[jalajprakash]

Originally Posted by Chethan B G

Both MQ350 and DQ350 are rated the same I suppose. As you said, this is confusing..

Here is what I was able to find for the 6-speed DSG box that is in use in the Jetta AT, apparently the torque can be well over 250 but no limit is specified. An internet search revealed that the MQ350 is very much restricted to 350Nm though.

Attachment 1403157

Edit : Nevermind, I found this,

[Vid6639]

Check with Code 6 as well. I believe they can remap VAG cars without opening up the ECU via OBD.

Here's a couple of related threads:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modif...de6-remap.html

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/banga...bangalore.html (Multi-brand Car Servicing & Repairs - Bay 6 Motorworks (Bangalore))

[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by Tanveer_2558

4. Racechip pro 2, Which bumps up the power to 182Bhp and 398 Nm of torque. Reviews around the internet is pretty good, Plus its an added advantage to remove the chip before every servicing so there won't be even the slightest warranty concerns.

Avoid. Racechip uses the same box for every car, with different connectors. Unlike some other boxes which have a map specifically for the car its going on to. Different cars have different parameters, difference tolerances, different characteristics. A single box, even with those adjusters cannot be optimised. Also I know people who have had injector issues with Racechip, and are now using Racedynamics and totally happy with no issues.

Originally Posted by Chethan B G

Right now, the plan is as below:

1. Suspension upgrade next Tuesday / Wednesday at "Head over Wheels".
2. 3rd Oil change service immediately after that - before next week-end.
3. Remap immediately after that - Pete's want my car for 4 days for this work!!!???
4. Will drive the car for 500 Kms with NCT5, which has sufficient thread left. After this, I will decide on the tyre width - 205 / 215 / 225. Tyres will be P3st, if it is one of the first 2 options and PS3 if the option is 225 width. But, I am not changing the alloys - Period!

Yes Akshay. I think I will go with the standard map, as the torque is exceeding 10% of the MQ350 rating, if I go with the performance map. Can you check / confirm on the OEM rating of MQ350? Please.

Sorry Chethan, but I think you are going about this completely wrong.

What you feel is a perceived loss of damping due to your Goodyears becoming hard and making a lot of noise. I am ready to guarantee, that once the tyres are upgraded, you will not feel anything is wrong with the suspension. The tyres make a bigger difference than you think

This is what you need to do -

1) FIRST change the tyres, 225s are my suggestion. But the ultimate choice is yours. Use the tyres, see the big difference and enjoy.

2) Oil change and service, etc. Also get the suspension retorqued. Any extra noises will disappear with this too.

3) Remap. My suggestion is the 177bhp one. Also it will be a large difference and will feel like a total upgrade. Now again use the car for a while, and then decide on the suspension.

4) After the above 3 I don't think you will feel the need to upgrade to Bilsteins. Frankly I'm all for better suspensions, but I just don't think you need it. At least not at this point.

Trust me, the tyres will take care of whatever you feel is wrong with the suspension

[iliketurtles]

Originally Posted by Tanveer_2558

Hello karan i just checked my conversation with tune o tronics and it was as seen below with its cost mentioned. What i am confused about is, Why would the AT get more torque or bhp than the MT version?

Yeah, I remember this well. By any chance, do you remember if Tune-o-Tronics also offers the 190 BHP tune?

Also, for my money, the remap makes most sense compared to the chip. The latter just isn't as sophisticated as a remap in that it can't be tailored to suit your car. It's kind of like the difference between a readymade and a tailored suit. Both do the trick, but only one flatters you perfectly.

[Tanveer_2558]

Originally Posted by akshay1234

Avoid. Racechip uses the same box for every car, with different connectors. Unlike some other boxes which have a map specifically for the car its going on to. Different cars have different parameters, difference tolerances, different characteristics. A single box, even with those adjusters cannot be optimised. Also I know people who have had injector issues with Racechip, and are now using Racedynamics and totally happy with no issues.

