[architect]

Originally Posted by desdemona

I would want to argue strongly with anyone who claims that even the palio stile is an intrinsically unreliable or troublesome car. Or that servicing it is some sort of traumatic experience of callous ASS.

The Palio is not an inherently troublesome car. It has stood with me through thick and thin whenever I wanted it to. It has made it to the Service Centre 350 km away on a leaking radiator that was fixed with M-seal. It has been running on a leaking power steering assembly (which is just topped up by me every weekend with PS fluid) for 10 months. It has (touch wood!) never given up, not even on a 1250 km non-stop Indore-Delhi run over 23 hours, with that leaking power steering steering!

The point of my post is that it takes a lot of effort from the owner's end to keep the car in near-perfect running conditions. Due to the reasons I have cited above, the car has taken a little more than normal effort from my end to keep it going that way, primarily due to parts and competence issues.

Whether you can afford to give that kind of time and attention to the car and its maintenance is a personal issue. I have a 9 to 5 job, a fledgling private practice, ageing parents, wife, hobbies and therefore, while I have the inclination to take the effort to keep the car in perfect condition mechanically, I am unable to look after its cosmetic issues. That's just me.

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

On steering, I don't find a hydraulic system failure prone. They are almost as reliable as EPS.

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

Never figured out Fiat's deal with hydraulic clutches. This is really complicated to fix.

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

On variable compressors, this is a good thing. I am sure a lot of high end cars use this.

Neither of the three are bad things to use or experience, sandeep. I enjoy the overall driving experience created by these and other quirky Fiat things. However, you have to agree that some of these are complicated to service, expensive to replace and difficult to repair in parts.

[desdemona]

Originally Posted by architect

The Palio is not an inherently troublesome car. It has stood with me through thick and thin whenever I wanted it to. It has made it to the Service Centre 350 km away on a leaking radiator that was fixed with M-seal. It has been running on a leaking power steering assembly (which is just topped up by me every weekend with Pd fluid) for 10 months. It has (touch wood!) never given up, not even on a 1250 km non-stop Indore-Delhi run over 23 hours, with that leaking power steering steering!

The point of my post is that it takes a lot of effort from the owner's end to keep the car in near-perfect running conditions. Due to the reasons I have cited above, the car has taken a little more than normal effort from my end to keep it going that way, primarily due to parts and competence issues.

Whether you can afford to give that kind of time and attention to the car and its maintenance is a personal issue. I have a 9 to 5 job, a fledgling private practice, ageing parents, wife, hobbies and therefore, while I have the inclination to take the effort to keep the car in perfect condition mechanically, I am unable to look after its cosmetic issues. That's just me.







Neither of the three are bad things to use or experience, sandeep. I enjoy the overall driving experience created by these and other quirky Fiat things. However, you have to agree that some of these are complicated to service, expensive to replace and difficult to repair in parts.

Here's hoping your next Fiat will give you the pleasures of the old Palio AND few or none of the issues with its maintenance. Here's hoping for me too: will be replacing one of my fiats with another later this year.

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by architect

Neither of the three are bad things to use or experience, sandeep. I enjoy the overall driving experience created by these and other quirky Fiat things. However, you have to agree that some of these are complicated to service, expensive to replace and difficult to repair in parts.

On the clutch Yes. On cost, Yes again. As for the power steering and variable compressor for the air conditioner, you are pretty much in the same boat for a EPS and rotary compressor unit, when it comes to part failure. I don't think there is a question of repair in either case. If it croaks, you have to replace the dead part and this applies even for the modern generation EPS and rotary compressor units.

A fng make look at the possibility of repair. I doubt on authorized service outlets.

[Biraj]

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

Ford used compressed air to clean the electrical contact points. I am sure Fiat will have this at the service center.

Finally, I can be more direct with FASS while getting issues sorted. I purchased an ELM327 scanner. On scanning it gave the error code p0530. Google says it's related to the AC pressure sensor thus, the pressure is either too low or too high. To prevent damage to the compressor, the ECU shuts it off.


EDIT: In other news, 27K KMs done.

[desdemona]

Originally Posted by Biraj

Finally, I can be more direct with FASS while getting issues sorted. I purchased an ELM327 scanner. On scanning it gave the error code p0530. Google says it's related to the AC pressure sensor thus, the pressure is either too low or too high. To prevent damage to the compressor, the ECU shuts it off.


EDIT: In other news, 27K KMs done.

DIY !! Good stuff! Setting the pace for the FASS. Now please tell us what is this scanner, where is it available, how much does it cost and how to operate it.

