[ajmat]

Originally Posted by FlatOut

As someone once said, every French car is a sports car at heart - it has to be, given their roads..

I still maintain that the best, most tactile car that I ever owned was a Peugeot 309 SRi - a 309 with 205GTi mechanicals. Since it was not dressed up to thrill, it really was an ultimate stealth machine. Cops and thieves never glanced at it

[FlatOut]

Originally Posted by ajmat

I still maintain that the best, most tactile car that I ever owned was a Peugeot 309 SRi - a 309 with 205GTi mechanicals. Since it was not dressed up to thrill, it really was an ultimate stealth machine. Cops and thieves never glanced at it

In the UK the SRi was a little less hot than the 309GTi, and no doubt all the better for it. I have a feeling the 309 was designed by Simca, and not Peugeot, hence the different numbering. Lovely simple and effective motor car - I agree with you about anything which is a 'wolf in sheep's clothing'!

[supercars]

Originally Posted by Viraat13

Lovely stuff. I have a E220 in the exact same colour with the black strip on the bumper. It is of course an India spec, type II model. I recently had a short affair with a E250D Automatic. Manuals are the norm here and automatics are extremely rare, be it the E220 or the E250D (which were the only two models sold in India. The rest are all direct imports). I recently got a spectacular 300E in Mystic Blue, which is a rare Mercedes colour in any model, it's done just 77,000 kms.

My E220 is almost "run-in". It's 1700 kms away from the 100,000 mark.
Having said that, Indian conditions are very very harsh on any vehicle. So while a car that has done 480,000 kms in Europe, still can do another 480,000, a W124 that has done close to 500,000 kms here, is probably on it's last legs. Let's not forget that the extreme heat, high humidity, poor roads end up taking their toll.

Anyway, your car seems to be in good condition, and I wish you many miles of happy motoring.

Hey if you come to Mumbai, I would love to drive your car

Originally Posted by Viraat13

Lovely stuff. I have a E220 in the exact same colour with the black strip on the bumper. It is of course an India spec, type II model. I recently had a short affair with a E250D Automatic. Manuals are the norm here and automatics are extremely rare, be it the E220 or the E250D (which were the only two models sold in India. The rest are all direct imports). I recently got a spectacular 300E in Mystic Blue, which is a rare Mercedes colour in any model, it's done just 77,000 kms.

My E220 is almost "run-in". It's 1700 kms away from the 100,000 mark.
Having said that, Indian conditions are very very harsh on any vehicle. So while a car that has done 480,000 kms in Europe, still can do another 480,000, a W124 that has done close to 500,000 kms here, is probably on it's last legs. Let's not forget that the extreme heat, high humidity, poor roads end up taking their toll.

Anyway, your car seems to be in good condition, and I wish you many miles of happy motoring.

Hey if you come to Mumbai, I would love to drive your car

Originally Posted by ajmat

I still maintain that the best, most tactile car that I ever owned was a Peugeot 309 SRi - a 309 with 205GTi mechanicals. Since it was not dressed up to thrill, it really was an ultimate stealth machine. Cops and thieves never glanced at it

You know where the 309 Sri is now(In India) ?

Well Mr. Flatout. I can say one thing for sure. You are not as flatout as you think you are. The Mercedes W124 can pretty much stay up with ANY car if you know how to drive well.
If you love the French cars so much and hate German cars so much just switch over.

I also love French Peugeot 309 but I am sure my W124 is much better.


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[Viraat13]

Originally Posted by supercars

Hey if you come to Mumbai, I would love to drive your car

I doubt I'd ever DRIVE to Mumbai. I'm sure there are plenty of W124 owners in Mumbai who are on this forum.

Originally Posted by supercars

You know where the 309 Sri is now(In India) ?

Well Mr. Flatout. I can say one thing for sure. You are not as flatout as you think you are. The Mercedes W124 can pretty much stay up with ANY car if you know how to drive well.
If you love the French cars so much and hate German cars so much just switch over.

I also love French Peugeot 309 but I am sure my W124 is much better.

Now now. Let's not be so hasty. If Flatout didn't like the W124, why would he own one? Or multiples (as he has indicated).

While I find it hard to believe that the W124 would have trouble keeping up with something else, this IS India after all, so we don't have too much competition or skill in the competition. An agile little car with a good power to weight ratio, should in theory be better in the bends than this large German.

Anyway, the fact remains that I don't have any experience with a French car, so I shall reserve my final judgement till then.

[supercars]

I see that many 124 owners underestimate their car quiet a bit.

It could also be a specific skill level that you need to get your 124 at the top end. My car has been in the family ever since new and it is was our First car so I am very attached to it.

If you think that Indians are shit drivers then you have seen none of the Best. There are some very nice modified cars also out there(I do mean modified and not some stupid body kit).

Ask anyone and I am sure even you will agree that theory and practical are not similar at all.

I also read somewhere that the Metal Quality on pre 1992 E Class was better but in my frank opinion it is the other way round. The "Indian" W124 seems to be far superior than the Older Version.

[Viraat13]

Originally Posted by supercars

I see that many 124 owners underestimate their car quiet a bit.

