[Dr.Naren]

Interesting Discussion!!

Let me make one point clear. I will modify or upgrade the rear brakes (rotors) only if I find it necessary.

As of now I am very happy and the setup has exceeded my expectations.

The car is running with

1. Dixcel Slotted Rotors : Front
2. Dixcel Extra Speed Brake Pads : Front
3. OE Rotors : Rear
4. Dixcel Extra Cruise Brake Pads : Rear

I am sure the braking will improve further with new tyres. If I find the need for better braking in future, I will get slotted rotors for rear too

Originally Posted by R2D2

Unless you want the car to nose dive every time you hit the brakes hard.

No such observations under hard braking. This is not going to change even after I increase the power by 30 HP or so . I remember the car had this nose dive feel when I had leaking front strut.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by R2D2

Brake systems designs are done with a fully loaded car for obvious reasons. I think it's a fallacy to assume there won't be any passenger or luggage in the back seats or boot.

As for the effects of the front end diving when braking hard I speak from experience in 2 of my cars - the Palio 1.6 (discs + drums setup) which loves to pitch and the Altis (4 wheel disc brakes) which has its brake biasing set to the rear which in turn wears out rear brake pads in 20-25K km even with careful driving. The front pads easily last over 2x that mileage. And the pitching is noticeably less.

Anyways, some additional reading for your consideration:

a) Brake Balancing

b) Big brake kits

Theoretically, it is right to say that four brakes work as a team, it will improve braking and so. Totally agree with it. I dont mean to say that there is no need to improve rear brake. However, if we go on a path to improve things sequentially, then it would definitely not be the rear brakes which will be the next TODO. First factor that plays here, in your comparison is that the Palio and Corolla are obviously different in construction. The Corolla has more weight distribution towards the rear axle than the front. Hence, the braking behaviour would be any day more composed than the Palio even if the Corolla had rear drums. Since Naren has the SX4 too, he can probably compare between the two cars since the latter comes with drums in the rear though the front setup is the same. Also, there is no fixed bias for brakes wherever an ABS based setup is used. LSPV was an old technology which even existed on our Tempo trucks since their rear wheels would skid away to glory when unloaded if the LSPV was absent or malfunctioning. Today, it is all taken care by ABS with the help of EBD even in the smallest cars.

Second, regarding the articles, I dont see where they account for type of construction. Also, in the article by EBC, they assume a perfect 50:50 weight distribution when they are showing the effect of weight transfer. That is where the difference arises. For a vehicle like the S-Cross with most of the weight on the front axle, the equations change and under hard braking, the rear wheel will be hardly playing a role in braking since it would have lost whatever static load it had on it to be tractive. That time, the ABS will sense higher wheelslip and cut braking force, all in miliseconds. I am no expert in brakes, but it is a part of work for me to perform hard braking maneuvers in various cars from a hatchback all the way to a 500BHP sports car. During this, we monitor braking torque on each wheel as calculated by ESP and for cars like the Mercedes A class, the rear brakes are hardly utilized under hard braking, though it has pretty discs at the rear. Compared to that, say in a sedan, the rear brakes play a greater role though the front comes with drilled rotors. It is a beautiful thing to watch these actions after logging them, especially seeing how ESP cuts braking to the rear axle once the deceleration rate increases. Unfortunately, I cant share such data outside of work.

But this was a great discussion, and I guess Narens thread is now flooded with brake discussions. It is just that when we think of this single case, my opinion is that the front suspension should be stiffened up, which will slightly resist the weight transfer and then the rear brakes can do their job effectively, and after an upgrade can be sought after.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by audioholic

Theoretically, it is right to say that four brakes work as a team, it will improve braking and so. Totally agree with it. I dont mean to say that there is no need to improve rear brake. However, if we go on a path to improve things sequentially, then it would definitely not be the rear brakes which will be the next TODO.

And that's all I was trying to say from the beginning i.e. **consider** upgrading the rear brakes.

First factor that plays here, in your comparison is that the Palio and Corolla are obviously different in construction. The Corolla has more weight distribution towards the rear axle than the front. Hence, the braking behaviour would be any day more composed than the Palio even if the Corolla had rear drums

The point I was trying to make is that one car's brake balancing is towards the rear and one to the front. Incidentally both cars unladen weight is nearly the same with the Palio about 50-100 less IIRC and GVW in equal proportion. The Palio may be a hatch but believe me she's very well behaved at speed dare I say more confidence inspiring than the Altis but the brakes are nowhere as good which doesn't inspire confidence when slowing down or coming to a halt.

But this was a great discussion, and I guess Narens thread is now flooded with brake discussions

Agreed so I will leave it here

Originally Posted by Sankar

Everybody on the internet is an expert on all things nowadays. Some have their own websites some posts in forums like you me and everybody else here :-)

One of the links is to EBC, and I would certainly consider their advice in matters related to brakes. But then that's just me.

Nothing will happen to your brakes if you mod it to 200+BHP. Only when you need them to stop you may find it a bit lacking.

Stopping from speed is what concerns me the most. I reckon I will see brake fade and higher pad + rotor wear and tear.

BTW how did the project to upgrade your Innova Crysta's brakes go? Many of us were waiting for updates to that thread.

