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Old 23rd October 2019, 23:01   #91
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Default Tyre Change: Got Michelin Primacy 3 ZP (RFT)

After about 35,000 km on the old tyres, it was time for a new set of tyres. The runflat tyres (RFTs) that BMW uses has been a topic of a lot of debate on this as well as other international forums. The ride with RFT is usually a bit harsh, they are noisy, and many believe that the advantages do not outweigh these drawbacks. Many recommend changing to tubeless tyres, and say that after experiencing the ride quality on tubeless tyres, they will never go back to RFTs. And yet RFTs offer the one most important quality - the peace of mind when driving in remote areas.

Given these, I was totally confused about whether to stick to the RFTs or switch to tubeless tyres. The Bridgestone Potentza S001 RFTs that came with the car as the OEM tyres were very noisy, and I was sure not going to go for them again. So which tyres to buy? I kept on reading and researching.

Then one day, while waiting in the showroom for my car to get serviced, I noticed the Michelin Primacy 3 ZP tyres on a brand new 5 series on display. This was the first time I was seeing Micheline RFTs (in Michelin speak, ZP = Zero Pressure = RFT) in India. I got intrigued and read more, and found that on most international forums, these tyres are very highly rated. Many BMW owners, on cars ranging from 3 series to 7 series, had switched to these Primacy 3 ZPs and they were very happy about these. So after some research, I decided to go for these tyres.

These were not available at the BMW dealer. Thankfully, these were available at my trusted place for any tyre work in Bangalore - Madhus! So got these tyres from Madhus. As always, got an excellent service at Madhus, and very happy about the whole experience there.


The set of new tyres:
Red-Hot BMW: Story of my pre-owned BMW 320d Sport Line (F30 LCI). EDIT: 3 Years and 40,000km-img_20191011_095939-2.jpg




A closer look at the tyre size and ratings:
Red-Hot BMW: Story of my pre-owned BMW 320d Sport Line (F30 LCI). EDIT: 3 Years and 40,000km-img_20191011_100411-2.jpg


After the tyre change, wheel alignment and balancing was done:
Red-Hot BMW: Story of my pre-owned BMW 320d Sport Line (F30 LCI). EDIT: 3 Years and 40,000km-img_20191011_110044-2.jpg


Precise wheel alignment:
Red-Hot BMW: Story of my pre-owned BMW 320d Sport Line (F30 LCI). EDIT: 3 Years and 40,000km-img_20191011_105927.jpg


After the new tyres, I drove for about a 100km in the city, and then went for a weekend drive of about 700km including some highways and some twisty roads. Below is my initial feedback based on this:

Pros:
  • Very silent: Suddenly, the road noise (that was my main issue with the Bridgestones) has disappeared. These new tyres are very silent. The highway drive was a joy, and I could actually enjoy the music.
  • Superb ride quality: The F30 LCI already had a very good ride quality, even on the Bridgestone RFTS. This is further improved now. Now the ride quality is absolutely superb!
  • Good grip and excellent performance on even wet conditions.
  • Most importantly, these are still RFTs and thus, offer the same peace of mind as the OEM tyres.
  • Same size and spec as the OEM tyres, and thus, no effect on the warranty on the car.
  • Best of the both worlds - the ruggedness of the RFTs and the comfort of the tubeless!
Cons:
  • Haven't found anything yet. If I have to pick something, I would say these are a tad too soft for my liking. I would have loved a one notch harder tyre, but with the same qualities as above. The answer to this is Pilot Sports 4 ZP, which was unfortunately not available.
Summary: In the net, these are amazing tyres. The car has been transformed (in a good way) on these tyres, and the experience is the same as what people claim when they switch to tubeless. These are definitely next level to the OEM tyres. Overall, these offer the best trade-off between RFTs and normal tubeless tyres.

I think that due to the initial experiences on OEM RFTs, most people have started to hate them. RFTs have got a bad name. But these newer set of RFTs from Michelin are so good that I do not see any need to switch to tubeless now.