[Biraj]

Originally Posted by desdemona

DIY !! Good stuff! Setting the pace for the FASS. Now please tell us what is this scanner, where is it available, how much does it cost and how to operate it.

Thanks Desdemona,

This is the device that I have purchased: Link to listing on e-bay

It's available at even lesser cost at DX.com but dealing with an Indian dealer (even for Chinese products) seemed better. It's very simple to operate. Just connect it to the OBD port and then pair with a Bluetooth enable device. It works on Android as well as iOS. You will need an app to scan the ECU. Torque seems like a good app but I am struggling to purchase it as Google-play store is not accepting AMEX cards for payment in INR. So, had to try a free app (Carista). Luckily, it managed to fetch the error code.

[lapis_lazuli]

Originally Posted by Biraj

Finally, I can be more direct with FASS while getting issues sorted.

Well, best of luck! If they have to do a job, they will; with or without the scanner results. I am telling you, its DIY way or the highway: mutually exclusive. When you are not on the highway, you need a DIY to put it back on the highway that is...!

Jokes apart: congrats. You are one of the few, who got the ELM to work effortlessly. Let us know more and post a few screenshots for the community. My car has a strange hot start problem as well. It starts fine when cold, half a crank. When hot, at red-lights or after a small break en-route: it takes a long crank or multiple cranks. Need to investigate. Sherlock is with you !

[architect]

Originally Posted by lapis_lazuli

My car has a strange hot start problem as well. It starts fine when cold, half a crank. When hot, at red-lights or after a small break en-route: it takes a long crank or multiple cranks. Need to investigate. Sherlock is with you !

Ditto for my Palio. Cold start is quick, starting when warm takes time. This has been going on for tens of thousands of kilometers. No repercussions otherwise. The dangerous thing is that when the exact same thing happened on our Alto, the starter motor gave up.

[Biraj]

Few updates:

1. 28,000 KMs done
2. The overdue oil-leak issue solved

The oil leak was first observed by Ishender at Oberoi in December last year. At that point Oberoi guys informed me that they had erroneously filled extra quantity of gear-oil during the clutch replacement thus, there's nothing to worry.

I gave it for servicing at Kashyap Okhla in February this year. I asked them to check the leakage but they said there's no leakage. The leakage again got identified by Bridgestone guys while they were checking the alignment.

Oberoi informed that the seal has to be changed and they will do it under extended warranty however, they couldn't arrange the seal in almost two months. Tired of following up with them and their devil-may-care attitude, I took my car to Kashyap Okhla. They told me that the seal is in stock but they will need two days for the work. I asked the manager about extended warranty on which he asked if I had reported the issue earlier. I told him that it has been raised on multiple occasions.

They picked the car from my home on Wednesday and took three instead of two days as the seal wasn't available in their Okhla center and they had to get it from Noida. It's a different story that they didn't work on the car on Day 1 despite the car being with them since 11.30 AM.

I went to take the car on Friday evening. There was a terrible storm in Delhi thus, both their team and I were in a hurry to get things done. The SA informed me about the work done and gave me an invoice of Rs 5028. I asked him about the extended warranty but he said that extended warranty gets approved only for major failures like engine, etc. I didn't want to waste more time thus, paid the invoice and left. They didn't mention any charges on job-card or on any of the subsequent calls till point of delivery.

I just checked the invoice, out of INR 5000, the parts constitute only Rs 543. The remaining Rs 4,500 is towards labour and taxes. I don't mind paying the amount as long as it's the fair amount to pay, and Fiat's SOP for all warranty cases is standard. Unfortunately, there are cases (even on T-bhp) where regular wear&tear parts like brake-pads, clutch, shocker mounts, etc have been changed under warranty/extended-warranty but a bearing/seal deep inside the engine getting bust within 28K KMs is considered wear&tear and not covered under warranty. The bigger issue is that one of the dealers (Oberoi) was ready to change it under warranty but didn't have the part. The other one which had the part didn't consider it under warranty. Shouldn't warranty policies be standard? Why should there be variance between different dealers?

Here's a copy of the charges towards the repair.

While my love/admiration for Crusoe will continue but I doubt whether I will buy another Fiat in future. Spending money on maintaining the car is fine but spending money on parts/services that will be considered under warranty for some but not for others, is not fine. Moreover, both Oberoi and Kashyap seem like two sides of the same coin. Two equally demotivated teams with misplaced understanding of customer satisfaction. I had mentioned 3-4 issues along with the oil-leakage but they could only focus on one in 3 days. Guess, it's time to head the FNG way because they will at least work after taking the money.

[desdemona]

Hi Biraj! Sorry to hear your blues.

