[gowda79]

Originally Posted by suman

To be honest, there are enough issues that I've heard about the "mind" SUVs as well - its just that all owners may not have been as free & frank about sharing the experiences (my perception). I've seen a few posts of the following variety in the past couple of months only when someone has posted his experiences (hats off to the gentleman for being fortright enough to share these on the forum) -
oh that, yes it had happened on mine as well
oh, X&X haven't been able to resolve gearbox issues.

Suman ji very well said

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by zenx

Its not like everything else is utterly reliable and not fun, and the Safari is utterly unreliable and lots of fun.

Well, depends on what constitutes 'everything else' in your post. If you take an OHC/Baleno for instance, it is utterly reliable in the sense that one needs to visit the A.S.S. only every 10k kms for scheduled services. But does that mean these cars are no fun ? No. They are fun to drive too. But do they give you/me the SUV kinda fun ? No. But that is not a failing in any way, since a car is not supposed to have it.

Since we are talking about a Safari here, in that segment and price point I can see only the Scorpio. I have no idea how it fares on reliability vis-a-vis the Safari, but I know for a fact that it definitely sells a lot more, though I fail to understand why. Because looks/road-presence is IMO a major criteria of car-buying and here the Safari just blows the Scorpio away. Or is it that Safari reliability issues are so well-known even among general buyers that they avoid it ? I don't think so. If not for tbhp, I would have had no clue about these issues.

If I had to choose between the two, inspite of knowing Safari's reliability issues, I think I would choose it because I just don't like the way the Scorpio looks - does not do it for me. That would be a calculated risk because instead of driving a reliable (comparitively) SUV that I do not really like, I am opting for one my heart likes, but which comes with a compromise that I am mentally prepared for.

And to make this decision, a buyer doesn't really need a poll. Reading a few ownership threads would make it clear to him whether he has it in him or not to handle what a Safari ownership could 'possibly' come with.

Originally Posted by zenx

To me the assignment of tags such as "heart" and "mind" etc seem dismissive of the others' reasons.

No, even though it might seem dismissive, it is not the case. Look at it like this. We are in a day and age where 'most' auto-manufacturers roll out cars from the assembly line that can work atleast 5 years or more without even a single minor glitch with just scheduled services done on time and where warranty is something that is provided, but almost never exercised. So a 'mind' decision would be to buy one such car/SUV.

But if inspite of this knowledge, one opts for a car/SUV that requires repeated exercise of warranty, innumerable change of parts, strandings, many visits to the A.S.S etc and all this in the initial days of ownership itself, then the impetus for the decision is some other 'heart' reason associated with that car. These could include looks/road-presence of the SUV or a childhood dream of owning one, a preference for SUVs, driving fun of the SUV etc etc.

So, take your pick of the two.

[adc]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

And to make this decision, a buyer doesn't really need a poll. Reading a few ownership threads would make it clear to him whether he has it in him or not to handle what a Safari ownership could 'possibly' come with.

This poll meant for me to see how a 2.2 owner rates his SUV, like giving a choice only after covering at least 15K km - second service. As this thread is a branch of main LTOR thread, and not in intial experience thread.

And it is not that in this poll I would only like to see 2.2 come out as a winner - foremost it should be objective.

But then poll right now has IDs from absolute non-owners to doubtful owners to Safari 3.0 owners. This isn't going anywhere and the poll .

[deepgautam_qa]

Every fifth Safari 2.2 owner has faced major issues (incl. PAIN WALE). This is certainly not a good picture!

Note: I own neither a Safari nor a Scorpio...and I haven't voted as I'm not eligible.

Cheers!!!

[suman]

Originally Posted by deepgautam_qa

Every fifth Safari 2.2 owner has faced major issues (incl. PAIN WALE). This is certainly not a good picture!

Deep, you have merely repeated what Tanveer has said a couple of pages ago -

Originally Posted by tsk1979

wow 20% of owners have either have had major issues, or are too pained by the vehicle. Its high time Tata wakes up! Normally no more than 5% of users should have such problems.

I know there's safety in numbers but couldn't figure out if you are merely trying to increase your post count? Also, couldn't understand how the Scorpio comes into your post?