By the way, these Primacy 3 ZP correspond to the Primacy 3ST tyres in normal tubeless form. I have those on my SX4 and love those too. However, as it is well known, the Pilot Sports 4 range is the sporty range and those tyres are even better than P3ST. And guess what, now Michelin even has Pilot Sport 4 ZP tyres available, and they are the OEM tyres for the new 330i (G20)! So those would be the best RFTs to get today. Unfortunately, those were not available for the size I needed, either at the BMW dealer or at Madhus. And hence I had to settle for the Primacy 3ZP. But no regrets since I am happy with these as well.

So for those sitting on fence about RFTs, I would recommend these new Michelin RFTs, either in Primacy 3 ZP form or better yet, in Pilot Sports 4 ZP form, and you will not regret! You will not go back to tubeless again. :-)
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Old 24th October 2019, 00:13   #92
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Default Re: Tyre Change: Got Michelin Primacy 3 ZP (RFT)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.AD View Post
I would recommend these new Michelin RFTs, either in Primacy 3 ZP form or better yet, in Pilot Sports 4 ZP form, and you will not regret! You will not go back to tubeless again. :-)
I guess you are the 1st BMW owner on T-Bhp having shod Michelin P3ZP tyres.

Good to hear positive feedback.

Plus these P3ZP comes with 6 years factory warranty.

Link:

Next year when I renew BMW Secure; I might not do it. As its cheaper to buy RFT outside and you save on the upfront cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.AD View Post
I would say these are a tad too soft for my liking. I would have loved a one notch harder tyre, but with the same qualities as above. The answer to this is Pilot Sports 4 ZP, which was unfortunately not available.
PS4ZP are harder tyres?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.AD View Post
Pilot Sports 4 ZP
Can you share Michelin India website link on the above product and sizes available. Couldn't locate it.
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Old 24th October 2019, 00:28   #93
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Default re: Red-Hot BMW: Story of my pre-owned BMW 320d Sport Line (F30 LCI). EDIT: 3 Years and 40,000km

Thanks for the feedback Dr AD! Will be looking forward to know how they wear, as they carry a treadwear rating which is 25% lower than the Bridgestone RFTs, which mean that the tyre lifetime could be that much lower.
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Old 24th October 2019, 11:56   #94
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Default re: Red-Hot BMW: Story of my pre-owned BMW 320d Sport Line (F30 LCI). EDIT: 3 Years and 40,000km

Quote:
Originally Posted by el lobo 6061 View Post
I guess you are the 1st BMW owner on T-Bhp having shod Michelin P3ZP tyres.
Seems like that. When I searched for the reviews of this tyre, I did not find a single review from India. All the reviews were from US and Europe. Seems like this tyre is very new in India, and it will be some time before many reviews start coming in from India.

Quote:
Plus these P3ZP comes with 6 years factory warranty.
Yes, good point. This is an additional bonus, although I wonder if tyre manufacturers actually admit any manufacturing defects once the tyre gets a bit old and used. So for all practical purposes any warranty over 1 year will be all the same.

Quote:
Next year when I renew BMW Secure; I might not do it. As its cheaper to buy RFT outside and you save on the upfront cost.
Agree. I did not opt for BMW Secure. The price they quoted for 1 year of Secure was more than the price of two tyres purchased from outside, and it did not make any sense to me.

Quote:
PS4ZP are harder tyres?
I assumed that to be the case, because Primacy 3 is after all a comfort series, and the PS4 is the sports series. Typically comfort series is softer than the sports series. I don't have a first-hand experience on PS4, so may be my assumption is wrong. Those who have used PS4 can share their opinions.

Quote:
Can you share Michelin India website link on the above product and sizes available. Couldn't locate it.
Well, looks like they don't sell it in India. Looks like I was wrong about PS4 ZP in India. Sorry about that. I saw these on the G20 330i, and when I inquired at Madhus, I was told these are not available for my size. Somehow I assumed there are available for the 18" sizes that 330i has. But looks like that is not the case. When I checked Michelin website in details, I see that PS4 ZP are not listed in India at all.

So in nutshell, Primacy 3ZP is the only option for Michelin RFTs in India at this moment.

