had heard nothing of the sort and the impression has always been that he still carries a grudge. My intention isnt to debate the legitimacy of those moves/incidents because i dont want to post negative stuff on a thread that clearly is intent on glorifying MS

Originally Posted by myavu

It is a truth that F1 had lost it’s charm post 2004. Whole lot of regulation changes and retirement of Schumacher at late 2006 transformed F1 like GP2 series.

Agreed that there have been too many regulation changes in a short span of time but F1's best seasosns have come post 2004.

2005 - a cracker, the best ever according to me - FA and KR going for it all the way with the Merc engines intent on handing victory to FA

2006 - similar but with FA and MS battling it out thanks to McLaren's useless machine that took both their drivers out of the reckning

2007 - nuff said. right up there. LEGENDARY season

2008 - another cracker that went down to the very last corner! and had its share of controversies as well

2009 - Honda's stupidity, the return of Brawn and a new pecking order of Bulls and Brawns. Brilliant season although quite an anticlimax for FA, LH, KR, Ferrari, McLaren fans

2010 - another last race thriller. new races, new teams, youngest champion driving like a veteran. how could it get better?

F1 never lost its charm my friend. I think you took Ferrari's dip in dominance a bit too hard

[myavu]

Originally Posted by good.car-ma

F1 never lost its charm my friend. I think you took Ferrari's dip in dominance a bit too hard

I am not saying that post 2004 F1 was not lively. There was some intense battle and some superb championships. There are lot of such battles going down the wire in other forms of motor sports too. F1 is popular in this planet today due to Ferrari and MS factor. Hope you had red my last paragraph.

Originally Posted by myavu

I miss the days of tyre war, 1 hour unlimited qualifying laps, fuel and tyre pit-stop with unbelievable race strategies in changing conditions. MS fighting for Wins, podiums! And last but not the least the famous screaming of Steve Slater “Michel Magic!”

That kind of technical charm is no more there in F1. Whether Ferrari loose or MS loose. They cannot win the whole life. But F1 as a sport lost it's charm as a technical supreme. This my take.

In 2006 MS lost to FA due to his engine failure at Suzuka (bad luck)

Cheers!

Vinu

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by good.car-ma

2007 - nuff said. right up there. LEGENDARY season

2008 - another cracker that went down to the very last corner! and had its share of controversies as well

2009 - Honda's stupidity, the return of Brawn and a new pecking order of Bulls and Brawns. Brilliant season although quite an anticlimax for FA, LH, KR, Ferrari, McLaren fans

2010 - another last race thriller. new races, new teams, youngest champion driving like a veteran. how could it get better?

F1 never lost its charm my friend. I think you took Ferrari's dip in dominance a bit too hard

I might have to disagree with you again mate

2007 was legendary only because of the rivalry and the spy gate.

2008, either Lewis or Massa could have finished the championship much earlier. It was only because they did too many mistakes that it had to go all the way till the end of the last corner in the last race.

2009, dominated by Brawn in the 1st half and then by RB in the 2nd half.

2010, should have been dominated by the RB like they are doing in 2011 but the driver error and internal politics within RB made it look exciting.

2011, its dominance by the youngest champion & RB. I dont see anything different happening this year. The DRS provides some excitement during the race but there is nothing thats worth mentioning!

IMO, F1 has become too boring from the time FIA started experimenting with the regulations and I want the good old days back!

[good.car-ma]

Originally Posted by myavu

I am not saying that post 2004 F1 was not lively. There was some intense battle and some superb championships. There are lot of such battles going down the wire in other forms of motor sports too. F1 is popular in this planet today due to Ferrari and MS factor. Hope you had red my last paragraph.


That kind of technical charm is no more there in F1. Whether Ferrari loose or MS loose. They cannot win the whole life. But F1 as a sport lost it's charm as a technical supreme. This my take.

In 2006 MS lost to FA due to his engine failure at Suzuka (bad luck)

Cheers!

Vinu

F1 is NOT popular only thanks to Michael Schumacher and Ferrari Please understand that while that may be true for some, particularly those who have started watching in the early 2000s, it is absolutely not the sole reason as you seem to think.

About the technical regulations, I agree wth you. Especially in the light of the new engine regulations, it seems to be losing its image as the pinnacle of technology.