It could also be a specific skill level that you need to get your 124 at the top end. My car has been in the family ever since new and it is was our First car so I am very attached to it.

If you think that Indians are shit drivers then you have seen none of the Best. There are some very nice modified cars also out there(I do mean modified and not some stupid body kit).

Ask anyone and I am sure even you will agree that theory and practical are not similar at all.

I also read somewhere that the Metal Quality on pre 1992 E Class was better but in my frank opinion it is the other way round. The "Indian" W124 seems to be far superior than the Older Version.

I don't underestimate it at all. I'm just being realistic. If I face off against a BMW 535i at a red light drag, I just know for a fact that if the driver is as capable as I am, I'll lose. But do I? No.
I've won a red light race against a Honda Civic in my E250D AUTOMATIC. That tells you something. I'm not saying that all Indian drivers are shit, but I'm talking about the majority.
Heck, I beat Honda Accords and the likes in my Opel Corsa on a regular basis, only because the people driving them do not know how to extract the power from their cars.

Don't let your attachment fool you into believing that it's the best car. I'm very attached to my W124's as well, but that doesn't mean I'd go red light racing with a modern car with large displacement and an equally skilled driver and expect to win. It's just not going to happen. Not in my E220, in any case.

I agree with you on the theory and practical bit. I did very clearly say this —

Originally Posted by Viraat13

Anyway, the fact remains that I don't have any experience with a French car, so I shall reserve my final judgement till then.

I might agree with you on the quality point. My E220 feels much tighter than the 300E. I sit in/drive both cars on a fairly regular basis. So I'm qualified enough to make my own call. Having said that, it could be that the Bilstein shocks, 17 inch rims and subsequently, the low profile tyres cause the ride to be a little firm which naturally means that more bumps filter through to the cabin, which in turn would make the Indian E220 feel more solid. But again, it's a personal call.

[supercars]

The W124 because of it's weight will find it very hard to drag race with other lighter cars. btw off topic Why Red Light ? I thought we would go on green.

Yes you are right. I am very attached to my car and it has been able to do everything I wanted it to. I also understand it very well so I understand the strength and weakness of the car.

[honeybee]

Originally Posted by FlatOut

I look forward to seeing a Nano in the flesh. Tata considered things very carefully, it seems, with elements from the BMC Mini and 50s Fiat 500. I don't like small wheels when roads are potholed - how do they cope?

Sorry to interrupt the flow of discussion with a little off-topic post. The Nano copes very well with the potholes. Four wheels planted in the corners of the vehicle, a high ground clearance (180mm) and short wheelbase do a good job to prevent the underside from scraping. It's a marvel of a car, really.

Incidentally I came across this thread after searching for W124s, and found this query of yours, so I thought I would provide an owner's view on it.

[FlatOut]

Originally Posted by honeybee

Sorry to interrupt the flow of discussion with a little off-topic post. The Nano copes very well with the potholes. Four wheels planted in the corners of the vehicle, a high ground clearance (180mm) and short wheelbase do a good job to prevent the underside from scraping. It's a marvel of a car, really.

Incidentally I came across this thread after searching for W124s, and found this query of yours, so I thought I would provide an owner's view on it.

Thanks, it's interesting to know this. Small wheels were the choice of Fiat (500) and BMC (Mini), Citroen and Volkswagen with their 2cv and Beetle chose large diameter ones.

Originally Posted by supercars

I see that many 124 owners underestimate their car quiet a bit.

It could also be a specific skill level that you need to get your 124 at the top end. My car has been in the family ever since new and it is was our First car so I am very attached to it.

Ask anyone and I am sure even you will agree that theory and practical are not similar at all.

I also read somewhere that the Metal Quality on pre 1992 E Class was better but in my frank opinion it is the other way round. The "Indian" W124 seems to be far superior than the Older Version.

Steel quality dropped off badly post 1991/2 for the 124s, so it is quite possible that the Indian-built versions were made from better steel than the later German cars.

I most certainly do not under-estimate my 124s' abilities. As I have mentioned all over this forum, they are a benchmark for simplicity, reliability, quality of design and materials as well as a machine which oozes a quiet class which nothing else can match, today. The jumping wiper mechanism alone is a thing of beauty.

Originally Posted by Viraat13

Now now. Let's not be so hasty. If Flatout didn't like the W124, why would he own one? Or multiples (as he has indicated).

While I find it hard to believe that the W124 would have trouble keeping up with something else, this IS India after all, so we don't have too much competition or skill in the competition. An agile little car with a good power to weight ratio, should in theory be better in the bends than this large German.

Anyway, the fact remains that I don't have any experience with a French car, so I shall reserve my final judgement till then.

It is horses for courses. French cars have a innate ability to corner quickly and accurately, no matter how large they are. German ones do not have the same characteristics in my experience. Not surprising, when you drive on their respective roads. Germans ones are fast and straight, French ones fast and full of curves.

Originally Posted by supercars

Well Mr. Flatout. I can say one thing for sure. You are not as flatout as you think you are. The Mercedes W124 can pretty much stay up with ANY car if you know how to drive well.
If you love the French cars so much and hate German cars so much just switch over.