Thanks for the important info, Yes i have heard good things about Racedynamics too, But i feel ill landup for a custom remap only.

Originally Posted by iliketurtles

Yeah, I remember this well. By any chance, do you remember if Tune-o-Tronics also offers the 190 BHP tune?

Also, for my money, the remap makes most sense compared to the chip. The latter just isn't as sophisticated as a remap in that it can't be tailored to suit your car. It's kind of like the difference between a readymade and a tailored suit. Both do the trick, but only one flatters you perfectly.

Karan, No tune o tronics did not mention about any other remap. Even kirrus has just one remap of 175Bhp AFAIK, Ill contact petes here soon, Probably try and go their shop itself personally and get some proper information on the remap. 190 Bhp sounds really nice, Plus as you said in a proper remap you can always decide when do you want the power, So from the low to mid range, A 190Bhp tune should be
But first going to install the ESP off switch over the weekend, Hope all goes well.

[Chethan B G]

Originally Posted by GrammarNazi

I'd suggest you get the tyres swapped before the remap.

Thanks. Discussed this with Pete's. They say old-tyre is fine as they do not run the car and test while coding. Any way, I will give it a thought.

Originally Posted by Tanveer_2558

Hello Chetan BG ! I have too planned to get my jet remapped. But for now these are the confusion's for me,

1. You saw what tune o tronics is offering.
3. Petes is offering 190BHP remap and it seems to be very tempting, But its weird that they are asking 4 days for it? Or are they going to test the car properly and see nothing goes wrong?

Hi Tanveer!

Please do not consider pricing while deciding about the remap vendor. You should be able to trust the vendor completely. That is more important than the difference of 10K in my opinion.

I discussed with Pete's. It looks like they have to take the ECU to Cochin to flash it. And also, the licensed remap is every time got from the UK and this takes a couple of days!!?

Originally Posted by jalajprakash

Here is what I was able to find for the 6-speed DSG box that is in use in the Jetta AT, apparently the torque can be well over 250 but no limit is specified. An internet search revealed that the MQ350 is very much restricted to 350Nm though.

Yes. DQ350 is based on MQ350. DQ350 Torque is digitally limited to 350 NM through Transmission control module (TCM). MQ350 being manual, does not have any limits but officially rated for 350 NM.

380 / 400 NM should be safe I suppose.

Link: http://www.audiworld.com/forums/tt-m...A-%3D-1903125/

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Check with Code 6 as well. I believe they can remap VAG cars without opening up the ECU via OBD.

Hi Viddy, as this is my first tuning experience, I thought of going with the trusted name. Pete's have nothing against them on the net and all positive, although they may be more expensive than the others. What do you suggest?

Also, I inquired with them about flashing Via the OBD. Their reply was "ECU can be flashed through the OBD port for Polo, Vento, Fabia, Rapid, Superb / Passat with PD engines and Jetta / Laura with PD engines; But not the new ones." Apparently, the newer Jetta / Passat / Octavia / Superb have a recent generation ECU, which can-not be flashed through OBD.

Originally Posted by akshay1234

1) FIRST change the tyres, 225s are my suggestion. But the ultimate choice is yours. Use the tyres, see the big difference and enjoy.

What would be the dis-advantages of having 225/50/R16 on a 6.5J RIM?

Originally Posted by iliketurtles

Also, for my money, the remap makes most sense compared to the chip.

100%

Remap takes control of fuel input / valve timing / boost pressure / EGR valve opening and so many other things.

Chip can at the most "fool around" with fuel input and the boost pressure.

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by Chethan B G

Hi Viddy, as this is my first tuning experience, I thought of going with the trusted name. Pete's have nothing against them on the net and all positive, although they may be more expensive than the others. What do you suggest?