Further, strangely enough, BMW dealers do not sell these tyres even though the 5 series comes with Primacy 3ZP as the OEM tyres. They only sell Continental and Bridgestone RFTs. This is really strange, and I assume this is only a temporary situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by d3mon View Post
Thanks for the feedback Dr AD! Will be looking forward to know how they wear, as they carry a treadwear rating which is 25% lower than the Bridgestone RFTs, which mean that the tyre lifetime could be that much lower.
Good point about the wear. Yes, the threadwear rating is lower than Bridgestone. But on the other hand, these tyres are more gripy, quieter and more comfortable than Bridgestone. So I guess lesser life is the cost to pay for that :-)

I will keep an eye on the wear and report it here.
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Old 24th October 2019, 12:33   #95
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Default re: Red-Hot BMW: Story of my pre-owned BMW 320d Sport Line (F30 LCI). EDIT: 3 Years and 40,000km

Thanks for this update.
What is the price of the Michelin RFTs?

My 330i came with Potenza S001s and I am quite happy with ride comfort actually (and I drive fast ) and RFTs really saved me once in a remote place, so I am not thinking of moving to normal tubeless. Only problem is exorbitant pricing of the RFTs. 24k for the front (225/45R18) and 29k for the rear (255/40R18) quoted by the BMW dealer is just nonsense! Need an alternative!
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Old 24th October 2019, 14:04   #96
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Default re: Red-Hot BMW: Story of my pre-owned BMW 320d Sport Line (F30 LCI). EDIT: 3 Years and 40,000km

Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
Thanks for this update.
What is the price of the Michelin RFTs?
The price is around Rs. 16.5k per tyre.

Quote:
My 330i came with Potenza S001s and I am quite happy with ride comfort actually (and I drive fast ) and RFTs really saved me once in a remote place, so I am not thinking of moving to normal tubeless. Only problem is exorbitant pricing of the RFTs. 24k for the front (225/45R18) and 29k for the rear (255/40R18) quoted by the BMW dealer is just nonsense! Need an alternative!
Even I was happy with the Potenza S001s, except for the road noise part. I did not have any complaints about ride quality, which was already good in F30 LCI. However, the road noise was a bit too loud.

Now with Michelins, the road noise is gone. The tyres are silent. And, in addition, the ride quality has further improved. So this is a win-win solution for me :-)

Yes, BMW dealers charge exorbitant prices for tyres. They don't have the Michelins, so I don't have a comparison point there. But for Bridgestone Potenza S001, in 225/50/R17 size, the BMW dealers charge somewhere around Rs. 20k per tyre. And the exact same tyre is available in any reputed tyre dealer for around Rs. 11k to 12k range. So the difference is huge.
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Old 24th October 2019, 14:35   #97
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Default re: Red-Hot BMW: Story of my pre-owned BMW 320d Sport Line (F30 LCI). EDIT: 3 Years and 40,000km

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.AD View Post
The price is around Rs. 16.5k per tyre.
...

But for Bridgestone Potenza S001, in 225/50/R17 size, the BMW dealers charge somewhere around Rs. 20k per tyre. And the exact same tyre is available in any reputed tyre dealer for around Rs. 11k to 12k range. So the difference is huge.
This is awesome!
Need to find something like Madhu's here in Pune. If you are in touch with them, can you ask them for some source in Pune please? Even the GTI tyre size is odd (215/45R16) and VW dealer is charging nonsense price for those, so with these German cars, it is mandatory that we find independent tyre shops!

Thanks in advance
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Old 24th October 2019, 15:29   #98
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Default re: Red-Hot BMW: Story of my pre-owned BMW 320d Sport Line (F30 LCI). EDIT: 3 Years and 40,000km

Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
This is awesome!
Need to find something like Madhu's here in Pune. If you are in touch with them, can you ask them for some source in Pune please?
Sure, I will check with Nikhilb2008, who is the owner of Madhus. In fact, I think Madhus has a newly opened branch in Pune, and that could serve all your tyre needs.

You can also PM Nikhilb2008 and check this.

Nikhil is the best person to give you all the information you need about tyre purchases.
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Old 25th October 2019, 00:19   #99
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Default re: Red-Hot BMW: Story of my pre-owned BMW 320d Sport Line (F30 LCI). EDIT: 3 Years and 40,000km

Quote:
Originally Posted by d3mon View Post
Will be looking forward to know how they wear, as they carry a treadwear rating which is 25% lower than the Bridgestone RFTs, which mean that the tyre lifetime could be that much lower.
Post reading your post got to understand that there are ratings for treadwear.

