[Hatari]

Originally Posted by anachronix

Can you explain more on the innovation thats keeping the other teams in front of Ferrari mate?

Not just in front, but very close behind as well chief!

To begin with, when was the last time you heard other teams try to copy what Ferrari have done?
Think it was in 2008 with the hole in the Nose.

This fact itself offers immense insight into Ferrari being behind on the 'out of the box' thinking race.

We only here of other teams : Renault's front exits exhausts, RB's exhaust systems, RB's "flexi wings" & aero capabilities, Williams's low lying gearbox, Mercedes super efficient DRS

As an Alonso fan, hope they sort out they aero/wind tunnel problems.
Ferrari beating Red Bull this year though looks almost impossible.

[ra'ul M]

Originally Posted by amrisharm

What ferrari is trying to point out is not specific to a particular season. I am sure you have been following f1 for a while now so think of how things were 10 years ago and how restrictive things are now. Thats what they mean.

There is a clear and precise trend happening is F1, As the rules get more tight and less and less room is left for engineering and aerodynamic innovation, the major auto manufacturers seem to be exiting at the same time. This is no mere coincidence, it is a fact that f1 is moving towards standardized cars and engines. So car companies that want to compete with one another to come up with innovations to beat each other on the race track and use that same innovative ideas to better their road going cars are opting out.

Totally agree with that.
I could be wrong here, but I feel that the major problems in the sport had started somewhere during the global recession when everyone started hating opulence, particularly in the case of F1 because it is one of the most expensive sports in the world. Manufacturers withdrew from the sport and FIA on its part brought in counter measures to save the sport itself.
But, what is the point of this restricted racing? Companies like Ferrari and Mclaren are built around their racing pedigree. If the sport has to survive it has to give the manufacturers complete freedom or else scrap F1 altogether . What is the point of a race when there are 101 restrictions on how the horses are bred?

[ACM]

F1 tries to make the manufacturers bring in technologies that can within 2-3 years of introduction in F1 make it to the mainline. Hence to focus on smaller engines and regeneration technologies. The current format is indeed good for F1.

Ferrari typically sells larger engines cars and certain directions for F1 may not help them much and incontrast Mercedese, Renault, etc may benefit from these are their cars are more mainline than those of ferrari. But nothing really stops Ferrari from passing these innovations down to Fiat which is the parent.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by Hatari

Not just in front, but very close behind as well chief!

To begin with, when was the last time you heard other teams try to copy what Ferrari have done?
Think it was in 2008 with the hole in the Nose.

This fact itself offers immense insight into Ferrari being behind on the 'out of the box' thinking race.

We only here of other teams : Renault's front exits exhausts, RB's exhaust systems, RB's "flexi wings" & aero capabilities, Williams's low lying gearbox, Mercedes super efficient DRS

As an Alonso fan, hope they sort out they aero/wind tunnel problems.
Ferrari beating Red Bull this year though looks almost impossible.

So Ferrari was bringing something innovative every other year that was being copied by all the teams? Look at F2004, looking at that car nobody would even imagine how many records it broke in 2004. Its an effecient packaging, innovation doesnt pay all the time. Its basically the design approach of a team and they do whats best for them. Same with RB, its an overall package thats showing efficiency rather than just the flexi wings!

Mclaren were rumored to have a octopus setup exhaust that they were testing. They couldnt complete a full race simulation through the whole of winter. Finally they copied RB's exhaust solution and voila they are there fighting RB in front.

Ferrari is the only team to have the pushrod suspension this season and still have an excellent packaging at the rear. I dont see them to be too faraway from RB & Mclaren. Massa & Vettel on a similar strategy in China, Massa finished 8 seconds behind Vettel and he always stayed close all through the race. They are not bad in the race, they have a lot to improve with their one lap pace. I am sure the team will figure it out in Turkey. They were in a much worse position last year around this time and they bounced back well to take the fight to the end!

Originally Posted by ACM

F1 tries to make the manufacturers bring in technologies that can within 2-3 years of introduction in F1 make it to the mainline. Hence to focus on smaller engines and regeneration technologies. The current format is indeed good for F1.

Ferrari typically sells larger engines cars and certain directions for F1 may not help them much and incontrast Mercedese, Renault, etc may benefit from these are their cars are more mainline than those of ferrari. But nothing really stops Ferrari from passing these innovations down to Fiat which is the parent.

Why not a V10 or a V8 that can be more fuel efficient and also becomes more affordable because of some F1 innovation? Is it the smaller engine thats always the solution?

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by anachronix

Same with RB, its an overall package thats showing efficiency rather than just the flexi wings!

Pl read my post carefully. I mention aero capabilities (now is that not overall??)
A good package overall goes without saying. Even Ferrari have that. But NOTHING MORE to put them into the lead[/quote]

Ferrari is the only team to have the pushrod suspension this season and still have an excellent packaging at the rear. I dont see them to be too faraway from RB & Mclaren. Massa & Vettel on a similar strategy in China, Massa finished 8 seconds behind Vettel and he always stayed close all through the race. They are not bad in the race, they have a lot to improve with their one lap pace. I am sure the team will figure it out in Turkey. They were in a much worse position last year around this time and they bounced back well to take the fight to the end!