Also, I inquired with them about flashing Via the OBD. Their reply was "ECU can be flashed through the OBD port for Polo, Vento, Fabia, Rapid, Superb / Passat with PD engines and Jetta / Laura with PD engines; But not the new ones." Apparently, the newer Jetta / Passat / Octavia / Superb have a recent generation ECU, which can-not be flashed through OBD.

Hi Chethan, you might be right about the newer ECU's being encrypted hence cannot be flashed via OBD. However I think Code6 is saying even the Superb and Yeti can be flashed without opening it up. Best you check with them.

Pete's is anyways renowned so it makes sense to go with them. I think folks like ToT and Code6 are offering a bit more customization vs Pete's who uses an international remap from Custom Code. Not sure if there is any customization possible.

Fellow mod Jaggu recently got his Thar remapped from Code6 which is when I came to know about them.

Lots of options to choose from these days when it comes to remap

[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by Chethan B G

Please do not consider pricing while deciding about the remap vendor. You should be able to trust the vendor completely. That is more important than the difference of 10K in my opinion.

I discussed with Pete's. It looks like they have to take the ECU to Cochin to flash it. And also, the licensed remap is every time got from the UK and this takes a couple of days!!?

What would be the dis-advantages of having 225/50/R16 on a 6.5J RIM?

Hi Chethan,

No disadvantages of having 225/50 on a 6.5j rim. I've been using this size for almost 40k kms on my vRS without a single issue. The only issue is how much the car has improved better ride, much better handling, more confidence inspiring braking, less noise. Honestly the difference in mileage was minimal, maybe .1-.2kmpl. Its a no brainer in my opinion.

So your ECU has to be sent out to get the remap done? That means the car will be off the road for a few days.

In that case another option like Code 6 or Tune o Tronics may be better. I too am running a Tune o Tronics map on my vRS since 25k kms, and again not a single issue. They need to open up the ECU the first time when they flash, and after that subsequent flashes can be done from the OBD port. Also the fact that its a one time charge, and you can get it changed later on to your preferences is what I like about ToT.

Not to mention the lower prices.

[graaja]

Originally Posted by iliketurtles

Also, for my money, the remap makes most sense compared to the chip. The latter just isn't as sophisticated as a remap in that it can't be tailored to suit your car. It's kind of like the difference between a readymade and a tailored suit. Both do the trick, but only one flatters you perfectly.

Originally Posted by Tanveer_2558

Karan, No tune o tronics did not mention about any other remap. Even kirrus has just one remap of 175Bhp AFAIK, Ill contact petes here soon, Probably try and go their shop itself personally and get some proper information on the remap...

Note: This does not apply to Chethan's manual gearbox, only to DSGs.

I did lot of reading on the topic of remapping in many VW forums. The more I read, more confusing it becomes!!!

One topic that always comes up in these discussions is the torque limit imposed by the DSG. The most commonly agreed information is that the DQ250 DSG limits the torque to 350Nm. The DSG does not directly limit the torque, but requests the ECU to limit the torque to 350Nm. There are two solutions to this problem. The first is when a remap is done, the coding is done such that the ECU ignores the torque limit request from the DSG. The second option is to do a DSG tune which lifts the torque limit. There are many companies like APR, Custom-Code (I guess Pete's uses their products) offer DSG tune. The DSG tuning apart from lifting the torque limit also improves the performance of the DSG shifts and the overall drive experience. They can customize the shift point for each gear to let the engine stay in the max torque band. If they solve the 1 second delay in D mode in dropping gears, I would love to get one. Check out the below link.

https://www.goapr.com/products/tcu_u...0_exx_fxx.html

When it comes to combination of ECU remap and DSG tuning, there are mixed opinions in the forums.

Many claim that for Stage-1 tunes that put upto 400Nm torque, there is no need for a DSG tune. Only when you go for Stage-2 tunes that put torque above 400Nm, a DSG tune is required. Even APR website mentions that for Stage-1 tunes, DSG tune is not required. Most probably, they code it such that ECU ignores the torque limit.

