[Hammer & Anvil]

In the past 4 years I drove my Scorpio SLX (the model without the pata-suspension) over 185000Km, and suprisingly, a few 'repeating issues' came up over this distance. I finally sold it last week and am waiting for the delivery of the VLX-BS IV, of which M&M and Global Gallarie keep changing the delivery dates.

0. Music system removed within first 500Km and replaced with a standard Pioneer head unit and standard 6x9 Pioneer speakers encased in floor mounted boxes. This remains a sore point ever since they reinforced the rear portion above the back door and prevented you from installing 5x8s.

1. Rear suspension bushings every 25-28K Km. Cost of replacement 8-8,500/- The rear of the vehicle starts to sway at speeds over a 100, and it gets worse over the next 2K Km, that you cant even drive on a open city road over 50Kmph. Replacing the bushes was the only answer, and there was no solution to this over the past 4 years. The wheel bearings stood up to the use/abuse and ever had to 'open' the suspension, well other than to replace the bearings.

2. Clutch - every 25,000Km till when at 80,000 (third clutch) they said the company had revised the design/material/vendor... after which the next clutch change was at 145000.

3. Bridgestone tires (first set lasted 65K Km). Apollo- big mistake- 35000, then Bridgestone for the next 50K, and currently on Bridgestone. But the front tires in both brands aquaplaned at 40+ speeds, and if you 'splashed water,' the front tires threw up water on ones own windshield. I wonder which joker from M&M checked the front air dam design to enable this?

4. Amazingly personal service from Nagaur in Rajasthan to Cochin to Sriganganagar, and Amrtisar to Indore. This is the MAIN reason I am buying the same vehicle again.

5. Diesel average was between consistent between 8.4 to 8.8 KmpL. But to give credit to more reasonable driving, when the wife drove it over the first Lavasa Womens Rally, she managed to eke out 13.5KmpL. M&M should design the tank to have a range of 700Km for it to be a real nice tourer.

6. One Bosch fuel injector blown at 22500Km. AC Compressor replaced at 90000Km, but no issues ever on that count. Both were replaced at company cost under the extended warranty. BTW- The AC--Chilled, instant, on-demand, immaterial of external environment vagaries.

7. Electrical system perfect. Never a blown fuse.

8. Poor wiper blades, replaced with Bosch blades, every monsoon. Body panels, rubber linings- perfect- never a leak in Mumbai monsoons.

9. Seat fabric prone to staining even with the 'sweat' from cold water bottles.

10. One irritating cross-member under the front seats that prevents the middle seat passenger from 'extending his feet atleast another 3-4 inches. Poor design for making a seat brace.

11. Excellent mirrors at all speeds.

12. Speeds- The new vehicle did 155+ when gunned, but settled down to a highway max of 135... It would run faster than that to about 150, but IMHO 130-135 was where it just about would stop talking to the road. The only thing that would hamper speeds was the clogging of the air filter, which would really impair acceleration and limit the top speed to <100Kmph. Change filter, instant 'back to normal' performance.

13. Body/Paint- Zero complaints. No fade or deforming, no loose panels, no peeling/flaking seen anywhere.

14. Final - First gear started to slip under load, the 1st and 3rd gear sprockets were 'eaten' to shreds. Rs. 16,000 to open the gear box, replace the 2 gears + the main shaft.

14. Repeat. Across the nation- prompt and amazing service.

The new mHawk is come and has done 20,000 in about 6 months. A review should come in about a month.

Images- Poonch to Cochin are being prepped, and will be up over the weekend for those interested.

Regards,

KD.

[TaureanBull]

A very detailed review. Thanks a ton for that. I would like to know if the points you mentioned are valid for both the vehicles or just the old one? What all points you feel have been refined in the new vehicle?

You drive quite a lot! Almost 4k every month!