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

Interesting Discussion!! Let me make one point clear....only if I find it necessary.

Of course mate! It's your car after all. No more talk about brakes from me. Cheers!

[Dr.Naren]

OE Turbo of S-Cross 1.6

Upgrade : OE Turbo of Old 2.0 MJD

Have placed an order with Wolf Moto. The Wait Begins!!

[Dr.Naren]

The car has run around 44k Kms now. Dad had driven to Bangalore few days back. He noticed that steering was little weird at ghats , there was some kind of hardness / jerks at turns. It was not very prominent though.

This is the FE dad got while driving from E City Bangalore to Mysore

I had taken the car to Maruti to get the steering checked last sunday.

During last service at 40k Kms , Steering damper was adjusted for some noise ( marked it in pic below ).

For the current issue, they are suspecting the steering column. They have asked me to get the car again on any weekday so that they can analyze it as per the check list from Maruti and order new part under warranty. I am planning to try get rear shocks also replaced under warranty as the ride has become very bouncy now.

[Dr.Naren]

I took the car to service centre today. Workshop manager personally checked the car and acknowledged the sticky steering issue. I also complained about bouncy ride and it was also appreciated during test drive. New shocks and steering column have been ordered, will be replaced under warranty. I am being given a waiting period of 2 weeks.

The car has done 44k Kms now .

[Dr.Naren]

It's been more than 15 days and the parts have still not arrived at service centre. The car is also not used by me or dad now. I just start the engine and idle it for some time every sunday .

I noticed that front left tyre had low pressure, took the tyre out. Yes , it has a puncture.

Dixcel Slotted rotors after 2000 kms

Dixcel Extra Speed Pads ( as good as new )

I need to get steering column and shocks replaced under warranty. Next month should be interesting : New tires, BMC DIA and Turbo upgrade!!

[Dr.Naren]

I got the steering column replaced today. It is too expensive at 50k, thankfully all under warranty . The steering is no more sticky.


I also experienced Maruti's fully transparent online job card and parts approval system. Posting a snapshot.

[Dr.Naren]

The car is back to Continental MC5 and Machine finished alloy wheels of Brezza.

What a difference in ride quality and grip compared to Falken tyres !! MC5 has run around 25k km (16k in S Cross and 9k in SX4 ). They should easily last another 5 to 7k Kms. Next change would be Michelin P4ST or Yokohama Bluearth.

I am very happy with Dixcel brake setup except for one thing..The initial bite could have been better. AM Racing suggested to get M type pads which will have significant improvement in initial bite but would lose slightly in terms of brake fade. The seller has picked up the pads from Japan and shared pics. I should be receiving it in a week .

[Dr.Naren]

I drove around 150 Km today. Braking is too good, thanks to putting back MC5. The repaired tyre had no issues or any air leak since last 1 year in my SX4.

120 to 40 kmph braking

https://youtu.be/P9zPG3GWE8w

Upgrading to M type pads is not a necessity, but I will go for it. Extra Speed pads would be used in SX4 .

[Dr.Naren]

Received Dixcel M type pads


Observe carefully and you will notice minor chipping on 2 pads. This has happened during transport. Packaging could have been better. Also surprised to see no wear indicators.

I have also initiated the process to change rear shocks under warranty. Job card has been opened, waiting for TSM approval. It should be done by tomorrow.

[Dr.Naren]

I couldn't get the rear shocks changed that day. Now a new issue has come up. The brake pedal became spongy all of a sudden. It was not at all confidence inspiring. I took the car to FNG and bleeding was done which did not help. They are suspecting Master cylinder. I need to get it checked at Maruti soon. It looks like even my S-Cross ownership is going to be similar as SX4 .

[Dr.Naren]

The brake pedal got better on it's own. Still it's not perfect. I think it was just air. I wil get the brake fluid changed with Brembo DOT 5.1. I have been driving the car more aggressively after brake upgrade and may be the stock DOT 3 fluid was not able to handle the temperatures.

When I was happy that brakes got better, this happened!

There were 2 errors related to brake switch and cruise control.

CEL went on it's own next day. Decided to change the brake switch, it doesn't cost much..hardly few hundred rupees!

I would be installing KYB Excel G front and rear shocks, Yokohama Bluearth tyres, Dixcel M type pads for front, BMC DIA and bigger OE turbo in coming weeks. Stay tuned : Stage 3 S-Cross 1.6 .

[Dr.Naren]

I was planning to get Brembo DOT 5.1. But, I came across a good deal by LRL Motors for Liqui Moly DOT 5.1. I got 250 ml x 4 bottles for Rs. 1346. I will get one more 250 ml bottle before I go for fluid change.

Brilliant packaging by the seller

250 ml x 4 bottles

The car has run around 45k Kms now. Dealer has assured to change rear shocks next week. Also need to get the brake system thoroughly checked.

[Myth_sx]

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

I was planning to get Brembo DOT 5.1. But, I came across a good deal by LRL Motors for Liqui Moly DOT 5.1. I got 250 ml x 4 bottles for Rs. 1346.

Any particular reason for switching to LM from Brembo ? How much would the equivalent Brembo brake fluid cost ?

The prices are actually quite low. The seller seems to have discount on the purchase of multiple units.