[sridhar-v]

the whiteknight aka Akhilesh & yours truly met up on Thursday to compare our low beams. My car has halogens on all the lights. Last June I changed my high beam bulbs to Phillips Extremevision. the whiteknight has not changed stock halogens on the highs and fogs. The low beams have "P8" make 35W HIDs with 6000K temperature, from December 2013.

We took the cars to a deserted construction site. There was very little ambient light and so we could get a decent comparison. "the whiteknight" took the photos using his Galaxy S7 phone with the flash off. The camera was in auto mode and no further post processing has been done. One photo is from my Lenovo A6000 phone, which has a pretty crappy camera. We took frontal and side shots for all the combinations. The Beam Leveller was set at "0" for both the cars.

So let the pictures talk for themselves.

1. HID Low beam frontal shot


2. HID Low beam side view shot


3. HID Low + Halogen High frontal shot (taken from my phone)


4. HID Low + Halogen High side shot


5. Halogen Low beam frontal shot


6. Halogen Low Beam side shot


7. Halogen Low and High frontal shot


8. Halogen Low and High side shot


9. Both Fogs - frontal comparo
My lights, on the right, seem yellow as I have applied a tint film to the fog light glass



My impressions are as follows:

I] Low Beam.
The HID low beams have a throw of around 50 feet. The horizontal spread is also tightly controlled. Within the 50' the light flux is very high. The Halogens on the other hand have a throw of 100 feet with a horizontal spread that is more than that of the HIDs. The light flux is almost 1/2 or 1/3 of the HID. Upgrading my Halogens to Exremevisions would improve light fliux.

II} High Beam & Low Beam combo
In this case both the cars have Halogens on their high beams. Mine is a Phillips Extreme Vision which is only 1 year old and sparingly used. So it is as good as new. We do not know the history of the other car's high bulbs. But they seem to be pretty exhausted.

Using HIDs on the low is suitable for bumper to bumper city driving. However this is a problem for driving on semi-urban or rural roads with traffic. There is an illumination dark spot in the distance between 50' and 100'. Due to this one needs to switch on the high beam, but it annoys all the bike drivers. Also the bright foreground seems to destroy long range night vision. I came to these conclusions based on our static trials only.

The full Halogen setup is much better in this respect as one can manage on low beams for most of the time. However if a truck comes at you with lights blazing both near and far illumination is washed out. So one needs to slow down considerably. This is my experience based on a couple of hour's night driving in the Grand Vitara.

The main takeaway from our trials is that HID bulbs are not suited for the Grand Vitara's low beam projector. Rather than spend a packet on the HIDs it may be better to add a couple of 3D 18/30W flood led bars for assisting the near illumination. Mounting these in the grille area and aiming for a illumination range of 50-150 feet may be best. For the long distance it may be best to add a couple of 5D 30W spots.

This is a nice comparison of actual performance of high end halogens:
http://teknikensvarld.se/vart-test-a...-bilen-181624/

[sudev]

Worth linking to thread on lightning. Standard OE bulbs in use till date

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

We took the cars to a deserted construction site. There was very little ambient light and so we could get a decent comparison. "the whiteknight" took the photos using his Galaxy S7 phone with the flash off. The camera was in auto mode and no further post processing has been done.

Actually this is not an ideal setup for shooting the brightness of light. The camera in auto mode will increase or decrease exposure depending on the available light. If you shoot a 50W vs 100W light using the same camera, it will almost look the same because the camera will expose the first shot for twice as long.

For this kind of shoot, you will need a camera where the exposure can be set to manual. Only then the camera will not try to compensate for the difference in brightness of light.

I had to do this before:

Originally Posted by Samurai

I can't use any priority modes or automatic mode since they will change settings according to the given light. So I had to use Manual mode which doesn't change shutter or aperture depending on the TTL reading. Since it is dark, I also to had to kick up the ISO to 2000, kept the aperture at F/2.8 and speed at 25. Therefore the camera settings remained absolutely same under different light conditions. I was standing next to the right front door handle.

[sridhar-v]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Actually this is not an ideal setup for shooting the brightness of light. The camera in auto mode will increase or decrease exposure depending on the available light. If you shoot a 50W vs 100W light using the same camera, it will almost look the same because the camera will expose the first shot for twice as long.