[hvkumar]

I am a little surprised at the number of replacements you have done. My Scorpio has done 2,59,000 kms in 6 years, and let me compare yours with some of my problems below:

Originally Posted by Hammer & Anvil

1. Rear suspension bushings every 25-28K Km. Cost of replacement 8-8,500/- The rear of the vehicle starts to sway at speeds over a 100, and it gets worse over the next 2K Km, that you cant even drive on a open city road over 50Kmph. Replacing the bushes was the only answer, and there was no solution to this over the past 4 years. The wheel bearings stood up to the use/abuse and ever had to 'open' the suspension, well other than to replace the bearings.

I have broken 15 leaf springs, which must be some record! There is (or was) some basic asymmetry in my Scorpio's suspension. I have also changed all shocks.

2. Clutch - every 25,000Km till when at 80,000 (third clutch) they said the company had revised the design/material/vendor... after which the next clutch change was at 145000.

I changed the clutch plate first time at 95,000 kms (as a preventive maintenance measure, it was still running fine), but the second time had to be changed at 1,40,000 kms thanks to M&M ASC's muffing up teh first time - they did not have clutch release bearing in stock and they had to pt an old one in, maybe that resulrted in premature failure. But after that, the present clutch plate is running for the last 1,15,000 kms.

3. Bridgestone tires (first set lasted 65K Km). Apollo- big mistake- 35000, then Bridgestone for the next 50K, and currently on Bridgestone. But the front tires in both brands aquaplaned at 40+ speeds, and if you 'splashed water,' the front tires threw up water on ones own windshield. I wonder which joker from M&M checked the front air dam design to enable this?

First set of BS tyres lasted 75,000 kms, the second set 70,000 kms. My present Yokos are too soft and they last just 60-65,000 kms.

4. Amazingly personal service from Nagaur in Rajasthan to Cochin to Sriganganagar, and Amrtisar to Indore. This is the MAIN reason I am buying the same vehicle again.

If there is one reason not to buy a M&M again, it is the poor quality of service at ASCs. I have switched to non-ASC servicing in the last 1 year, fed up of the poor quality of service at some of M&M's "best" dealers, one of whom is just 5 minutes away from my house!

5. Diesel average was between consistent between 8.4 to 8.8 KmpL. But to give credit to more reasonable driving, when the wife drove it over the first Lavasa Womens Rally, she managed to eke out 13.5KmpL. M&M should design the tank to have a range of 700Km for it to be a real nice tourer.

In my non-crde SCorpio, lifetime FE is 10.16 kmpl. Nowadays, I get better mileage, consistently 11 kmpl. Purely a function of tyre pressure.

6. One Bosch fuel injector blown at 22500Km. AC Compressor replaced at 90000Km, but no issues ever on that count. Both were replaced at company cost under the extended warranty. BTW- The AC--Chilled, instant, on-demand, immaterial of external environment vagaries.

Original alternator serviced twice - changed bearings, stator, regulators - and fuel pump has O Ring leak, but never opened it up.

7. Electrical system perfect. Never a blown fuse.

Good electrical system, but have blown fuses, mostly of horn.

8. Poor wiper blades, replaced with Bosch blades, every monsoon. Body panels, rubber linings- perfect- never a leak in Mumbai monsoons.

Changed blades many times, but of late, I notice that they last longer if you clean them of dust particles every time you start the vehicle. Have changed windscreen water nozzles 3 times.

Poor propeller shafts - have changed them twice.
Front wheel discs worn out, changed them twice.
Lots of coolant, turbo hoses changed.
Minor leak in brake feed pipe caused several months of braking problems.
Had major problems with balancing/stabiliser rod assembly and link rods, all linked to some major issues with suspension.
Changed batteries 3 times.

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by Hammer & Anvil

In the past 4 years I drove my Scorpio SLX (the model without the pata-suspension) over 185000Km, and suprisingly, a few 'repeating issues' came up over this distance.