P.S: the less said about Steve Slater the better

Originally Posted by anachronix

I might have to disagree with you again mate

2007 was legendary only because of the rivalry and the spy gate.

2008, either Lewis or Massa could have finished the championship much earlier. It was only because they did too many mistakes that it had to go all the way till the end of the last corner in the last race.

2009, dominated by Brawn in the 1st half and then by RB in the 2nd half.

2010, should have been dominated by the RB like they are doing in 2011 but the driver error and internal politics within RB made it look exciting.

2011, its dominance by the youngest champion & RB. I dont see anything different happening this year. The DRS provides some excitement during the race but there is nothing thats worth mentioning!

IMO, F1 has become too boring from the time FIA started experimenting with the regulations and I want the good old days back!

Whatever the reasons, it kept us engrossed and definitely diodnt lose any charm!! 2011 is an interesting season - so much overtaking and competition yet only one winner almost every race

How can you say 2007 was only based on the McLaren rivalry!! Agreed, that was hugely responsible for the season being intriguing but come on, Raikkonen was untouchable in the back-end of the season and made for some brilliant racing!

[anachronix]

Whatever the reasons, it kept us engrossed and definitely diodnt lose any charm!! 2011 is an interesting season - so much overtaking and competition yet only one winner almost every race

How can you say 2007 was only based on the McLaren rivalry!! Agreed, that was hugely responsible for the season being intriguing but come on, Raikkonen was untouchable in the back-end of the season and made for some brilliant racing!

I agree Raikkonen did some brilliant races! But there was a lot of interest from fans or media only on the off track events rather than racing in 2007 season!

Even if Ferrari dominated 2004 season and Michael won the championship by Spa, there was Kimi standing on top of the podium at Spa after giving a good fight with Michael in an average Mclaren. Need that kind of racing. Not 2 losers fighting for championship in the last corner of the last lap in the last race of the season and call it the best season ever!

In Spain 1996, Michael did some good racing in the wets which is talked about even today. All that we see now is Red Flags & SC when there is little rain on the track. Korea 2010 for an example! It has become artificial racing and the DRS only proves that point!

[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by good.car-ma

Maybe so. But i merely wanted to know the source that said Hill had admitted that it was his mistake since i had heard nothing of the sort and the impression has always been that he still carries a grudge. My intention isnt to debate the legitimacy of those moves/incidents because i dont want to post negative stuff on a thread that clearly is intent on glorifying MS

good.car-ma,
Apologies if I came across too strongly there. Wasnt my intention, just merely pointing out that what we normally read on F1 sites is pretty biased towards British drivers and against drivers from other nationalities. Most of us tend to base our opinions off these channels and tend to think the same way. There definitely is another way to look at Adelaide 94, from Schumacher's perspective that is.

Originally Posted by good.car-ma

Agreed that there have been too many regulation changes in a short span of time but F1's best seasosns have come post 2004.

2005 - a cracker, the best ever according to me - FA and KR going for it all the way with the Merc engines intent on handing victory to FA

2006 - similar but with FA and MS battling it out thanks to McLaren's useless machine that took both their drivers out of the reckning

2007 - nuff said. right up there. LEGENDARY season

2008 - another cracker that went down to the very last corner! and had its share of controversies as well

2009 - Honda's stupidity, the return of Brawn and a new pecking order of Bulls and Brawns. Brilliant season although quite an anticlimax for FA, LH, KR, Ferrari, McLaren fans

2010 - another last race thriller. new races, new teams, youngest champion driving like a veteran. how could it get better?

F1 never lost its charm my friend. I think you took Ferrari's dip in dominance a bit too hard

Fully agreed, I think the years since 2007 specially have been mega exciting with the exception of 2009. F1 has been superb since MS's retirement. His retirement did not create as big a hole as I'd imagined, and this is also due to the fact that we have two superb talents in Hamilton and Vettel on this grid making up for the lack of Schumacher.

Anyone who didnt jump off their seats in the season ending races of Brazil 2007, Brazil 2008 - boy oh boy this one goes down in history as the greatest season finale of all time in any sport, and Abu Dhabi 2010, is not a motorracing fan at all IMHO !