Dont understand why everybody keeps bringing up Vettel's pace (or lack of it) in China and not mention Webber.
Look at what Webber did with a 3 stop and do the math (or are you expecting Vettel to get his strategy wrong for EVERY RACE ?). Then add KERS.
What do u get? I get World champion 2011

[anachronix]

Dont understand why everybody keeps bringing up Vettel's pace (or lack of it) in China and not mention Webber.
Look at what Webber did with a 3 stop and do the math (or are you expecting Vettel to get his strategy wrong for EVERY RACE ?). Then add KERS.
What do u get? I get World champion 2011

Vettel did run in all the 3 sessions in Qualifying, while Webber had the luxury of more fresh tires for the race since he was out in Q1 and he was on the 3 stop strategy that was best for that weekend and also the fresh tires that he saved on Saturday that helped him do more laps compared to other front runners. It was his 'Never Give Up' drive all through the race that made his podium special!

So if I have to compare Massa with another RB, its only Vettel who was on a similar strategy to Massa!

Webber having KERS issue on all the other races needs a different thread to discuss

[bhagathgowda]

When Renault, Honda etc., came up with the idea of breakaway series, Ferrari supported FIA only because the rules that time around were very favorable to them (unlimited testing, unlimited investments etc).

Now the scene has changed and everyone has been asked to develop cars within a given set of parameters. This is where true engineering comes into picture. I believe right now Ferrari is struggling in this dept as well as strategy planning they surely are missing Brawn.

Systems like KERS will actually make our daily drives much greener and efficient. Now we have systems similar to KERS in cars costing as less as 20 lakhs. Just imagine how beneficial this system can be once these F1 teams master the KERS. Who knows in 10-15 yrs time these systems would make way to cars costing as less as 5-7 lakhs.

For me F1 should not be just a race of the drivers, it is the innovation, engineering that matters.

[Hatari]

This is from an article on ESPN F1 :

There has been criticism in the press that Ferrari has not been innovative enough with the F150 Italia, while its rivals have pushed the boundaries of car design.

"Unfortunately, we cannot claim this accusation is entirely without foundation," Tombazis conceded. "At the moment, we don't have a winning car and, on those of our competitors we can see innovative solutions introduced in a more aggressive fashion than we have done. Maybe we were a bit too passive in our approach: we did not push hard enough in some areas of development and unfortunately, the results can be seen on track. Now we are reacting and we want to rediscover the spirit of innovation which maybe we have lost a bit over the past two years.

"Despite that, I am convinced that Ferrari will be competitive again. We have had a disappointing start to the season. In order to recover from it, I think it is important to understand what mistakes we made and we have analysed this with much honesty and open mindedness. I am therefore convinced that we can get back to winning again."

[2theMax]

Originally Posted by anachronix

Can you explain more on the innovation thats keeping the other teams in front of Ferrari mate?

One word. Adrian Newey.

Ferrari stop whining and go back to work. We haven't seen anything great from this team after Massa's Championship loss to Hamilton.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by 2theMax

One word. Adrian Newey.

I missed that part dude, all I knew was a man by name Adrian Newey works for Redbull. Never knew any innovation by that name

Ferrari stop whining and go back to work. We haven't seen anything great from this team after Massa's Championship loss to Hamilton.

And I remember a red car that was fighting for driver title last year with the bulls!

[2theMax]

Originally Posted by anachronix

I missed that part dude, all I knew was a man by name Adrian Newey works for Redbull. Never knew any innovation by that name

You sure did miss that didn't you ? . I was referring the AD's that has propelled RB's ahead. Ferrari has been sorely missing the brains on AD front for the past years and a bunch of jokers leading the strategy front has made things worse.

Originally Posted by anachronix

And I remember a red car that was fighting for driver title last year with the bulls!

Were they ? Then my F1's bad . Alonso was on a limping horse last year IMHO. Hope they pull up their socks fast, till then

[9thsphinx]

Is it just me or does anyone else think Ferrari has lost its charm since Schumi's retirement and/or joined the Mercedes team?

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by 9thsphinx

Is it just me or does anyone else think Ferrari has lost its charm since Schumi's retirement and/or joined the Mercedes team?

Mercedes has lost its charm since he joined!

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by 2theMax

You sure did miss that didn't you ? . I was referring the AD's that has propelled RB's ahead. Ferrari has been sorely missing the brains on AD front for the past years and a bunch of jokers leading the strategy front has made things worse.

The major rule change happened in 2009 & 2010. The teams that benefited from this, those who had the brain to get around the rules rather than bringing anything worth to be called innovative!

Were they ? Then my F1's bad . Alonso was on a limping horse last year IMHO. Hope they pull up their socks fast, till then

That limping horse was the only horse that went to the last race of the season with the lead fighting the bulls!

I agree Ferrari has lot of work to do, but they are not whiners. Mclaren is still whining about the flexi wings and now after all the new tests introduced by FIA, the Redbull wing is found to be the less flexing wing (with a limit of allowed 20mm flex, the RB's front wing dint flex beyond 16mm while the other cars were really on the mark). Now Mclaren has started whining about a different engine mapping the RB could use for qualifying. May be you should look at a different garage for whiners!

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by anachronix

I agree Ferrari has lot of work to do, but they are not whiners.

Not yet so far this season.