Some others claim that doing a remap that puts more than 350Nm is useless without a DSG tune.

I could not find any dyno graph of a Stage-1 tuned 2.0TDI without a DSG tune.

Tanveer, when you talk to Pete's and Tune-o-Tronics, can you bring this up and ask them how they address the torque limit imposed by the DSG?

EDIT: Custom-Code also offers a hardware called Flashwire (looks similar to a VCDS cable), through which you can re-flash the original ECU map. Interesting!

[Chethan B G]

Originally Posted by graaja

Note: This does not apply to Chethan's manual gearbox, only to DSGs.

I did lot of reading on the topic of remapping in many VW forums. The more I read, more confusing it becomes!!!

Thanks for the info!

I would like to add a couple of things to make it more complicated:

MQ350 + Mechatronics = DQ250 which is digitally limited to 350NM of torque. The same DQ250 serves Passat also (?), which is rated higher at stock - In that case, may be the limit is set only for commercial differentiation and not for any technical reason?

I could not find any official document on MQ350's torque rating. Whatever is available (Net and VW service manual) is only regarding DQ250's torque limiter and there-on inferring the same to MQ350. Obviously they are not the same, since manual transmission is purely mechanical in nature (no limiter) and Mechatronics is more complicated. May-be, clutch wear will be higher after mod - It again depends on our usage pattern. If we drive through the gear and not frequently launch the vehicle, it should be safe.

Coming to the maps them-self: Pete's uses Diesel-Inside and not Custom-code for Diesel cars. I could not find much about Diesel-Inside on Net, but Custom-code seems to be tested and reliable.

Pete's just sells these maps with licence, with local modifications to suit our requirements such as fuel / altitude / atmosphere / dust / air pollution etc. Further customization will not be possible. I think, for a general stage-1 remap and also for a guy like myself, further fine-tune / customization may not be required, as I may not even know what to ask! seriously!!

Code6 uses a German map from electro-tune, but the vender themselves do not commercially / independently operate. There-fore, there is no data online wrt map reviews. People are knowledgeable and accommodative, local customization is extensive done. Major advantage with them is that the ECU is flashed through OBD. This eliminates the heart-burn associated, when somebody literally opens-up the ECU which is sealed for good!

I am yet to decide between the two. Any suggestion is welcome - Particularly wrt Diesel-inside in terms of known reliability.

Tyre width and Suspension upgrade: I have 2 ways of looking at it - either learn the trick through the hard way (which itself is not wrong) OR listen to people who have experience on similar driving conditions (read Karnataka). I think, I will go with Santosh Bhat.

Available PS3 tyres are very old - 2001/2002 manufactured. Any suggestions?

P3st is available in 215/55/R16 and not in 225/50/R16.

[Santoshbhat]

Originally Posted by Chethan B G

I could not find any official document on MQ350's torque rating. Whatever is available (Net and VW service manual) is only regarding DQ250's torque limiter and there-on inferring the same to MQ350.

I don't think you should worry too much about the manual transmission's torque capacity for a standard remap. There are stage 3 Laura TSIs running at almost 150% of stock torque rating without any issues. Even for DSG they say you can safely tune the engine for higher torque than the max rated GB capacity as you will not stay in the peak zone for very long.

Originally Posted by Chethan B G

Available PS3 tyres are very old - 2001/2002 manufactured. Any suggestions?

P3st is available in 215/55/R16 and not in 225/50/R16.

Yes that is a problem with 225 16 inchers. Vey little choice! Even I had to settle for 2011 manufactured PS3s for my second set (bought in end 2015) . My first set which I bought in 2012 were also 2011 made.

I went for them as I thought I will use them up in 2 years anyway and more so because they are damn good and nothing else comes anywhere close. So far I have completed about 7k kms on this second set and I haven't faced any issues as yet. Grip and performance wise they are up there. The four year old manufacture date has not affected the rubber. My thinking was that if the tyre has been stored properly, it should be OK.