Did some research and its called Uniform Tire Quality Grading UTQG. Wikipedia Link.

3 parts
  1. Treadwear Number: Higher number means longer lasting tread
  2. Traction: AA is best, A, B, C
  3. Temperature: A is best, B, C
So did further research and following are ratings for below tyres

Bridgestone Turanza T001I 225 55 R17
Treadwear: 320
Traction: A
Temperature: A

Pirelli Cinturato P7
Treadwear: 260
Traction: AA
Temperature: A

As I have above two tyres on my X1; I find the numbers to be correct.

Pirelli P7 definitely has better traction and being softer will last lesser than Bridgestone Turanza T001I.

Michelin XM2 tyre is known to last longer. That one has a Treadwear rating of: 420
Continental CC5: 360
Bridgestone ER300: 400

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.AD View Post
Yes, good point. This is an additional bonus, although I wonder if tyre manufacturers actually admit any manufacturing defects once the tyre gets a bit old and used. So for all practical purposes any warranty over 1 year will be all the same.
Michelin does offer goodwill warranty. Like there was a cut and not covered under warranty but offered 50% Goodwill warranty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.AD View Post
I assumed that to be the case, because Primacy 3 is after all a comfort series, and the PS4 is the sports series. Typically comfort series is softer than the sports series. I don't have a first-hand experience on PS4, so may be my assumption is wrong. Those who have used PS4 can share their opinions.
Sport tyres are more softer for better grip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.AD View Post
Good point about the wear. Yes, the threadwear rating is lower than Bridgestone. But on the other hand, these tyres are more gripy, quieter and more comfortable than Bridgestone. So I guess lesser life is the cost to pay for that :-)

I will keep an eye on the wear and report it here.
Looking forward to it.

Since its comparable to Pirelli P7 Cinturato which are softer and I need one which are harder and Bridgestone Turanza T001I seems to better one with 320 rating.

I believe I have found the perfect tyre for X1, in Falken WILDPEAK A/T TRAIL.
Rating: 680-A-A

Sadly not available in India.

Last edited by Akshay1234 : 25th October 2019 at 02:47. Reason: editing spacing
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Old 30th October 2019, 13:29   #100
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Default Re: Tyre Change: Got Michelin Primacy 3 ZP (RFT)

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Originally Posted by Dr.AD View Post
....So for those sitting on fence about RFTs, I would recommend these new Michelin RFTs, either in Primacy 3 ZP form or better yet, in Pilot Sports 4 ZP form, and you will not regret! You will not go back to tubeless again. :-)

Thanks buddy, your reply is spot on to all my queries. I am running on Bridgestone RFT's same as yours and looking for upgrade, lets see if I manage to get the Michelin's at my city.
Meanwhile at around 30K, I still have some thread left but I am irritated with minute loss of pressure every week, around 2/3 Psi over 7 days time. Is it normal for RFT's after such running ?

Last edited by khan_sultan : 30th October 2019 at 16:58. Reason: trimmed quoted post
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Old 30th October 2019, 16:58   #101
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Default Re: Tyre Change: Got Michelin Primacy 3 ZP (RFT)

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Originally Posted by pf007 View Post
Thanks buddy, your reply is spot on to all my queries. I am running on Bridgestone RFT's same as yours and looking for upgrade, lets see if I manage to get the Michelin's at my city.
Meanwhile at around 30K, I still have some thread left but I am irritated with minute loss of pressure every week, around 2/3 Psi over 7 days time. Is it normal for RFT's after such running ?
Good point. I observed the same too - I was losing about 1psi every week, and was wondering why. And interestingly, it continues to be the case on the new tyres too. I lost about 2psi from each tyre in about 2 weeks and about 2800km of driving (made a couple of long trips in last two weeks).

I think the culprit is the valve, with the TPMS sensor attached. This is an unique assembly, and valve is integrated into the TPMS sensor (or vice versa). In other words, you can't just change the valves without changing the TPMS sensor.

Now usually when one gets new tyres, it also comes with new valves. But in my case, I could not use new valves because of the TPMS sensors. And I clearly saw at Madhus that one of the valves was a bit loose and was losing a lot of air. Madhus recommended me to change the valves, but it was not possible. So in summary, most likely, the valves are losing the air.