For this kind of shoot, you will need a camera where the exposure can be set to manual. Only then the camera will not try to compensate for the difference in brightness of light.

I had to do this before:

Agree 100%.
Our meeting was arranged at short notice and both of us just about managed to pull it off. My camera is kaput and Akkhilesh forgot his SLR, so we relied on our phones. The photos were more of an afterthought.

One fact that came through in this test is that retrofitting HIDs in projectors, designed for halogens, is a waste of money.

The second learning is that mixing HIDs & halogens is a no-no. The difference in lux intensity, between low & high, destroys long distance night vision. That is why I feel using high wattage LED bars also will be problematic.

"the whiteknight" aka Akhilesh also brought along a LED torch. At maximum power it has a rating of 4000 lumens. The beam spread would be around 30degrees or so. We found that it was able to illuminate further than my high beams (which combined have around 2200-2400 Lumens). Also it could over power the light of the halogens at any of the spots that we shone it at. LED spots are the best solution for long distance illumination. My gut feeling is that 2nos 30W Cubes having 20 or 30 degree beam angle will be adequate without creating nuisance for others. (One would need to switch off the cubes for oncoming cars and 2-wheelers). I feel that a 10 degree spot, like Osram 4D models, would be too concentrated and create glare.

@Sudev I have posted a link in the Auto-Lighting thread.

[KaandBaaz]

Hey folks,

The GV has always caught my eye since the day it was launched. I am in the market for a new USED car. The car I had in my mind was another favourite, The Civic. Saw few cars but not more than 2 could impress me, and while searching for good specimens of the same came across a Grand Vitara 2.0 MT for sale in Pune. Its white colour and has 85k on the odo. Asking rate in 4.5 lacs with 3 owners. Car is currently with dealer on Park-n-sell basis. Dealer is ready to take the car to Maruti for inspection.

Can you folks please guide me on what all I need to get checked or does Maruti have a check-up list that they give us the same Honda does. Also is the price reasonable. I was thinking of giving him an offer of 3.75 lacs.

I would be using this car as a daily drive and not much to none of off-roading. I also have zero knowledge of using a 4 x 4. Please let me know if I should consider this because after reading the reviews over here I feel maintainence wise and FE wise Civic and GV would be the same rather I dont have to worry about the ground clearence with the GV.

TIA

I know this question is a bit stupid on the forum but would plonking a CNG sequential kit be advised for daily usage. My daily commute is on 55kms, one way being at the time of peak traffic. And the last question GV 2.0 MT "kitna deti hain" on petrol.

[minzanurag]

Originally Posted by KaandBaaz

Hey folks,

... Grand Vitara 2.0 MT for sale in Pune. Its white colour and has 85k on the odo. Asking rate in 4.5 lacs with 3 owners. Car is currently with dealer on Park-n-sell basis. Dealer is ready to take the car to Maruti for inspection.

. I also have zero knowledge of using a 4 x 4.

...I know this question is a bit stupid on the forum but would plonking a CNG sequential kit be advised for daily usage. My daily commute is on 55kms, one way being at the time of peak traffic. And the last question GV 2.0 MT "kitna deti hain" on petrol.

Hi KB,

Is this the same car which is listed on CarWale?.

Not to confuse you further, I was in a similar dilemma but couldnt take the plunge mainly because of the following reasons
1. Some of them I checked out (in Delhi/Mumbai/Pune) are overpriced
1. The car changing hands thrice - mileage does not match the vintage.
2. Being a 4x4, how do I make sure it has not been abused?
3. Some of the GVs I came across were CNG kitted. How relaiable are CNG kitted GVs?

I am still on the lookout, just playing wait and watch , till the time I give in

Regards,
Anurag

[sridhar-v]

Originally Posted by KaandBaaz

.....
Can you folks please guide me on what all I need to get checked or does Maruti have a check-up list that they give us the same Honda does. Also is the price reasonable. I was thinking of giving him an offer of 3.75 lacs.
..............

