[the_skyliner]

Originally Posted by Arjun Reddy

Time to bring this thread to a close.

Got delivery of the C250d on the 19th. Thanks all for your valuable inputs.
Attachment 1599386

Congratulations!

Looking forward to a detail review.

Could you please share (over PM) the details of deal you got?

[MileCruncher]

I have owned different kinds of automobiles in my ownership span of last 15 years. But one common factor has been that each vehicle has been extremely fun to drive and have been slightly different.

In 2015 I sold off my pickup truck Scorpio Getaway as I moved to the perpetual gridlock city of Bengaluru. However very soon I realised that one needs a car for the occasional rainy day. So I ended up buying the Octavia vRS Mk1 in 2016 which I'm using today. Details here http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/sedans...ml#post4294731

I moved to Mumbai last year and the Octy is being used quite extensively. While its a beauty to drive, I have been feeling the need to get a newer car. However having realised that one starts feeling the need for change after about 4 yrs and the way new cars loose money on sale, I have decided to stick to Pre-Worshipped cars.

The cars am looking at in 12-15 Lakh range and 3-4Yr heritage are:

1. C200 CGI 2013/2014
2. 320i

Somehow I'm very keen to consider the 2013/14 C with CGI engine. One reason for keeping with petrols is because my running is 1000-1200/month, petrols depreciate rapidly and hence better deals in the market and lastly cheaper to fix / maintain.



Would be keen to hear from fellow petrolheads on their thoughts. Reason for keeping A4 out of the list is due to its FWD.


P.S: - I really like the Jaguar XE both in shape and the performance stats but somehow not keen to burn so much money on depreciation.

[jumanji]

Hi All, This would be my first attempt to get in to this segment. My priorities are:

• Ride quality (on rough patches)
• NVH (road noise as well as engine noise)
• Rearbench comfort (for occassional long drives, say 4-7 hrs. I generally do about 1 trip per 1.0-1.5 months)
• Smoothness of the engine
• Rear camera a must

My budget is around 40L. I always buy my cars new so second-hand ones are out of equation. I generally avoid diesels given their higher carcinogenic emissions but I am assuming the ones in this segment would have better technologies and hence at the moment I am open to diesel. So far I have driven GLA, X1, 320d, A3 and A4 and I am oscillating between 320d and A4.

What I noticed in the Benz showroom was that almost all of them have their brake pedal quite high for my liking and it was almost impossible to keep up such an acute angle for my right heel even for a short test drive. Another downer was the claustrophobic rear seats, which are not helped by the wide and high front seats (at least that's what i felt). Even with the sunroof sheet pulled back it didn't help much. Most likely might not get another look unless i extend by bugdet and take a look at higher end models in Merc.

I test drove A3 but am not too keen due to the cramped rear seat. 320d looked great while driving but only until i drove A4. Here are my observations for both of them:

A4:

Pros
- Butter smooth engine, good punch even at low end
- Awesome insulation from the outside world
- Nice ride comfort
- No messy tire in the boot
- Easy ingress/egress for rear seat

Cons
- Upright rear seat (not sure if 4-7 hrs will be fine, but a couple of hrs should be no problem at all)
- Not as visually appealing as 320d
- The test drive vehicle had a raised brake pedal, similar to Mercs, but A3 was very fine. The SA says other A4s in the showroom seem to be much better and is trying to figure out if the pedal of test drive vehicle can be adjusted.

320d

Pros:
- External Styling/Appeal, better road presence
- Rear seat has better angle

Cons:
- Very harsh ride, particularly at slow speeds on rough patches (not pits, mind you)
- Engine noise as well as road noise, didn't feel premium
- Tyre in the boot!
- Tricky ingress/egress for rear seat

After driving A4 i felt 320d was way too noisy and very harsh. I am going to do another test drive of A4 tomorrow to go thru those rough patches again and see if I still feel that much of a difference between it and 320d. The 320d is always talked about being the driver's car but I felt more at home with A4 while 320d sounded noisy when I pushed the accelerator. Am i missing something?? or doing something wrong?? I test drove X1 as well today, along with 320d, but it was very harsh for my liking.

I haven't driven Q3 but I am open to it.

Given the price range, I am looking forward to our forum members here who have extensively driven these models and thus can speak from much wider/longer experience than my test drives. Your inputs will be much appreciated.

(Mods: I found most threads in this section to be quite old and may not reflect on the latest models' capability, but please feel free to move it to the best location)

Thanks,
Jumaji

[mijnoirhammer67]

Originally Posted by jumanji

The test drive vehicle had a raised brake pedal, similar to Mercs, but A3 was very fine. The SA says other A4s in the showroom seem to be much better and is trying to figure out if the pedal of test drive vehicle can be adjusted.

