[audioholic]

Originally Posted by abirnale

Coolant level dropped drastically

Ever since I got a companion to park beside my silver steed in RE Thunderbird, it is limited to weekend runs only! Last weekend had some free time so glanced under the bonnet to do usual general checks after almost a gap of a month! While everything seemed to be fine, the coolant level in the reservoir tank had gone to closest to low mark

I had the same issue a month after service and coolant change. I opened the bonnet to find coolant near low. It took in nearly one litre of premix coolant to get the level to max. Strange thing was it is one year and almost nearing the next service, and the coolant level has not dropped by a small fraction till date. The issue didnt repeat. I concluded that there is a mistake in the coolant change procedure. Perhaps when they fill in new coolant, they are not ensuring that the whole system gets filled and they prematurely shut the bonnet.

To reassure me of the same, my WagonR showed the same issue, and it still has coolant near the midway mark. And the same case too, coolant was replaced last service. This happened at Garuda autocraft and both cars were serviced there. So now since both cars are nearing service, I shall let them top up coolant on the Waggy. After Parag mentioned about an overheating issue with SX4, I am extra cautious now But from the last six years the car is with us, it has been the most reliable we have had in spite of taking it to places any other car would have never been to.

[abirnale]

Originally Posted by audioholic

I had the same issue a month after service and coolant change....

This is very insightful. Can't deny - it could be same with my SX4 as well. I remember Alok facing the overheating issue with his SX4 that Parag helped him follow right recourse and that is the reason made me to worry about my SX4!

Let me watch it for a week with some more than average usage and report back if anything I can find out.

[amitpunjani]

Originally Posted by abirnale

Coolant level dropped drastically

Ever since I got a companion to park beside my silver steed in RE Thunderbird, it is limited to weekend runs only! Last weekend had some free time so glanced under the bonnet to do usual general checks after almost a gap of a month! While everything seemed to be fine, the coolant level in the reservoir tank had gone to closest to low mark

I checked for all signs of leakages and residue I could from the car. I did not find even a trace of drop! Not sure what had happened. So then I simply filled in the reservoir tank with RO purified water and used it for the day - almost 100 Kms. I monitored the engine temperature using the OBD dongle too and there was no problem with any of that whatsoever.

So yesterday I took the car to Mandovi MASS. I reported all my observations about my drives, temp monitoring etc. They did not find anything wrong either! Suspecting to the warranty repair from Oct 2013, they even kept the car running on AC for two hours to serif the coolant comes in contact with something and evaporates to go below the current level. The level did not drop.

The SA told me to take the car and go on long drive for around 100 Kms with full ACC and come back next week again to check.

I am confused as to what could be the problem? I am sure there is some leakage somewhere that is not easy to spot otherwise how could you justify the drops in coolant level? A few TBHp friends suggested using detergent to detect the leak and flush afterwards etc. But I am thinking to give one more chance to MASS to see if they can find and fix. Else I will need to go to some other more competent garage to get this resolved. And its scary that my car warranty expires in exactly another 7 weeks!

Anyone with any different suggestions/ alternate solutions to resolve this problem here?

Before the first start of the day, in the morning open the radiator cap and check for traces of Oil. If God forbidden you find oil floating on the coolant, then its an issue of Head Gasket.

[abirnale]

Originally Posted by amitpunjani

Before the first start of the day, in the morning open the radiator cap and check for traces of Oil. If God forbidden you find oil floating on the coolant, then its an issue of Head Gasket.

I did check this earlier as well as today. There is no trace of any oil. See the pic -



Mistake not that the shiny thing you see in pic is actually the camera flash and oil

[paragsachania]

Originally Posted by audioholic

To reassure me of the same, my WagonR showed the same issue, and it still has coolant near the midway mark. And the same case too, coolant was replaced last service. This happened at Garuda autocraft and both cars were serviced there. So now since both cars are nearing service, I shall let them top up coolant on the Waggy. After Parag mentioned about an overheating issue with SX4, I am extra cautious now But from the last six years the car is with us, it has been the most reliable we have had in spite of taking it to places any other car would have never been to.

Originally Posted by abirnale

I remember Alok facing the overheating issue with his SX4 that Parag helped him follow right recourse and that is the reason made me to worry about my SX4!