I also love French Peugeot 309 but I am sure my W124 is much better.

You assume a lot without having a clue as to my sentiments, MrSupercars. But I don't think Peugeots and Mercedes are quite in the same class - one is a cheap family car, the other an expensive executive autobahn-stormer.

Actually, driving a diesel 124 means you are often flatout, in the UK at least, with only 110hp to accelerate a heavy car. But it is a gorgeous 6 cylinder sound when the engine revs build and once up to speed they are very stable and refined. The engines are tuned for high revs, and thrive on them. Many people don't realise it is a diesel engine, without the typical Ricardo pre-combustion chamber knock and turbine-like power delivery.

[Viraat13]

Originally Posted by supercars

btw off topic Why Red Light ? I thought we would go on green.

The term for those kind of drag races is red light racing, I believe. Even though it's supposed to be red light to red light, we don't always come across a situation like that, so it's red light, to whenever one car is left far behind. But yes, always go on green!

Originally Posted by FlatOut

Actually, driving a diesel 124 means you are often flatout, in the UK at least, with only 110hp to accelerate a heavy car. But it is a gorgeous 6 cylinder sound when the engine revs build and once up to speed they are very stable and refined. The engines are tuned for high revs, and thrive on them. Many people don't realise it is a diesel engine, without the typical Ricardo pre-combustion chamber knock and turbine-like power delivery.

I'll vouch for that, even here it's flat out, on most occasions, kick down too is used frequently. I, of course am talking about the automatic E250D.

I have been missing my E250D these past few days. I recently spoke to the current owner and he is quite pleased with it. Anyway, as long as the car is serving someone well..

[honeybee]

Originally Posted by FlatOut

Thanks, it's interesting to know this. Small wheels were the choice of Fiat (500) and BMC (Mini), Citroen and Volkswagen with their 2cv and Beetle chose large diameter ones.

The small wheels also reduce steering effort. Except from standstill to moving, I could rest my wrists in my lap and steer the car with light inputs with the two index fingers. So no power steering required!

Anyways that's enough off topic discussion on the Nano.

[FlatOut]

Originally Posted by honeybee

The small wheels also reduce steering effort. Except from standstill to moving, I could rest my wrists in my lap and steer the car with light inputs with the two index fingers. So no power steering required!

Anyways that's enough off topic discussion on the Nano.

To suggest that small-diameter wheels reduce steering effort is a little short of reality, I'm sorry to say. Vehicle mass is perhaps more important, as is front suspension type. But the Tata Nano is most certainly a brilliant little car. They ought to be sold in the whole of Africa with a few mods, even though they do have small wheels. Better still, Tata is perfectly placed to design a people's car for Africa - it would also sell well in rural India.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by FlatOut

But the Tata Nano is most certainly a brilliant little car. They ought to be sold in the whole of Africa with a few mods, even though they do have small wheels. Better still, Tata is perfectly placed to design a people's car for Africa - it would also sell well in rural India.

So how come the Nano doesn't sell in India and what would make it sell in Africa. I've been in India just over one year now and the number of Nano's I see on the roads is very limited indeed. Nobody seems to want this little car?

So why or what would make it sell in rural India, or anywhere in India for that matter? Why is Tata perfectly placed to design a people's car for Africa? They can't even do it in their home market.

Jeroen

[honeybee]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

So how come the Nano doesn't sell in India and what would make it sell in Africa. I've been in India just over one year now and the number of Nano's I see on the roads is very limited indeed. Nobody seems to want this little car.

The problem is that two wheelers offer much more agility than a four wheelers, so the Nano doesn't appeal to the segment who would anyways go for bikes. And because of Nano's image - Tata having conceptualized it as a poor man's car - those looking to own their second, or even first car overlook its true potential.

If the Nano had been marketed as a competent or better hatch it might have been a different story.

Seriously I feel we need to let the Merc take this space back.

[FlatOut]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

So how come the Nano doesn't sell in India and what would make it sell in Africa. I've been in India just over one year now and the number of Nano's I see on the roads is very limited indeed. Nobody seems to want this little car?

So why or what would make it sell in rural India, or anywhere in India for that matter? Why is Tata perfectly placed to design a people's car for Africa? They can't even do it in their home market.

Jeroen

The concensus on this forum seems to be that Tata expected the car to sell itself, it didn't and was labelled as and is now known for being a cheap car. If you look at the histories of other minimalistic cars, their makers kept on pushing them with a lot of good quality advertising. So the answer may be much better PR. You suggest that Porsche cars sell mainly because of this -

Originally Posted by Jeroen

A good example how outstanding business and PR acumen can make something unique out of something not very special is Porsche. As everybody knows every Porsche is a pig to drive. Especially the earlier ones. Still Porsche PR people convinced punters that the engine should be in the back and it should be a flat engine too..
..their PR department is superior and will always have the last say and business wise they run a very tight ship. Making pots of money with essentially mediocre outdated technology that nobody else wants. Now that is clever!

Jeroen