Firstly go over to Chougule's service centre and check the service records online. The records will show whether it has been serviced regularly. Walk away if things look dicey.
Only if you feel the condition is ok should you take the car to Chougule's service centre at Ambegaon or Katraj. PM me for the contact person's details. If you need a second opinion get in touch with me. Around 3.75-4.2 Lakhs would be a proper price for a good vehicle.

My AT gives 6-8 kmpl. I guess a manual will give about 8-10 kmpl in the city and upto 12-14 on the highway.

The Grand Vitara is a sturdy vehicle and nothing much goes wrong with a well maintained piece. Be aware that you are buying a 8-9 years old imported vehicle so some repairs will be costly.

It is a pleasure to drive on bad roads and one must definitely take it off-road.

CNG. That will harm the engine and leave you with nil boot space.

[sridhar-v]

Originally Posted by minzanurag

Hi KB,

Is this the same car which is listed on CarWale?.
......

I bought a 2007 AT that had already changed hands thrice. So not must of an issue there. Mileage needs to match with the service records.

Typically a 2007-2008 vehicle would have run between 60-80K kms.

Re 4x4 abuse - most owners would have never used it. If you find the transfer switch stuck in "N" or "4H" it has never been used off-road.
To check for physical damage you literally need to sleep below the vehicle to see if the transfer case, lower arms or diff cases have been hit.

In most cars the lower arm and steering joints bushes will have some play. Shock Absorbers may also be soft.

CNG is a no-no. It damages the engine. Besides it occupies the complete trunk, so you do not have any space for luggage.

Best of luck in your search.

[KaandBaaz]

Originally Posted by minzanurag

Hi KB,

Is this the same car which is listed on CarWale?.

Yes, have you checked it. If yes, do let me know of your findings about the car.

Originally Posted by minzanurag

Not to confuse you further, I was in a similar dilemma but couldnt take the plunge mainly because of the following reasons
1. Some of them I checked out (in Delhi/Mumbai/Pune) are overpriced
1. The car changing hands thrice - mileage does not match the vintage.

2. Being a 4x4, how do I make sure it has not been abused?

Same dilemma, have zero knowledge of 4x4. Neither have driven a 4x4 nor know how it works.

Originally Posted by minzanurag

3. Some of the GVs I came across were CNG kitted. How relaiable are CNG kitted GVs?

Did you test drive any of them? I plan to go CNG because it would be my daily drive and a dail running of 55km at an average of 10 is suicide.

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

Firstly go over to Chougule's service centre and check the service records online.

Going to see the car tomorrow, if I like the car will take it to MASS

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

Only if you feel the condition is ok should you take the car to Chougule's service centre at Ambegaon or Katraj.

Will surely do it sir.

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

PM me for the contact person's details. If you need a second opinion get in touch with me.

Your guidance would be appreciated.

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

Around 3.75-4.2 Lakhs would be a proper price for a good vehicle.

Thinking on the same lines.

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

My AT gives 6-8 kmpl. I guess a manual will give about 8-10 kmpl in the city and upto 12-14 on the highway.

11-13 is good , as the other car I was looking for , a Honda Civic will also turn out the same average.

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

The Grand Vitara is a sturdy vehicle and nothing much goes wrong with a well maintained piece. Be aware that you are buying a 8-9 years old imported vehicle so some repairs will be costly.

Have kept the same in mind. 15k yearly for maintenance is okay i presume.

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

It is a pleasure to drive on bad roads and one must definitely take it off-road.

If I buy it and get used to the size as I currently drive a OHC Vtec, will try off-roading (Again your valuable guidance would be required.)

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

I bought a 2007 AT that had already changed hands thrice. So not must of an issue there. Mileage needs to match with the service records.

Typically a 2007-2008 vehicle would have run between 60-80K kms.

This specimen has run 85k

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

Re 4x4 abuse - most owners would have never used it. If you find the transfer switch stuck in "N" or "4H" it has never been used off-road.
To check for physical damage you literally need to sleep below the vehicle to see if the transfer case, lower arms or diff cases have been hit.

I am lost here, this sounds like hebrew to me.

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

In most cars the lower arm and steering joints bushes will have some play. Shock Absorbers may also be soft.

CNG is a no-no. It damages the engine. Besides it occupies the complete trunk, so you do not have any space for luggage.