P3ST in 215/55/16 also is a good choice. You get a wider footprint + a little extra sidewall. If you are going for Bilstien dampers, it will take care of body roll etc... A little extra sidewall may actually be a blessing.

[RohanDheman]

Running 225/55/16 with Bilstein B6 and H&R springs. No issues at all. Covered almost 3500kms in the 3-4 weeks post installation. P3ST is probably the best choice in 225/55/16s.

Although i may have to remove the springs in sometime due to Dad having to take the Laura to interiors of UP, i am sticking with the B6 and the tyres.

Rohan

[Chethan B G]

Originally Posted by Santoshbhat

Yes that is a problem with 225 16 inchers. Vey little choice! Even I had to settle for 2011 manufactured PS3s for my second set (bought in end 2015) . My first set which I bought in 2012 were also 2011 made.

I went for them as I thought I will use them up in 2 years anyway and more so because they are damn good and nothing else comes anywhere close. So far I have completed about 7k kms on this second set and I haven't faced any issues as yet. Grip and performance wise they are up there. The four year old manufacture date has not affected the rubber. My thinking was that if the tyre has been stored properly, it should be OK.

P3ST in 215/55/16 also is a good choice. You get a wider footprint + a little extra sidewall. If you are going for Bilstien dampers, it will take care of body roll etc... A little extra sidewall may actually be a blessing.

I am changing to Bilstein tomorrow as planned. Shibin was not in town and is back tomorrow. Once done, I will run the car for a couple of days just to see how the shocks work with my old tyres. After that, I will change the tyres - by Thursday.

I was quoted 10k per tyre for PS3's, since they are old stock. P3st 215/55 R16's are above 12k. Planning to have a look and decide.

I was also thinking the same wrt P3st. Do you feel extra sidewall will help, when in combination with Bilstein B6?

How was your overall experience with Pete's remap?

Originally Posted by RohanDheman

Running 225/55/16 with Bilstein B6 and H&R springs. No issues at all. Covered almost 3500kms in the 3-4 weeks post installation. P3ST is probably the best choice in 225/55/16s.

Although i may have to remove the springs in sometime due to Dad having to take the Laura to interiors of UP, i am sticking with the B6 and the tyres.

Rohan

Thanks. But 225/55/16 is over 3% error. This might effect ABS calibration.

[Santoshbhat]

Originally Posted by Chethan B G

I was also thinking the same wrt P3st. Do you feel extra sidewall will help, when in combination with Bilstein B6?

It all depends on how you want your car to ride and handle. If you want your car to be all out sporty and you are one who drives the car on its limits and corner extremely hard then you will not be happy with 50 profile 16 inchers also and will look at 45 profile 17 inchers. In fact a lot of guys with modded Lauras are running 225/45/17 PS3s. When I ordered my Borbets too Shibin recommended 17 inchers as I was already running 16 inchers. This being my primary work car for outstation trips, I did not want to compromise on the ride and risk tyre damage as I have to travel to many smaller towns and industrial areas where roads are always bad. I do drive hard on highways and love cornering fast on mountain roads and at these times I've never felt let down by the set up I am running.

I feel the incremental handling prowess afforded by 45 profile 17 inchers Vs 50 profile 16 inchers is very very marginal on public roads. On the track may be it will help shave off a few seconds. Another reason why people like to go for lower profile tyres is looks. Lower profile tyres look great! Sigh... if only they were just as practical.

So coming to your question whether a little more sidewall will 'help', my answer is yes it will help to give you a little more cushioning form bad road surfaces and handling wise it won't hurt much, unless as I said, you like to drive on the limit. Let me put it this way, the handling with Bilstien B6 and 215/55 P3ST will still be much better than stock dampers and 205/55 Goodyear NCT. The slow speed ride too will be great with 55 profile P3ST which are basically comfort oriented tyres.