In your experience, are not Fiat's warranty policies in practice and not just in theory the best in the industry, along with Tata?

I have 3 fiats currently, two of them 5 years-old, and my Dad has had a Tata, and we have several other brands in the extended family, and of course friends' cars.

The rhetorical question above sums up my sense of fiat being terrific with warranty claims, to the point of being shall we say 'generous' if you're the kind to get Fiat India involved, are an old Fiat owner etc.

Warranty claims are often highly debatable, Fiat does a far better job on this dimension of ASS support than most other car firms, not excluding the East Asian ones.

I guess you're more cheesed off by their underperformance on other fronts, than actually on the uniformity of application of (usually debatable) warranty policies?

No doubt, the FASS even the big ones like Kashyap and Oberoi surely need further improvement, just improving the availibility of spares will not be enough for the sorts of people Fiat is trying to appeal to in its marketing.

cheers, man

[lapis_lazuli]

Originally Posted by Biraj

Few updates:

1. 28,000 KMs done
2. The overdue oil-leak issue solved......

Guess, it's time to head the FNG way because they will at least work after taking the money.

Quite depressing I must say! I have been witness to outrageous warranty claims been honoured, genuine defects shooed off as "wear and tear" and also, as you are aware too, cannibalism, or at least, attempts at it !

That we caught them red handed, is a different story!

As I mentioned in some other post, it ultimately boils down to how much bull you are willing to withstand! Rest, all ASS are more or less same, except, the pressure of performance on dealers of slow moving brands, is more than others! Its true: DIY or FNG after ext Warranty or earlier even!

Some people have always and will continue to, get "good" service from ASS, post it even. What we don't know, is their benchmark for the grades or what rapport they share with the ASS! You might consider writing to Fiat, citing the case, especially where they are trying to pull a fast one, like, extended warranty covers only expensive parts blah!

Originally Posted by desdemona

In your experience, are not Fiat's warranty policies in practice and not just in theory the best in the industry, along with Tata?

I have 3 fiats currently, two of them 5 years-old, and my Dad has had a Tata, and we have several other brands in the extended family, and of course friends' cars.

The rhetorical question above sums up my sense of fiat being terrific with warranty claims, to the point of being shall we say 'generous' if you're the kind to get Fiat India involved, are an old Fiat owner etc.

Hi, I am a puny Punto owner! My answer to your question: NO! Its just normal: you replace a part if it is bust, as per the contract!
If a system is people and relationship dependent, its no system at all! Why do we need to pull strings with Arun Rajput or Mangesh, to ensure parts arrive? I have had both good and bad experiences with FIAT, after a horrible accident that I met with last year, the car has been nicely rebuilt, but not without the share of frustration with the ASS! They made "mistakes" in the parts invoice, which I could correct because I had access to e-per and prices! That was to the tune of high 4 figures.

So, generosity has a price, which someone else might end paying up! It's good that you have had a great time with your FIATs! Most of the owners do, that's why we buy cars, for that matter!

My two cents: let's not classify any ASS as good or bad! Forum post referrals give rise to high hopes and heartburns later on, for some!

Just 2 questions: Where is the rhetoric? And on an extremely light note : Who are you ?

[moralfibre]

Mod note: Thread moved to the Long term ownership reviews section.

[desdemona]

Originally Posted by lapis_lazuli

Quite depressing I must say! I have been witness to outrageous warranty claims been honoured, genuine defects shooed off as "wear and tear" and also, as you are aware too, cannibalism, or at least, attempts at it !

That we caught them red handed, is a different story!

As I mentioned in some other post, it ultimately boils down to how much bull you are willing to withstand! Rest, all ASS are more or less same, except, the pressure of performance on dealers of slow moving brands, is more than others! Its true: DIY or FNG after ext Warranty or earlier even!

Some people have always and will continue to, get "good" service from ASS, post it even. What we don't know, is their benchmark for the grades or what rapport they share with the ASS! You might consider writing to Fiat, citing the case, especially where they are trying to pull a fast one, like, extended warranty covers only expensive parts blah!




Hi, I am a puny Punto owner! My answer to your question: NO! Its just normal: you replace a part if it is bust, as per the contract!
If a system is people and relationship dependent, its no system at all! Why do we need to pull strings with Arun Rajput or Mangesh, to ensure parts arrive?

My two cents: let's not classify any ASS as good or bad! Forum post referrals give rise to high hopes and heartburns later on, for some!

Just 2 questions: Where is the rhetoric? And on an extremely light note : Who are you ?

Hi. Now, is that a 'rhetorical question'? If so, it needs no answer, does it?