Any particular reason for saying so. I have seen Accords, Beemer 3 series, Civics, CR-V refueling with CNG at the Kothrud CNG near my house. Any pointers on this would be appreciated.

[thewhiteknight]

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

Agree 100%.

Originally Posted by KaandBaaz

CNG. That will harm the engine and leave you with nil boot space.

I have a 2008 2.0 MT 85K in nearly superman condition-as attested by Sridhar-v. You can come across and drive it-albeit a short drive -to understand what a well cared for example feels like. I get about 9 kmpl in the city and about 11 on the highways. Both with the AC always on, set to 21.

Coming to your specimen, your car, if in brilliant condition, it should not cost you more than 3.5L, being bought from a dealer. I bought mine, privately, in December '13 with a genuine 60k on the ODO for 4.5L. This was after I agreed to pay him 50K for the JVC system, 8 speakers, etc. and absolutely ZERO bargaining. Till date, in the last 20k odd kms, I have paid a maximum of 15k towards maintenance. This includes fluid changes, Bosch aerotwins, HIDs and some more random stuff like that. From a mechanical standpoint, there has been nothing else to change!! Ridiculously reliable.

For your purchase, consider things like tyres or the spare tyre lid or battery or lights or body condition, depending on registration area. If any or all of these need attention, you can probably bring him down to 3.00. The critical thing to remember with the GV is that it is a very reliable vehicle. Combine that with the smaller overall profile and a proper low range box, and priced under 5L, it is a no brainer. That is, if you plan on holding on to it for a while.

However, if you want a quick turnaround vehicle, not something you will hold onto for a while, the GV is just not your vehicle. Resale values are going to stink. But, in the time that you can't sell your GV, you will still be able to take up nasty roads and inaccessible areas and get back with a bit of mud maybe, and still put it up for sale. A nut like Sridhar or me might still pick it up, just to have a spare GV in our parking lot! That's how good it is.

Forgive me, I am not even going to address the CNG/LPG factor! For the love of God, it is a bit-No, massively blasphemous-to consider either of these. It can be done but dharmic tatti, what have you done!

[vigsom]

^^ To add to what @Sridhar- V and @thewhitenight have just said , GVs are built with very high quality components and thus are built to last.

My only sore point in my approx. 2 years of ownership is the FE. But that is a small negative given the benefits of low capital , hi snob value,ageless design and rock solid reliability.I cannot think of any other vehicle in the market today if I were to decide to swap.

I have studied enough cng cars during my 20+ years in Gujarat and must say it isn't a bad option to have if usage is high.I have known cars that have done over 2 lac kms on cng without damage to the engine.

Yes , CNGing involves an aftermarket kit - Electronic parts viz. Emulator , Timing Advance Processor ,Lambda Controller and mechanical parts like the cylinder , reducer , valves , tubing and accessories , plus mandatory periodical testing and certification of the cylinder .All this would call for additional attention. The plug gap would also change for CNG so running it on petrol will not be at the recommended plug gap of 1.1mm.

If you are prepared for the extra attention while sacrificing boot space , there is no harm in looking at it as long as the car has been maintained well.

[sridhar-v]

Originally Posted by KaandBaaz

CNG. That will harm the engine and leave you with nil boot space.

This specimen has run 85k

Re 4x4 abuse - most owners would have never used it. If you find the transfer switch stuck in "N" or "4H" it has never been used off-road.
To check for physical damage you literally need to sleep below the vehicle to see if the transfer case, lower arms or diff cases have been hit. I am lost here, this sounds like hebrew to me.

In most cars the lower arm and steering joints bushes will have some play. Shock Absorbers may also be soft.

CNG is a no-no. It damages the engine. Besides it occupies the complete trunk, so you do not have any space for luggage. Any particular reason for saying so. I have seen Accords, Beemer 3 series, Civics, CR-V refueling with CNG at the Kothrud CNG near my house. Any pointers on this would be appreciated.

Best of luck in your search.

85K is normal for the vehicle. You will need to change all fluids (7-15K costs). Also a change of the engine belt will be due(15K). Some suspension bushes and steering joints may need replacement. Budget for a minimum expense of 50K.