After installing Bilsteins your ride will be firm and on those old Goodyears sharp cuts and potholes will really make their presence felt at slow speeds. Good tyres are all the more important when you install performance dampers.

Originally Posted by Chethan B G

How was your overall experience with Pete's remap?

Good experience overall, no complaints. Shibin is very responsive and knows his stuff. After the remap, the improvement in performance was very much perceptible. I've not had any reason to go back for issue resolution or retuning the map. I've been running the stage 1 map for nearly 40,000 kms and I've had no engine or drivetrain related issues whatsoever. Even Skoda A.S.S. could not detect that my car is remapped.

[Chethan B G]

Originally Posted by Santoshbhat

So coming to your question whether a little more sidewall will 'help', my answer is yes it will help to give you a little more cushioning form bad road surfaces and handling wise it won't hurt much, unless as I said, you like to drive on the limit. Let me put it this way, the handling with Bilstien B6 and 215/55 P3ST will still be much better than stock dampers and 205/55 Goodyear NCT. The slow speed ride too will be great with 55 profile P3ST which are basically comfort oriented tyres.

Thanks Santosh! I know that I have been asking you the same question again & again, even though you have explained it before and also clearly put-it across in your thread. May-be I needed you to assert the same once more. Thanks again for your patience.

I will go with Bilstein B6 + 215/55/R16 P3ST. Both will be done tomorrow as Shibin has scheduled the same.

I will get the car serviced this week-end and get the tuning done after that.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Pete's is anyways renowned so it makes sense to go with them. I think folks like ToT and Code6 are offering a bit more customization vs Pete's who uses an international remap from Custom Code. Not sure if there is any customization possible.

Hi Viddy, I had a discussion with Anup of Code6 and he was very informative to say the least.

Pete's uses Custom Code maps for Petrol engines and Diesel-inside maps for Diesel engine (as per Shibin). Diesel-inside has evolved to Malone tuning (Link:http://www.malonetuning.com/). But this is not mentioned on Pete's website. Melone tuning have a decent reviews on the net: http://www.eurodrivers.ca/forums/sho...e-tune-for-TDI.

From what I have understood: These European master-tuners use road / load simulators, continuously monitor temperature / pressure of the engine parts and tune accordingly. This increases engine reliability. Most of these tuners have long history - long enough to verify. Pete's use this kind of map as a base and tweak to suit Indian conditions. Extensive customization is not possible - But I doubt if it is necessary at all, for a stage-1 map. I agree that there can be 5% difference wrt performance from car to car, with the same map. But, this is the same as how things were with the stock car, when it was delivered.

When it comes to Code6, problem is lack of verifiable results. They are knowledgeable and excellent in there work. But to begin with, the base map they use (Electro-tune) is non-verifiable. There-fore we are dependent on their knowledge both as tuners and automotive engineers. I am not sure if the map developed is based on active simulators and feedback.

This gets to the actual implementation: Code6 is totally hassle-free with this. half-a-day work through the OBD. We also get to see the action which is interesting for us enthusiasts.

Pete's is the other way in this case. 4-5 days the car needs to be left at their workshop. ECU is then taken to Cochin for flashing. A test drive is all we can do after the ECU is brought back to Bangalore and re-fitted. Leaving the car in a garage (unknown / un-attended) for those-many days, itself is a worry.

Any suggestion will be helpful.

Originally Posted by Santoshbhat

Good experience overall, no complaints. Shibin is very responsive and knows his stuff. After the remap, the improvement in performance was very much perceptible. I've not had any reason to go back for issue resolution or retuning the map. I've been running the stage 1 map for nearly 40,000 kms and I've had no engine or drivetrain related issues whatsoever. Even Skoda A.S.S. could not detect that my car is remapped.

My experience with Shibin also has been very good. Your car has Custom code maps which are proven and very reliable. I have to decide about mine - Fingers crossed!!