[GTO]

Originally Posted by PowerSpike

Aren't we too soft on manufacturers of high end cars that are supposed to be of high quality?

Not at all! I'm the first to blast them for their high maintenance requirements, stiff spare parts pricing & inconsistent reliability.

So why do foreign manufacturers seem to be getting a free pass as compared to Indian manufacturers?

As ImmortalZ said, the pre-owned market shows how wary buyers are of these cars. Furthermore, note that sales of Mercedes, BMW etc. have pretty much been stagnant for 6 - 7 years, whereas sales of the 30 - 50 lakh cars from mainstream + practical brands (Fortuner, XUV700 etc.) have shot through the roof.

[sagarpadaki]

Originally Posted by GTO

2. The washer reservoir (wiper) has a leak. I topped it up entirely, and a day later, again got the message that its empty. Hope it's not the damn rats attacking my car. Will get it checked.

For this, if the leak is from a crack or a hole, MSeal works really well as a permanent jugaad, ie, if you have not already replaced the tank.

Just clean the area of the crack, let it dry. Ensure the water level is below the crack/hole. Apply MSeal covering the crack and some surrounding area of the crack. Let it dry for 12 hrs. The crack is sealed.

[ImmortalZ]

Now that I've had some time to think about it, the reason they still sell is because they are honest about what they sell.

Think about it. Maruti and Hyundai make cars for the export market which are significantly safer than what is sold here. And this is not about airbags and such. Hyundai very famously uses high strength steels only in the cars meant for the export market. Honda dumped the leftover 1.8s from the old Civic into the new Civic. Skoda gave us a Laura RS with the worst EA888 in history, specifically for the Indian market. Polo GTI - a supposed CBU - came with the DQ200 instead of the DQ250 that Europe got. We still get rear drum brakes in this country.

Hell, the DQ200 saga is the classic example of what the Indian market is.

The Polo as a whole, by the time production ended, VW learned from the best - Maruti - and cut cost by reducing metal.

If you start digging into history, there's plenty of these instances that with brands which are Indian or have India based production. On the other hand, Mercedes and BMW have always provided global products for us. They adhere to global pollution standards . My 2010 F10 530d had a DPF. Did they need one to confirm to BSIV? Nope. But it was still there. My G30 530d has done 25K KM in 1.5y. Most of that has been city driving and stop and go traffic in and around the maddening traffic in Kochi, Kerala. I've never received a single DPF related warning. Meanwhile, vehicles manufactured in India with grafted on BS6 devices are getting stranded left right and center because of DPF issues. Toyota, Mahinda, Hyundai - no one is spared.

They adhere to real crash safety norms and pass real crash safety tests with flying colours. Not scam test firms like Global NCAP. They do not change their engineering just to reduce costs for this market. The products they sell here befit the badge they put on the vehicle. Sure, there are horrible reliability nightmares for both marques (W220 f.ex.), but they are horrible reliability nightmares globally. Not just in India. We get both the worst and the best of these vehicles.

So, when you are at a point where you can buy a 5er or an S Class, you buy one instead of going "Hmm, I can buy 9 Ciazs for the same money. And it will fit 5 people too.".

Oh, it sure helps that it goes link stink.

[PowerSpike]

Originally Posted by ImmortalZ

There will be no constructive discussion to start around why we buy them.
There is very little financial sense in buying one.

The question isn't about why people buy them. It's because of the way they drive that has been fine tuned by decades of racing pedigree but since the point is raised, I will indulge. And these companies all know how to charge the customer 2 arms and a leg for these vehicles.

Originally Posted by ImmortalZ

So what else is there? I for one bought it because nothing else drives like it, maintenance nightmares or not. Some things do go wrong. My car has had very expensive parts replaced under warranty even before the first oil change. But those parts are part of a very complicated whole beast, whose rear subframe alone has more engineering into it than an average city car designed in the 90s that we are force fed as "ALL NEW WHATEVER! 2022!". Elitist? Maybe. But try driving one.

I have driven quite a few of them so am not being speculative in my question, neither is my intention to question people's choices when they buy these vehicles. They are very good and fun to drive on twisty, bendy roads, equally competent when cruising on highways.

With your point about engineering, you have hit the nail on its head. When these vehicles have so much engineering out into them and are developed using the latest technology that was not available in the 90s and when so much has gone into designing them, how come they have so many parts that continue to fail with such alarming frequency that makes these vehicles extremely unreliable?

If one maintains any vehicle properly, any machine will last quite a long time. These cars are very well taken care of by their owners as the cost a bomb to begin with. This in turn creates a false hype that these vehicles are reliable while giving the manufacturers tons of money to do research, design more vehicles and to win more competitions which further enables them to sell more vehicles. They have been doing this since decades while Indian manufacturers have just started quite recently.

Originally Posted by ImmortalZ

Flipping the script, what does a Safari have to go for it other than a hallowed name plate? It is a 20+L front wheel drive hopped up hatch back. What does a Taigun or Kushaq have to go for it? Built to a price to exploit Indians' lust for "SUVs" and chrome.