Originally Posted by hvkumar

I am a little surprised at the number of replacements you have done. My Scorpio has done 2,59,000 kms in 6 years, and let me compare yours with some of my problems below

It would be great if both of you could share the rough cost of ownership per kilometer over this long period of ownership. This would be really helpful to all the current and future Scorpio owners like me.

Also, let me ask you people a question:

Do you veteran and high mileage owners of the Scorpio feel that a Scorpio, if reasonably well maintained can last as much as a Toyota for example?

Also Hammer and Anvil, could you please tell me the reasons for choosing a Scorpio again over its competitors in detail.

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by hvkumar

I have broken 15 leaf springs, which must be some record! There is (or was) some basic asymmetry in my Scorpio's suspension. I have also changed all shocks.

HVK Sir, 15 broken leaf springs is surprising, I have never heard even Mahindra load carriers breaking so many springs. Did the master leafs broke always? What about the Leaf spring and chassis bushes?

Spike

[shankar.balan]

Hi Mr Kumar
what is the tyre pressure you use?
I have been consistently sticking with 32 psi all round on the stock OEM Bridgestone 235 70 16 which came with my Crde machine. I ve done only 38.5K kms so far in almost 3 years since I bought it.
I have been getting a standard 10 -10.5 in city with AC and 12.5-13 on highways with AC and keeping speeds between 90-110 kmph.
While I am satisfied with the above I would like to know what tyre pressure you are maintaining so that I can also test it out.

[quote=hvkumar;2258952]IIn my non-crde SCorpio, lifetime FE is 10.16 kmpl. Nowadays, I get better mileage, consistently 11 kmpl. Purely a function of tyre pressure.

[hvkumar]

shankar.balan, tyre pressure is something one has to customise to one's driving conditions and tyre brand. I normally drive alone or with 1 other person in teh car most of teh time. With BS tyres, I used to get excellent results - soft ride and good FE - even at 29 psi, but with the Yokos, 32 psi is more appropriate. I have been trying different tyre pressures with my new set of Yokos tyres and found 30 psi a disaster (FE <10), but am currently riding on 31 psi (to consistently get 10.5 kmpl +).

SPIKE ARRESTOR, yes, the number of leaf spring breakages I have had are extremely unusual. However, you must remember that they have broken over a period of 6 years and in some unusual circumstances:
- the breakage history was triggered off by some carelessness at M&MASC who refitted the leaves (after recambering) without putting in any of the bushes. Predictably, I broke 5 in one go within 3 weeks of that work.
- I also broke 3 during a trip to Ladakah
- I had to change 2 thanks to an alleged "mismatch" in the leaves, which led to further breakage
- I had a trying situation when a failed rear shock absorber (LHS) got jammed and refused to come off, and the ensuing imbalance and delay in replacing it meant a major imbalance in the suspension - wearing out of front LHS link rod bushes, loosening of front stabiliser rods, and more leaves breaking!

Yes, I have changed the main leaf also twice, but in all other times it was the subordinate leaves. I have been recambering the leaf springs at least once every 30-50,000 kms and changed the suspension bushes 4 times so far.

n.devdath, the cost of maintenance per km is Rs 1.86 (calculated till 2,41,000 kms), of which the major cost component is tyres which is 1/6th of total costs, followed by brakes & suspension repair costs which aggregate to 50 paisa.

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by hvkumar

- the breakage history was triggered off by some carelessness at M&MASC who refitted the leaves (after recambering) without putting in any of the bushes.

HVK Sir, although you travel single, still, did you experience any change in ride after recambering of rear leaf springs?

Spike

[hvkumar]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

HVK Sir, although you travel single, still, did you experience any change in ride after recambering of rear leaf springs?

Spike

Yes, definitely, ride quality definitely improves. Before the recambering, the leaf springs were misaligned and not meshing properly.

[mooza]

Originally Posted by hvkumar

I have broken 15 leaf springs..Poor propeller shafts - have changed them twice

@HVK, curious to know, what were the symptoms of the helper leaf spring failures in your case ? Did the ride become bumpy ? Or was it detected at the ASC by visual checks alone, without pulling apart the spring pack ? And did the leafs fail at the centre or near the U bolts ?