Man, I seem to have provoked some annoyance, perhaps because you've had to suffer FASS far more painfully than I have, what with your accident and all, and Biraj is none too happy either, how could he be?

All I stated was the valid generalization that Fiat's warranty claims policies ON THE GROUND and not only on paper, are industry best.

I am not saying that FASS as a whole is good or bad. You are right about experiences with ASS being too much a function of 'relationships' and expectations, to be taken seriously when reported on the internet.

But I will say that to expect, in India, that what's promised on paper will automatically be honoured is to believe in magic. There is no choice but to cultivate an informal equation with the ASS personnel, and to escalate if necessary. That's just how it is. But yes, spares availability needs further improvement: why did Biraj have to wait 2 months for that damn oil seal?

You're right about the slower selling brands putting dealers' ASS wings under pressure for profits, leading to inadequacies and even malpractices. I for one am hopeful that as Fiat's sales keep picking up (new Punto, Avventura etc) we will see improvements in ASS practices from the dealers.

btw, I when I saw your signature, Biraj,: UTOPIAN desire of a Hyundai Linea T-jet! Hyundai doesn't, cannot and will not make anything as good, and so we must all hope Fiat keeps further improving its ASS, amen!

[arjab]

Originally Posted by Biraj

Few updates:

Here's a copy of the charges towards the repair.

Was curious to know, what does this line mean? "Smart Repair work etc..."

Did the workshop outsource the work to a 3rd party and if so is it a OEM certified partner ensuring work is carried out with all warranty clauses intact?

Many OEM's do it. Very common in the case of alternators, starter motors et al when the physical part is sent to Lucas (the most common supplier in India) but then they have the necessary permissions from OEM w.r.t. warranty.

Usually dealer covers such stuff under "goodwill claim" after getting an ok from the OEM's regional or national after sales head. the amount is also not that huge for an OEM to deny "goodwill". Maybe you should escalate this to Fiat and extract some discount vouchers for your next scheduled service.

[Biraj]

Originally Posted by lapis_lazuli

As I mentioned in some other post, it ultimately boils down to how much bull you are willing to withstand! Rest, all ASS are more or less same, except, the pressure of performance on dealers of slow moving brands, is more than others! Its true: DIY or FNG after ext Warranty or earlier even!

+1 to what you mentioned. Let's start honing our skills and get better tools for DIY.

Originally Posted by desdemona

Man, I seem to have provoked some annoyance, perhaps because you've had to suffer FASS far more painfully than I have, what with your accident and all, and Biraj is none too happy either, how could he be?

I have definitely read about Fiat's generosity on this as well as other Fiat specific forums. My objection is towards the level of subjectivity in their approval clauses. I can understand that there will be exceptions but there at least has to be some system/process in place. Do they expect every customer to slog it out with Mangesh and team, else just pay? Another major irritant is the way they approach their work. In the past couple of months, my car has been shuddering in low gears, and I asked them to check the condition of clutch and pressure plate when they repair the gear-box. The issue is still there and the SA has no response towards checking the pressure plate (I specifically mentioned it in job card). If I take the car again, they will again take the same amount of time to open the gear-box and charge similar amount for the effort towards it, and the chances are that it too won't be covered under extended warranty. Does that explain why I am disappointed with Fiat's service? There are a number of posts in this forum where I have been trying to convince naysayers that Fiat is improving but such a lackadaisical attitude from two key dealers has dented my confidence on Fiat. I own one, my wife owns one, four of my best friends own one. I am just keeping my fingers crossed that they don't face any issues else, I would have to eat my own words of recommendation.

btw, I when I saw your signature, Biraj,: UTOPIAN desire of a Hyundai Linea T-jet! Hyundai doesn't, cannot and will not make anything as good, and so we must all hope Fiat keeps further improving its ASS, amen!

Have been to Hyundai's R&D facility in Korea and have experienced what they are capable of. I also own a Hyundai Santro Xing. In the 11 years of ownership, I can't think of one horrible experience compared to many with FASS within the past 6 months. At the rate at which Hyundai is improving and the seriousness with which they listen to the voice of customer, it might not be long before they have a product as capable as Linea with a better service backup. Fiat will always remain close to my heart, and Crusoe will remain as special as it has always been. Thus, I also wish that FASS improves. Amen!

Originally Posted by arjab

Was curious to know, what does this line mean? "Smart Repair work etc..."

Did the workshop outsource the work to a 3rd party and if so is it a OEM certified partner ensuring work is carried out with all warranty clauses intact?

As per the SA, the bearing is fixed by using a Lathe machine. So, they have to get it done through an external vendor. He said it's nothing major and doesn't affect anything.