First thing first, before you finalize on the car you choose, dont believe what the SA said. Make sure you look at another A4. Never believe a salesman. Its not as if they are dishonest or crooks, but never believe one. Check things for yourself. If you found the braking position high, then try driving another A4 and see for yourself. Since you look pretty much certain on the Audi A4.

But the current gen A6 is having great discounts, try hammering them and negotiate a price suiting you. I guess you could get one under 50 lakhs OTR, depending what extra taxes come in Chennai. Also i read somewhere Merc had some of the older gen E-class still left. Though this was in december so see if its still available and strikes your fancy.

If you choose the baby SUV's, you simply cant go wrong with the X1. X1 beats the competition, though i have a strong liking for the GLA 220d 4matic. But X1 has to be the best. Q3 is the oldest and very plain. Wouldnt recommend.

If the current gen X3 appeals to you, it is very old but you can definitely get the X3 under 50 lakhs as well. Since its going to be replaced in a couple months, heavy discounts on this one. Though the age shows.

Why dont you look at the 3GT? thats a pretty sorted ride. Might be a bit above the 40 lakh mark but a very good car.

If the fight is between the 3, C and A4; then id choose the C class. It is the best all rounder.
The 3 with the 330i engine is a gem to drive. A4, i never took a shine to Audis so dont know.
But C class for all round performance and 3 series for the drive. As far as the brake position is concerned, 2 days tops and youd not feel uncomfortable anymore. But your call
The jaguar XE is pretty good but back seat is a real let down. Volvo S60, if it aint the polestar then i dont want it

But the best option if and only if you can extend your budget, the Volvo XC60. It comes around 60+ OTR. But man, this is one heck of a car. Anyone who approaches me for a car purchase, i always mention the XC60.

As far as your priorities are concerned, all the above mentioned cars should be able to deal with it. Ride quality and rear seat not withstanding. But you can personally check these two out. All these cars now have a camera, very smooth lasting engines and are fairly insulated.

Cars in preference
1) A6
2) C class and X1
3) 3GT and X3

The SA will try selling the A4 over the A6 since its a newer car, he/she will act as if they cant get you a good deal but tell them you want the A6 and only that, and if they cant get you a good deal youll look elsewhere.

Hope this helps

[Aroy]

Even I would recommend A6 over A4, as with discounts the OTR will be near each other. Another good buy is the E 200, especially if there is steep discount.

[lamborghini]

Originally Posted by jumanji

Hi All, This would be my first attempt to get in to this segment. My priorities are:

• Ride quality (on rough patches)
• NVH (road noise as well as engine noise)
• Rearbench comfort (for occassional long drives, say 4-7 hrs. I generally do about 1 trip per 1.0-1.5 months)
• Smoothness of the engine
• Rear camera a must

Thanks,
Jumaji

I'm just going to add to some excellent input from other members given my experience with some of these cars and brands.
My first query is: How long do you plan to keep the car? If less than 5 years, all of these will suffice given their warranty, if more than 5 years - I'd urge you to consider a BMW.

Going brand wise:

1) Volvo: nothing exciting in your budget.

2) Jaguar: The XE is a brilliant option but more cramped than the others

3) Mercedes: Only the CLA, GLA, and C Class seem to meet your requirements in terms of budget.
The CLA & GLA are just too cramped, whereas the C Class is prone to rattles, has an uncomfortable suspension, lots of underbody noise makes it's way through, and the rear bench isn't the most comfortable.
That being said, the interiors are fantastic, the engine is fairly refined (though low on power), and the car looks and feels like a million bucks. Paint quality is the best as well! I enjoy driving this - but it's a more sedate driving experience, enjoying the way the steering feels.
Also - I find it a little under equipped with no memory seats, no premium sound system, etc. and the car windows get foggy very easily.

4) BMW: X1, 330i, 3GT, X3

The X1 is nice, but the most cramped out of all the options. When I sat in it - it felt a little hemmed in the rear seat. It is bigger than the Q3, but I'd prefer the X3 over this given your requirements.
The X3 is spacious, rides well, and fairly well equipped. Decent performance as well. However interiors are outdated and there's no two ways about it. That being said - given the pricing after discounts makes it a very tempting buy given the practicality, space, comfort, etc. on offer is a big step up from the X1.

The 330i is nice! I think it rides better than the C Class, rattles less, and the engine is simply amazing (though not refined). They have some great deals on offer - though given your requirements - the 3GT would be my pick.
The 3GT offers great legroom, rear seats that recline, a punchy engine, and better seating than the C Class and 3 series.
Personally, I love the ride quality of the GT - it's just perfect: not too soft, not too stiff.
Would definitely be in my shortlist.