Let me watch it for a week with some more than average usage and report back if anything I can find out.

Well, the one that Alok faced indeed surprised all of us who were following his road trip. Sorry, I missed this post where you guys have talked about the episode. I had few days before sent a PM to audioholic on the same.

The issue as mentioned by many people online is to do with the car overheating at speeds excess to 100KMPH. If one is constantly cruising at 120 or above, this happens.

Alok was driving between Tumkur and Sira on a hot Diwali afternoon and this happened.

First hint was the AC Stopped cooling completely. Then he sees the temperature needle pointing to "H" and that's when he pulled over. Upon inspecting under the bonnet, he could see coolant spilled all over and drops dripping out from the overflow pipe as well.

Followed all steps to bring the temperature down but it would shoot up again. Verified the Radiator and Cooling fans doing its job precisely too!

Maruti's On-Road Assistance arrived from Tumkur, filled up the coolant, diagnosed of any leaks and confirmed it could have been a one time affair and he continued only to find the issue cropping up again everytime he exceeded speeds in excess of 110kmph.

If he drove below 90KMPH, everything was perfectly normal and hence he returned back to Bangalore after his drive in the next 3 days and we were at the ASC to find out the cause.

There was no Radiator from a different SX4 to test. From the past experience of dealing with another case (SX4 again), the ASC replaced the waterpump first and I and Alok went for a TD along with the SA on NICE road one afternoon.

Everything remained normal but the real test case was doing speeds above 110kmph and no sooner that I crossed some good speeds the AC cut off happened and the needle would shoot up.

The issue now was partially resolved as the Temperature needle would come down to half as soon as the speeds were reduced but would immediately shoot up as we crossed 120kmph all the way to the H mark.

The OBD Device was connected and the SA was next to me who was noting down Temperature at various speeds. At once it touched 117 Degrees which was way beyond normal for a car and certainly a case of overheating and the fact that the issue is not resolved. But the silver lining was that the temperature non hesitantly dropped as soon as speeds were reduced which was not a case earlier when it took a long time to cool down.

This SX4 Petrol had now become part of the infamous and less talked about "Known Issue" now that the ASC had to escalate to higher ups who agreed for a Engine head replacement as the head would have easily got damaged due to all the overheating in the past and coolant not circulating effectively. (Thermostat was replaced and tested, It was removed and tested as well).

So finally, the engine head was replaced, all under warranty, thankfully, as it was just in time before it lapsed.

The ASC assured to have tested after head replacement (long hours in Idle and few TDs on highway) that the car was taken by Alok who came to my home on a Friday night for a TD.

I had insisted that we do a very thorough TD with proper test case of highway driving and we headed out on Hassan road that evening. With my ELM Bluetooth OBD connected to the port and my Phone running the Torque app, the temperature remained between 93-97 degrees all the times for those first 50 kms till I slowed down for a speed breaker (you are driving in KA you see ), and started to almost redline through all the gears and the AC cuts off now !! Temp needle climbs but only to 75% mark, OBD displays 103 Degrees.

So now, the problem was to do with the load. Normal cruising never overheated. Everytime I braked and started again to speed it started to overheat.

Water Pump - Replaced
Thermostat - Replaced
Engine Head - Replaced
Radiator - Not Replaced

The last resort now - Radiator replacement!

This one fully solved the problem. Alok even drove to Chennai and returned back carrying my OBD Adapter and monitoring the temperature and everything was back to normal.

While were were working on this issue, the Territory Service Manager suggested the ASC to use a IR Temperature Gun to measure difference of temperature at the Radiator Inlet and Outlet before replacing the Radiator.

Ultimately, the issue is 100% resolved now but since the approach was trial and error including the fact that the Head replacement happened due to overheating causing the head gasket to go bust (and damage the head as well), We suspect just replacing the Radiator, Water Pump and Thermostat may have also solved the problem.

(I still don't know if a coolant pressure test was done to ascertain any leaks or blockages as well)

Few Stories that you can refer to for this problem that many have faced (Internationally as well) -

Story 1

Story 2

Story 3 - One of our BHPian himself

One more

[abirnale]

Thanks Parag for such a detailed information

I will take the car for 100 Kms spin tonight on NICE road today and see if I can reproduce any of these symptoms.