Would be grateful if you could on similar lines explain the symptoms / onset of the prop shaft problems in your case

[hvkumar]

Originally Posted by mooza

@HVK, curious to know, what were the symptoms of the helper leaf spring failures in your case ? Did the ride become bumpy ? Or was it detected at the ASC by visual checks alone, without pulling apart the spring pack ? And did the leafs fail at the centre or near the U bolts ?

Would be grateful if you could on similar lines explain the symptoms / onset of the prop shaft problems in your case

Ride becomes bumpy and you can feel the imbalance in the side where the leaf spring is broken. In almost all cases, the leaf springs broke near the centre. I also have got into the habit of doing visual checks every Sunday regardless of how the ride quality is.

Prop Shaft - ASCs do not have a drill of greasing the shafts; they argue that it is not required instead! Apart from the flange issue - which results in the clanging noise when you move off in first gear, etc - I also have the U-Joint creak whenever I go up and down the garage ramp (also other times, but you rarely hear it when you are driving because of the other noises). When the prop shaft bearings fail, the overall vibration (and in worse cases, the rhythmic noise) becomes very prominent. I have been very unlucky with prop shafts. The first occasion, I changed only the UJs, but after that the entire shaft itself twice! One of the most expensive components in the Scorpio, costs almost 9K!

[mooza]

^^@HVK, thanks a lot for promptly sharing the important symptoms of the failures !

@Hammer & Anvil, I was surprised to see so many problems on your coil spring version Scorpio.

I hope your new M Hawk gives you a happy ownership experience

[shankar.balan]

THANKS! Im mostly alone in my vehicle. Else it is just me and my wife.
So far, going by the FE being returned, 32 PSI seems to work fine for us.
Im amazed to see the cost of maintenance worked out to just Rs 1.86/- per KM!!
It shows that the Scorp is really good value for money when used over the medium to long term!!
Thanks for that insight!

[quote=hvkumar;2259344]shankar.balan, tyre pressure is something one has to customise to one's driving conditions and tyre brand. I normally drive alone or with 1 other person in teh car most of teh time. With BS tyres, I used to get excellent results - soft ride and good FE - even at 29 psi, but with the Yokos, 32 psi is more appropriate. I have been trying different tyre pressures with my new set of Yokos tyres and found 30 psi a disaster (FE <10), but am currently riding on 31 psi (to consistently get 10.5 kmpl +).

[Hammer & Anvil]

Picasa Web Albums - Kamlesh Desai - Scorpio Images


Picasa Web Albums - Kamlesh Desai

I should include these somewhere....


To answer a few questions- firstly I have completed about 26000 on the second sOCRPIO, The mHawk:

1. Average- significantly better: City: 10.5, Hwy: 13.5, therefore increased hwy touring range.
2. Resonance at 80Kmph- very tiring- very annoying
3. Some humming sound from the tires, bearings, engine: wonder whats coming apart.
4. Though on paper a 'more HP, more torque' vehicle: it drives like Honda did the tuning... very car like- someone removed the grunt from the engine.
5. I really dont know which people work in the design dept? Just check the cross bar under the drivers seat that prevents one from getting additional 3-4" of leg spare to stretch.
5a. Same people designed the 2 second cut out on the hybrid switch off, complete waste of M&Ms money. Sack the idiot who put this in.
6. Zero spares
7. Zero repairs
8. I hate the resonance that goes thru the entire chassis and body. Dang!

More when I get time. Nothing nicer to say but. Average, range and reliability. Everything else I am starting to hate.


KD

[TaureanBull]

I am surprised that inspite of so many complaints you still chose your second vehicle as Scorpio.

You seem to have some terrible experience with Scorpio and you are really scaring me. I am planning to buy Scorpio AT 4x2 in next few months.