In other countries, people take well-engineered vehicles for track days to explore the limits of their vehicles and to extract the maximum out of the tons of hours spent on engineering these magnificent beasts. In India, the use case is mostly limited to driving these imports on highways because of the abysmal ground clearance they carry, which will never allow one to drive them in city peacefully (atleast in New places due to unknown potholes, unmarked speed bumps, etc) without hurting the sensibilities of the owner much before the road damages the vehicle. And on a highway, the safari is also a good vehicle to drive, in fact, it's specifically designed to be driven in that use case.

I am mentioning the Safari, because you mentioned it in your response and also because I drove one on the highway, and it's a magnificent vehicle for that particular use case. When it comes to Indian vehicles, the 'famed' Safari is just a glorified assembled vehicle with a foreign soul as it has a Fiat-sourced engine, a Hyundai transmission and only God knows what other parts could be scavenged from other manufacturers. The only truly Indian SUV is only manufactured by Mahindra.

Originally Posted by ImmortalZ

When there is a USP, they sell. Nexon EV f ex, or any of the umpteen Marutis. Similarly, 70+L C classes sell. And 90+L 5ers also sell.

Now that was elitist indeed, and I understand the sentiment you conveyed.

[ImmortalZ]

Originally Posted by PowerSpike

With your point about engineering, you have hit the nail on its head. When these vehicles have so much engineering out into them and are developed using the latest technology that was not available in the 90s and when so much has gone into designing them, how come they have so many parts that continue to fail with such alarming frequency that makes these vehicles extremely unreliable?

How are these things extremely unreliable? I'm confused. In my view, extremely unreliable is Kushaqs stranding people in their brand new cars. Can you give any examples about which models you mean?

Originally Posted by PowerSpike

If one maintains any vehicle properly, any machine will last quite a long time. These cars are very well taken care of by their owners as the cost a bomb to begin with. This in turn creates a false hype that these vehicles are reliable while giving the manufacturers tons of money to do research, design more vehicles and to win more competitions which further enables them to sell more vehicles. They have been doing this since decades while Indian manufacturers have just started quite recently.

In other countries, people take well-engineered vehicles for track days to explore the limits of their vehicles and to extract the maximum out of the tons of hours spent on engineering these magnificent beasts. In India, the use case is mostly limited to driving these imports on highways because of the abysmal ground clearance they carry, which will never allow one to drive them in city peacefully (atleast in New places due to unknown potholes, unmarked speed bumps, etc) without hurting the sensibilities of the owner much before the road damages the vehicle. And on a highway, the safari is also a good vehicle to drive, in fact, it's specifically designed to be driven in that use case.

*shrug*

I take my cars everywhere. While I have scraped, the car is perfectly fine because there is a literal metal plate underneath the oil pan and the transmission. Maybe in Bangalore I'll need to watch out lest I become a seesaw. In any case, roads across the country are improving by leaps and bounds. Here in KL, we are finally getting 6 lane NHs and outer ring roads. And we don't do massive speed bumps. I've driven my Civic (bad GC) 1.2L KM, my Brio 1L KM, my VTEC now at 2L KM, the F10 (pre-bad road package, German standard GC) 10K KM and now the G30 25K KM - all in supposedly unusable KL roads. I'm sure I'll be fine in the coming future also.

Originally Posted by PowerSpike

I am mentioning the Safari, because you mentioned it in your response and also because I drove one on the highway, and it's a magnificent vehicle for that particular use case. When it comes to Indian vehicles, the 'famed' Safari is just a glorified assembled vehicle with a foreign soul as it has a Fiat-sourced engine, a Hyundai transmission and only God knows what other parts could be scavenged from other manufacturers. The only truly Indian SUV is only manufactured by Mahindra.

The mHawk/mStallion and the 2.2L DICOR in the old Safari were developed in collaboration with AVL. In fact, the diesel engines are identical - it is the common rail components that differ. The 6AT that everyone is so happy Mahindra finally provided? Aisin. Obviously, all of the CRDI/GDI technology is Bosch. All of the ADAS tech and such so raved about in the 700 is all off the shelf stuff from Bosch/Continental/Delphi/Whoever. TUV300 is a SsangYong Tivoli - wholesale.

So, what is indigenously developed in a modern Mahindra? The outer shell design? They buy Pininfarina and that is what they could come up with?

Can you tell that I'm bitter?

[GTO]

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

For this, if the leak is from a crack or a hole, MSeal works really well as a permanent jugaad, ie, if you have not already replaced the tank.

Thanks! Turned out to be a worn out rubber pipe which was replaced.

Originally Posted by ImmortalZ

Now that I've had some time to think about it, the reason they still sell is because they are honest about what they sell.

Originally Posted by PowerSpike

The question isn't about why people buy them.

Guys, request to please not drag my ownership thread anymore off topic . Thanks.

[Altimatum]

Completed 6 months of owning this beauty. I have enjoyed every minute of driving it, mostly between Bangalore and Sakleshpur on the NH. Lots of things that have gone into it in the last few months and I owe many thanks to all of you here who have been so helpful with your reviews and ownership experience threads. I have been procrastinating on a detailed review but I will get to it, I promise!