I guess when one change tyres at BMW dealers, they change the valves with new TPMS sensors, and probably charge you for that. Since I got the new tyres installed outside, I did not have this option. Anyways, my car is due for an oil change soon, and that time I will inquire about getting new valves with new TPMS sensors.

In any case, this is not a major issue. I usually top off the air with my portable compressor every 2 weeks, and a loss of about 2psi every two weeks is not a big deal.
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Old 30th October 2019, 18:12   #102
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Default Re: Tyre Change: Got Michelin Primacy 3 ZP (RFT)

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Originally Posted by Dr.AD View Post
Good point. I observed the same too - I was losing about 1psi every week, and was wondering why. And interestingly, it continues to be the case on the new tyres too. I lost about 2psi from each tyre in about 2 weeks and about 2800km of driving (made a couple of long trips in last two weeks).
Thanks again and a sigh relief to learn I am not the odd man out !
No way the valves with TPMS sensors are changed with the tyres at the workshop, be ready to shed extra if you log this complaint on the Job card.

The tyres are costly as they are all CBU and sourced as parts from there central warehouses serving India, the duties, dealer margins and upfront warranty charges make it heavy compared to after market price.

Last edited by ampere : 30th October 2019 at 18:28. Reason: Trimmed quoted post
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Old 31st October 2019, 00:38   #103
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Default Re: Tyre Change: Got Michelin Primacy 3 ZP (RFT)

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Originally Posted by Dr.AD View Post
I guess when one change tyres at BMW dealers, they change the valves with new TPMS sensors, and probably charge you for that.
Yup. Rs. 8,000 for TPMS valve and Rs. 500 for normal one.

BMW Workshop don't recommend changing tyre valve every time you put on new tyres unless TPMS has gone bad.
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Old 31st October 2019, 09:50   #104
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Default Re: Tyre Change: Got Michelin Primacy 3 ZP (RFT)

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Originally Posted by el lobo 6061 View Post
Yup. Rs. 8,000 for TPMS valve and Rs. 500 for normal one.
That is quite expensive! Especially Rs.500 for normal valves.

Quote:
BMW Workshop don't recommend changing tyre valve every time you put on new tyres unless TPMS has gone bad.
OK, that is what I thought too. That makes sense. In my case the TPMS sensors work fine, so I never saw the need to get new valves.

However, I was told that once the valve gets old, it hardens and it can leak air. I believe that is happening in most cases when people report losing a few psi of pressure consistently from all four RFTs. By law, every RFT is required to have the TPMS sensor, and thus, it is probably no coincidence that RFTs lose air pressure as reported.

If one tyre is leaking air, it could be a slow puncture. But when all four tyres lose air consistently, it is most probably the valves.
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Old 17th November 2019, 21:56   #105
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Default re: Red-Hot BMW: Story of my pre-owned BMW 320d Sport Line (F30 LCI). EDIT: 3 Years and 40,000km

Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
Have you done the highway drives in the night to confirm if the problem is fixed?

Yes, I am going to have to do this. As @ais mentioned, our regular phone LED is more powerful than this F30 LCI headlights!
Do you have any photos of whare exactly your high and low beams point at now?
I did some testing and adjustment today in various conditions to reach the final alignment. I am satisfied with the result, but will post once more after driving in fog. Based on feedback from my dealer in Mumbai, I suspect I will need to do something with the fog lights- probably see if a projector with yellow beams works there.

The key point to keep in mind while adjusting the beams are-

Make adjustments with a 6mm allen key with beams on High.

1. The left beam will need to point well towards the right. Do not look for intersection in the center.

2. The beams will need to be pointed more upwards than level when adjusting.

The low and high beams work together when on High beam.

It is the low beam that illuminates the road ahead. It moves up when switched to High beam mode. The high beam illuminates the vehicles and signboards ahead (and does a cracking job at it- better than a Lexus, Audi A3 etc that overtook me).

There is no way a workshop can achieve what I managed manually.

I don't think pictures would help, but will try in next trip.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by ais : 17th November 2019 at 21:57. Reason: Addition
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