The Grand Vitara has bullet proof reliability. I do not want to mess with that as I do not want to get stranded in the middle of a forest. Adding a "proper" CNG kit costs 55-100K. ROI is nothing great for my usage. Besides I plan to use it for long distance trips. I have found that Petrol availability on highways is spotty, leave aside CNG. So, if I am going on a 3000 km round trip to the interiors, I do not want to spend significant time searching for CNG.
I bought the car for 4.75L. I spent 75K on essential repairs. If I had wanted to buy new the only vehicle that I could have thought of was an Ecosport AT at 11.5L. So the savings of 6L offsets fuel expenses.

We can help you out asses the vehicle once you have done the basic checking of service records and ownership papers. I stay in Nav Sahyadri Soc. That is close to your place. So drop in if you want to check out my car. Give me a ring first (9423005043).

Originally Posted by thewhiteknight

Coming to your specimen, your car, if in brilliant condition, it should not cost you more than 3.5L, being bought from a dealer. I bought mine, privately, in December '13 with a genuine 60k on the ODO for 4.5L. This was after I agreed to pay him 50K for the JVC system, 8 speakers, etc. and absolutely ZERO bargaining. ....

Pricing of Grand Vitaras is dynamic. It also depends on the condition of the car and routine maintenance points that were overlooked. In my case AT models are rare. So when I checked out the vehicle I found the owner was passionate about the car. Only when he realised that I will be using the vehicle for bad roading and long distance drives did he relax. He specifically did not want to sell it to anybody who would convert it to CNG. He was open about the issues and so we did not bargain as such. His expectation was 5L. We reduced 15K for denting work, 5K for battery and 5K for steering bushing replacement and had a deal. (Though it did turn out that the steering issue did cost a lot more. But I do not regret it.)
The previous owner got emotional when handing over the car. It was almost like he was sending off his daughter. You need to own a Grand Vitara to understand this attachment.

So coming down to price- you may feel some amount is fair value. The seller may be expecting a higher amount and is not budging. If the vehicle is good it makes sense to pay 20-30K more to close the deal. Worth it if you plan to keep the vehicle for a long term.

Akhilesh and yours truly are really nuts about our Grand Vitaras. It helps that our better halves are equally besotted about their "soutens" and enthusiastic about going places. My SWMBO spend a significant time on Google maps searching for trails and difficult places that we can visit.

Originally Posted by vigsom

Yes , CNGing involves an aftermarket kit - Electronic parts viz. Emulator , Timing Advance Processor ,Lambda Controller and mechanical parts like the cylinder , reducer , valves , tubing and accessories , plus mandatory periodical testing and certification of the cylinder .All this would call for additional attention. The plug gap would also change for CNG so running it on petrol will not be at the recommended plug gap of 1.1mm.

If you are prepared for the extra attention while sacrificing boot space , there is no harm in looking at it as long as the car has been maintained well.

It all boils down to a trade off on initial capital outlay, running costs and what premium you are ready to pay for reliability and usable trunk space. That is a call each buyer has to take.

[KaandBaaz]

Hey Folks thanks a lot for your inputs and suggestions, but after thinking for a day or two and looking at all the factors and the said specimen of GV , I have decide to keep the plan to acquire a GV on hold and go on with the initial plan of purchasing a Honda Civic. Grand Vitara will be on the mind, and if any good specimen comes up in the market after a year or two, when the family grows, will purchase it.

Till then happy off-roading and mile-munching to all the GV owners. Cheers!!

[sudev]

A white 2008 GV with 100000+ on odometer being sold by a friend in Gurgaon.

[spgv]

Originally Posted by KaandBaaz

I know this question is a bit stupid on the forum but would plonking a CNG sequential kit be advised for daily usage. My daily commute is on 55kms, one way being at the time of peak traffic. And the last question GV 2.0 MT "kitna deti hain" on petrol.

Was in similar situation a few weeks back. Finally bought a GV 2008 this june with 1.06 lac Km on the ODO. i am the 3rd owner and the car has complete service history with MASS. Negotiated from 3.5lac point to 3.2.
IMO if the car is in good condition you could have quoted 3.75 to a individual(real good condition car with genuine 85K and service records) and 3.5 Lac to a dealer.
Goodluck with your hunt