[TurboKat]

Originally Posted by Altimatum

Completed 6 months of owning this beauty. I have enjoyed every minute of driving it, mostly between Bangalore and Sakleshpur on the NH. Lots of things that have gone into it in the last few months and I owe many thanks to all of you here who have been so helpful with your reviews and ownership experience threads. I have been procrastinating on a detailed review but I will get to it, I promise!

The 5er looks great! By the way, I haven't seen those rims on any 530D MSport. Is your car a pre MSport one with an MSport front bumper? Or the wheels are from the non MSport version?

[Altimatum]

Originally Posted by TurboKat

The 5er looks great! By the way, I haven't seen those rims on any 530D MSport. Is your car a pre MSport one with an MSport front bumper? Or the wheels are from the non MSport version?

It is a pre LCI non M Sport 530D. The wheels were standard but I have painted them in Graphite black colour. The kit I have installed is a M5 kit and not a M Sport kit. Comes with the bumpers - front and rear, fenders, skirts, diffuser, front grill etc.

[TurboKat]

Originally Posted by Altimatum

It is a pre LCI non M Sport 530D. The wheels were standard but I have painted them in Graphite black colour. The kit I have installed is a M5 kit and not a M Sport kit. Comes with the bumpers - front and rear, fenders, skirts, diffuser, front grill etc.

I see. Didn't notice the bumper properly. So mistook it to be an MSport 530D with non MSport wheels.

[Sameergarg]

My 520d was at Krishna automobiles dealership for pre warranty check-up. They changed the horn and rear suspension struts that were leaking. However, post-delivery I had this engine malfunctioning light. Sent my car back and SA informed me they are suspecting NOx and oxygen sensor malfunction. Pretty amazed that only two years of the well-maintained car suffering from this.

They said they have to order from Germany, which may take one month. They are saying I can drive my car meanwhile. I am wondering if it will be safe to do so. How could they not detect it during the pre-warranty check up.

[vyasachetan]

Hi Guys, I am in the market in Bangalore looking for a used F10 530D. Need to know when was the LCI introduced? It came with a nicer looking steering wheel and Alloys.

I have been offered a 2011 525d (3Lt) with 20k kms on the odo. Is it worth considering?

Specially I am planning to remap the car, I think the torq on this gb is limited to 400nm, so it’s as good as a remapped 320d with extra weight of the 5.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by vyasachetan

Need to know when was the LCI introduced? It came with a nicer looking steering wheel and Alloys.

2013 was the M-Sport update with lots of added goodies & higher GC (my car).

2014 was another major update with even better updates (steering, rims, audio system...). Details in Tanveer's ownership report (My Pre-worshipped Monster : BMW 530d M-Sport [F10] EDIT: Sold after 72000+km!).

I have been offered a 2011 525d (3Lt) with 20k kms on the odo. Is it worth considering?

Simple answer = No. Buying a 12-year old complex luxury car is just asking for trouble & headaches. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind owning my own luxury car until 15 years also, as I know its history, reliability track record etc. But buying someone else's 12-year old luxury car is a big no-no. I don't have that risk appetite at all.

There is no such thing as a cheap German luxury car. You either pay stiff costs upfront (at the time of purchase) and / or during ownership (due to repairs & maintenance).

If constrained by budget, buy a newer 3-Series, Octavia etc.

[ImmortalZ]

Originally Posted by vyasachetan

Hi Guys, I am in the market in Bangalore looking for a used F10 530D. Need to know when was the LCI introduced? It came with a nicer looking steering wheel and Alloys.

I have been offered a 2011 525d (3Lt) with 20k kms on the odo. Is it worth considering?

Specially I am planning to remap the car, I think the torq on this gb is limited to 400nm, so it’s as good as a remapped 320d with extra weight of the 5.

No, not a good buy.

2012 brought the N57N, which was a major update to the engine. The 2010-2012 engines have a fairly long list of issues. Also, like you said, the 30d brings with it the 8HP70, which is a significantly beefier transmission.

Best bet is to spring for a 2014+ LCI model which brought better equipment and a fresher face all round.

[GTO]

LOL! Talk about getting into a bad situation, but then adapting to it. Went to pick up my sis from the airport yesterday & she was carrying an additional big box for a fashion designer friend who recently had a show in the USA. Said friend is a bit careless and forgot to send her driver + car to pick up the big box full of her leftover fashion stuff.

When I saw the cargo, I thought we'll have to take an extra Uber home since we were 3 adults & a kid already. Remember, this is a car with awful boot space, thanks to the spare wheel lying on top of the boot floor:


But hey, let's at least try first. First, we kept the fashion box in the boot, along with one bag of my sisters. Moved the space saver spare wheel to the cabin with my sister's other bag. Two adults in the front, with my sis and the kid on the backseat .





With the car fully loaded and all of us squeezed, we went on to breakfast.

Nothing quite like a restaurant table (Yoga House, Bandra) with a view of your parking spot!