Quick question here - Since the radiator was at fault in Alok's case, I wonder if you would have checked the radiator cap in the morning and coolant levels were still full inside the radiator or that was dry too?

In my case, twice when the reservoir is empty, radiator was still holding coolant fully upto the cap - just like the pic above.

[paragsachania]

Originally Posted by abirnale

Thanks Parag for such a detailed information

I will take the car for 100 Kms spin tonight on NICE road today and see if I can reproduce any of these symptoms.

I may hit the NICE road to return back home today (and as well for a Short solo drive towards NH4/48 may be) around 9pm. We can sync up if you want .

Quick question here - Since the radiator was at fault in Alok's case, I wonder if you would have checked the radiator cap in the morning and coolant levels were still full inside the radiator or that was dry too?

Bold Part, not a conclusion. It only could have been faulty. In fact, now that you mention about the cap, I could recollect they even tested with a new Radiator Cap as well!

In my case, twice when the reservoir is empty, radiator was still holding coolant fully upto the cap - just like the pic above.

In Alok's case during the TD itself, we did find the levels going down (Though not drastically), after a burst of 70-100 kms while in the TD.

[abirnale]

Originally Posted by paragsachania

I may hit the NICE road to return back home today (and as well for a Short solo drive towards NH4/48 may be) around 9pm. We can sync up if you want

Yeah, I seem to be in luck! Getting in touch with you and taking the conversation offline.

And we will post the summary later tomorrow. Stay tuned.

[abirnale]

Looks like I did not update this thread for a very very very long time even though i had update on coolant level issue!

I met Parag on the other day as well as for meetup at Paratha Joint on Hyderabad highway. We did investigate things but other than trying to look for more traces and hints, we couldn't arrive at any conclusion. So i just let the car to itself and kept observing. Thanks to Parag for handful of tips and tricks apart from just coolant thing!

Coolant Level Updates -
Since 2 months, there has not been any drastic coolant level changes. It goes down but a very little. Since the last time I reported, I have been on the long drive for 1500+ Kms trip included. The odometer is beyond 52K Kms now. I did the combinations of with and without AC and with varying speeds on NH4. No issues whatsoever. But the observations of some trace below the white plastic coolant tank is seen. I am suspecting the super minute leakage somewhere on the tank itself. Just as a caution, I plan to remove the tank myself and clean it out, check for issues and then fit back.

Glad, things are fine but that unknown thing why it happened earlier (coolant going down) gives me some scare before I start on long drive. Good thing is, I give myself more time and prepared for the trips than before. Blessings in disguise

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by abirnale

Coolant Level Updates -
Since 2 months, there has not been any drastic coolant level changes. It goes down but a very little. Since the last time I reported, I have been on the long drive for 1500+ Kms trip included. The odometer is beyond 52K Kms now. I did the combinations of with and without AC and with varying speeds on NH4. No issues whatsoever. But the observations of some trace below the white plastic coolant tank is seen. I am suspecting the super minute leakage somewhere on the tank itself. Just as a caution, I plan to remove the tank myself and clean it out, check for issues and then fit back.

Not sure if I said this before, but the mysterious coolant drop issue was found in both my cars, SX4 and WagonR after a coolant replacement during service. First I found it in my SX4 in Jan 2013 after a service. The coolant had gone to midway in feb or march 2013 IIRC and I topped it up. Now in Feb 2015 I got coolant changed again but from a FNG. From march 2013 to Feb 2015, the coolant did not drop even a little bit when I got it replaced during routine maintenance.

Now in my WagonR which I had got the coolant replaced last January, I had never opened the hood until this January, when I found the coolant was nearing the bottom mark. Unlike my SX4 which gets complete inspection every month by myself, the WR is like a beater car which doesnt get so much attention. Hence I found it very late and again topped it up and I see no drop from the last three months. If at all it had to drop to minimum in a year, then mostly it should have dropped at least 10% over the last three months if there was any leak.

Now the doubt I have is if the service center is following the right procedure when filling up the coolant. Are there any air gaps left which after a few kms of driving or more shows up as a drop in coolant level? I am pretty sure that the SX4 doesnt have any leaks since it was a one off event and the WR is also showing the same signs. Are there some regions like the heater core, throttle body etc where the coolant is drained out and not filled until the water pump runs for a fair amount of time?