[kb100]

I reiterate my point - regardless of any figures this, or any other poll, may throw up, regardless of reams of evidence anecdotal or otherwise, anyone buying the Safari will still do it for the LOVE of it. And mind has NOTHING to do with it! (save to condition oneself and perhaps even look forward in anticipation to the next 'niggle')

I conclude, that in my opinion, this thread does nothing to help a potential buyer (.. that is the stated intent.. right?) because there is no way of ensuring participation in the poll in first place - maybe the majority of the ones who are happy have not taken part at all! (haven't heard of T-Bhp.. too busy reclaiming their life, etc)

The only way of doing this with any reasonable degree of accuracy is to take the relevant sales and service data from the dealer/service point and then run an analysis on it AFTER having agreed on what exactly would constitute a 'niggle' - duh/minor/major/pain ! (.. these are all adjectives and can vary wildly from person to person)

Till then - claiming to be THE ULTIMATE Safari 2.2 RELIABILITY POLL is both highly pretentious, and misleading!

[zenx]

All owners/those not on TBhp - out of my scope and influence. For the rest, am trying to diligently highlight those who voted and are NOT owners (see earlier posts). Since the subjective stuff here is also limited to TBhpians, I think creating TBhp-scope objective data is a fair attempt, though sure, agree its not something that'll stand scrutiny in court/from a statistician

Anyhow - i'll let the owners decide if they want to vote. And the prospective buyers decide if it was useful. I actually went through almost every ownership experience posted, and noted down what I thought were actual owner experiences before arriving at my conclusions (not discussing those here) - so I thought a distilled version would be a nice resource to create.

Mods - if this thread is not useful/counter-productive - please feel free to delete it.

Edit : Request only Safari 2.2 owners to vote. Also, sincerely request all to keep opinions, unless as an explanation wrt to the vote, out of this thread - there's tonnes of those on TBhp elsewhere.

@KVS : Noticed your love for the Safari. But I think you have an Indica, unless I missed something.

[deepgautam_qa]

Originally Posted by suman

Deep, you have merely repeated what Tanveer has said a couple of pages ago -

I know there's safety in numbers but couldn't figure out if you are merely trying to increase your post count? Also, couldn't understand how the Scorpio comes into your post?

Suman, like you I am also free to express my views......I simply commented on the poll result and that being similar to what Tanveer says is a coincidence.......please avoid making comments like "trying to increase your post count", as increasing post count doesn't make a sense for me.....does it for you?
I am not an Auto Expert like you but yes I am also someone who loves T-BHP and tries to contribute in the best possible manner.And I never make fun of others.

Scorpio comes into the pictures because I have suffered bashing by some Safari owners (assuming as if I am a Safari critic and come from Scorpio advocating school) whenever I gave my unbiased opinion about Safari.

[rrsteer]

A bit late , just want to stress that even I don't attach much value to equating buying a Safari as a 'heart' decision

Can prove that in my case.

My requirements are very well defined:

1) Space ..more the merrier
2) Comfortable ride : we are always on the go, we need a car which minimizes off days caused due to tiredness
3) Should be a highway car
4) Should look good (you know ..yaaran da tashan...types :-))
5) Not expensive to maintain
6) Should cost me no more than 8 lacs

Now as I see it, I don't have another choice except for a Safari.

Scorpio is ruled out because it rides like a ship on choppy waters yet doesnot have the cargo capacity of a ship!

Innova has higher entry costs, taxi image, slightly cramped, plus its a bit too car like.

[supremeBaleno]

zenx, inspite of your mentioning clearly that the poll is only for 2.2 owners, you would have people voting even when they dont own one. It is kinda difficult to prevent that. But what you can do is to send out PMs to those that are known to have 2.2s and ask them to vote and post their opinion.

So even if someone has not been on tbhp for sometime, he will see the PM in his email Inbox (if option selected) or will see the PM pop-up when he logs in. This could lead to him/her voting on the poll. That way the sample size increases and a better picture emerges.

[kb100]

Originally Posted by zenx

Mods - if this thread is not useful/counter-productive - please feel free to delete it.

Zenx.. This is NOT an attempt to belittle your effort, or intention. I truly hope I have not given that impression.

What I meant is for a layman .. doing his research .. walking into Tbhp and finding a thread claiming to be the ULTIMATE? ... get the drift?

Of course we can have a poll, discussion, debate etc .. That is what we are here for. But we have to be careful with the language used - lest we mislead people. Secondly an opinion poll is best when you have a clear YES or NO questions. Anything else brings about a lot of subjectivity - and you will struggle to get people to agree to the nomenclature!

Perhaps.. Perhaaaaps - an additional option asking if these owners are happy with their steeds, and whether they will buy/recommend a Safari again might help put the whole thing in perspective!

Once again - I am sorry .. Please forgive me if I am wrong!

[zenx]

Originally Posted by kb100

Zenx.. This is NOT an attempt to belittle your effort, or intention. I truly hope I have not given that impression.

What I meant is for a layman .. doing his research .. walking into Tbhp and finding a thread claiming to be the ULTIMATE? ... get the drift?