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by audioholic

Not sure if I said this before, but the mysterious coolant drop issue was found in both my cars, SX4 and WagonR after a coolant replacement during service.

Now the doubt I have is if the service center is following the right procedure when filling up the coolant. Are there any air gaps left which after a few kms of driving or more shows up as a drop in coolant level? I am pretty sure that the SX4 doesnt have any leaks since it was a one off event and the WR is also showing the same signs. Are there some regions like the heater core, throttle body etc where the coolant is drained out and not filled until the water pump runs for a fair amount of time?

Hi,
I own SX4 Zxi of April 2011 with 42K odo at present.

Your narration brings me to the same doubt; whether the technician at the service centre followed proper procedure or not.

Coolant flush and re-fill procedure has been specified in detail in the SX4 service manual. The procedure involves the following:
* Filling the reservoir to FULL mark
* Then filling-up the radiator to the bottom of the cap
* Engine 'warmup - cool down' cycle
* Again filling the radiator to the bottom of the cap
* Engine 'warmup - cool down' cycle
* Again filling the radiator to the bottom of the cap
* If necessary, filling-up the reservoir to FULL mark again.

The procedure is long and engine 'warmup - cooldown cycle' lasts few minutes. During the procedure, it is necessary to wait till the warmup is confirmed by radiator fan switching ON. This is because the coolant path is different during warmup and after the warmup. The attached sheet explains the same.

So, maybe, on a busy day, if a technician does not patiently complete the above procedure, some air may be left in the coolant circuit. This may result into the symptom you observed.

Looking at your experience, it is worth checking the coolant level in the reservoir after 3-4 trips when the coolant is flushed / re-filled.

[abirnale]

Thanks Audioholic and Rahul for your insights. I too had thought about this. I suspected that MASS technician would not have done that properly and may have made some error that resulted in the level dropping below min level. Hence when I had complained to my MASS (Mandovi Motors), one of the SA there had personally attended the checkups and toped up the coolant. I trust him so much that every time I take my car for servicing, I insist only he should attend my needs. I have been servicing my last two cars too with the same MASS and same SA. And since then I don't see any drops in coolant levels.

I guess at this moment, all we can do is wait and watch! If the symptoms repeat, we will need to do a different diagnostics.

[frewper]

One of the simple reasons why the coolant level is not up to mark when filled is because, when the coolant is refilled, there are air-pockets through the path where the coolant flows. The coolant typically flows through the engine, hoses etc. So the indicator might indicate as full, but its actually not.

Simple solution is, fill the coolant and once it is filled to the brim, start the engine (without putting on the cap). The coolant is pumped through, the air comes out from the inlet and the coolant level will drop immediately. Then pour in more coolant as required. Make sure this is done quickly before the coolant gets hot.

[abirnale]

Originally Posted by frewper

Simple solution is, fill the coolant and once it is filled to the brim, start the engine (without putting on the cap). The coolant is pumped through, the air comes out from the inlet ...

But if you notice the coolant reservoir has an open ended pipe that take care of overflow - when the level drops, shouldn't that let the air also escape? Not sure but help me with more details if I missed any.

Thanks for your help

[frewper]

Originally Posted by abirnale

But if you notice the coolant reservoir has an open ended pipe that take care of overflow - when the level drops, shouldn't that let the air also escape? Not sure but help me with more details if I missed any.

Thanks for your help

See the overflow pipe is normally attached at the top of the reserviour. So when you are filling up if the air pocket is caught inside the engine its gonna stay there, unless it pushed out by coolant.(For this to happen the engine needs to be running).

Once the air bubble reaches the reserviour due to the circulating coolant, the air obviously can come out of the intake(considering it is open, at this point of time). The overflow pipe is really not required as for now. So when the air comes out, the level of the coolant drops, pour more coolant to increase the level.

Overflow Pipe: The overflow pipe will only be needed if the level of the coolant drastically rises(for some reason, and possible only when the engine is running) and the coolant has no place else to go(because the inlet is closed). This is the need for the overflow pipe, not really useful when the coolant is refilled.

Also if you notice the max level indication of the coolant is always a lot lower than the brim of the reserviour. This is also deliberately done to facilitate this rise in volume of the coolant. So the overflow pipe is really failsafe mechanism. Honestly speaking, very rarely comes in use, but important to have.