Of course we can have a poll, discussion, debate etc .. That is what we are here for. But we have to be careful with the language used - lest we mislead people. Secondly an opinion poll is best when you have a clear YES or NO questions. Anything else brings about a lot of subjectivity - and you will struggle to get people to agree to the nomenclature!

Perhaps.. Perhaps - just an additional option asking if these owners are happy with their steeds and whether they will buy/recommend a Safari again might put the whole thing in perspective!

Once again - I am sorry .. Please forgive me if I am wrong!

Cool. Agree - I included the "Ultimate" bit for grabbing 2.2 owner eyeballs to get the ball rolling Mods, perhaps we could change that to "The Safari 2.2 Relaibility Poll" or some such.

Adding another option:
a) don't know how to
b) opens a can of works/arguments/subjectivity. Have tried to provide explanations for each option to make it as objective as something like this can be.

Anyhow - this is the last post on this thread from my end but for pointing out the non-owners. Will sit back and watch, now.

[suman]

Wow, I seemed to have touched a raw nerve!

Originally Posted by deepgautam_qa

please avoid making comments like "trying to increase your post count",

Not a comment, was a question......

Originally Posted by deepgautam_qa

does it for you?

Nope, not at this level.

Originally Posted by deepgautam_qa

I am not an Auto Expert like you but yes I am also someone who loves T-BHP and tries to contribute in the best possible manner.And I never make fun of others.

Where did that bit in italics about Auto Expert come in - sarcasm? Surely you are not giving me that complimentary title, are you? Because I do not call myself an Auto Expert, enthusiast "yes"

Originally Posted by deepgautam_qa

I have suffered bashing by some Safari owners (assuming as if I am a Safari critic and come from Scorpio advocating school) whenever I gave my unbiased opinion about Safari.

Yet to see anything other than TML & Safari bashing come from you but maybe I've missed all the nice posts

[deepgautam_qa]

Originally Posted by suman

Wow, I seemed to have touched a raw nerve!

Surprised to see you enjoying making fun of somebody

Not a comment, was a question......

Does it make a difference....would you like similar a question for you?

Where did that bit in italics about Auto Expert come in - sarcasm? Surely you are not giving me that complimentary title, are you? Because I do not call myself an Auto Expert, enthusiast "yes"

I have been reading your posts for almost two years and it is pretty evident that you are an expert......italics was not used as a sarcastic emphasis......you took it negative...

Full stop from my side.

Regards!!!

[hkborah]

I am a newbie at T-BHP. I have bought 2 cars in my lifetime. Both have been Tata Safaris. I am about to replace my 2nd Safari (2004, 80000 Kms, 4X2 EX) for a 2.2 VTT, but after reading this thread I am actually contemplating whether I should.
I am not voting here, but wish to help you in making your decision. As someone rightly put it, buying this car is part head and mostly heart. You decide what is the weightage you wish to give to each. If you go with 100% head, I would recommend you not to buy this vehicle, or for that matter ant Tata product. The only part of head which agrees to a Safari purchase is 140 bhp, 320 Nm torque at 7.5 lakh rupees (Ex showroom) across all segments - Indian, Imported, Sedan, Petrol, Diesel. Add to it the comfort, the AC, the "cool" factor. None of my cars has had any problems with the engine. It is everywhere else that you have a problem with. 2.2 shares most of the everything with the old Tcic. Now how much these irritate you, you only are to decide.
You have decided on a used car. IMHO, if you wish to "rough-use" her, go for a used TcIc. If you are a someone with a major wanderlust, go for the Tcic. It is less sensitive to bad fuel, does not need overly qualified mechanics, shares parts with Sumo Turbo, Winger etc - anyone in a rural area will be able to fix it, atleast to the point of reaching the next big city. You should get a wonderful deal for under 3 lakhs, maybe 2 lakhs if you are lucky. Spend the rest of the money on fuel and doing her up. Do the extra 5-10 seconds to reach 100 kmph matter to you? Does the 10 kmph extra top speed matter enough? or the additional 2 - 3 kmpl. 2.2 VTT is HIGH RISK HIGH RETURN. If you are lucky, it possibly will not give you any trouble. But if it does, you are likely to be in a soup. Repairs are going to be more expensive. Much more expensive. TCiC, long as you avoid the TASS, you will not have major expenses. (I was asked to change my turbo when the pipe connecting the Engine and the Turbo was clogged. Got the pipe cleaned and saved atleast 39,000 rupees (40000 - 1000).
In short, decide what works for you, what is the basket of fruits you are looking for, and go for it.
Getting the 2.2 VTT brand new with a 2+2 year warranty is another thing.

~Hope I have managed to help