Just a thought - our 2012 pre-owned 328i with 18" tubeless tyres rides better and rattles lesser than our 2016 C220d on 17" RFTs. It doesn't make you feel like a million bucks, but you'll be grinning silly when the tail slides out

Audi: The Q3, A4, and A6.
A3 is not really worth it given you can get a much better car in your budget. The new A4 I haven't driven so cannot comment much on it - from what I've seen, I love the interiors and the car is really well priced after discounts.
The Q3 is cramped, a little boring, and a little too old for my liking - especially with the new X1 in the running.
The A6 - which is priced at around 45L ex-showroom after discounts would be one that could be perfect for your needs. It's refined, it's quiet, the air suspension is a boon, its fully loaded, and very spacious.
However, that being said - service quality in Mumbai is strictly average if not below average, reliability is iffy (air suspension, ABS sensors, AC are some problem areas), and the rear seat is a little on the lower side for taller and elderly passengers, and the steering has no feel.
Yes - the interiors are a little dated, but still a very nice place to be in - especially if you're comparing it to one of the BMWs (X1, 3, 3GT, X3).
My first comment after driving the A6 was on how it just cocoons you from the outside world! Have a look at our review of our 2011 A6 for an idea on how the car behaves and our ownership experience.

My shortlist given your requirements & priorities:

1) A6 (worth the stretch but best to keep for 5 years and then sell)
2) BMW X3
3) BMW 3GT

[the_skyliner]

Originally Posted by jumanji

Hi All, This would be my first attempt to get in to this segment. My priorities are:

• Ride quality (on rough patches)
• NVH (road noise as well as engine noise)
• Rearbench comfort (for occassional long drives, say 4-7 hrs. I generally do about 1 trip per 1.0-1.5 months)
• Smoothness of the engine
• Rear camera a must

I was in similar situation few months ago and was inclined towards A4 due to the gadgetry and overall interiors feel and quality. C lacks features like, navigation and also I found the rear seat to be lacking in under under thigh support compared to A4 and 320d.

However, do have a look at 3GT in petrol avatar. Rear seats are amazing and leg room too is way more than A4/320d.

However, I would recommend A4 if you have liked it but do confirm about the brake paddle thing as SA can not be trusted in such matters. Also, I find it hard to believe that the brake paddle position in TD car will be different than that in the new ones.

That virtual cockpit in A4 is amazing. Do get the technology trim as I find the lower trim not to appealing at that price.

[imp!]

From the cars you have short listed, I would consider the A4 if i absolutely couldn't find another car I like with the space I'd want. In all honesty, you'd be better off in an Octavia VRS than in an A4. I just don't find the Audi badge justifies the price diffrence. You could consider the A6 but then you'd be pushing your budget to around 50-55

My personal preference would be for the BMW 330i or the Jaguar XE, but the Jag is cramped and the BMW maybe too low for you (since you rate comfort as one of your primary requirements)

The Volvo S60 may seem like a good option, but other than the Polestar it just doesn't offer the oompf or wow factor. It is however a great car and for the right type of owner, it can be very rewarding. It's also primarily offers only Diesel Options.

Having said all of this, I would highly recommend that you consider the VW Passat(diesel only), Skoda Superb or Kodiaq (Again Only Diesel IIRC). They may not offer snob value, but they are all extremely competent and comfortable highway munchers. They may be overpriced, but if rear seat is a consideration none of the others cut it.

TLDR:

In Order of Preference:

1) BMW 330i
2) Skoda Superb Petrol
3) VW Passat / Skoda Kodiaq Diesel

If you can stretch:

Consider the Mercedes GLC, BMW X3 (its being changed soon though) and the LR Disco Sport, Audi A6. All are a decent stretch/re-thinking of budget.

[jumanji]

Originally Posted by mijnoirhammer67

If you found the braking position high, then try driving another A4 and see for yourself. Since you look pretty much certain on the Audi A4.

But the current gen A6 is having great discounts, try hammering them and negotiate a price suiting you.

If the current gen X3 appeals to you, it is very old but you can definitely get the X3 under 50 lakhs as well. Since its going to be replaced in a couple months, heavy discounts on this one. Though the age shows.

Why dont you look at the 3GT? thats a pretty sorted ride. Might be a bit above the 40 lakh mark but a very good car.

Thank you mijnoirhammer67 for your detailed inputs. No test drive vehicle available in 3 series apart from 320d (hence couldn't check 330i as well). Will anyway have a word with SA about 3GT.

I did consider your point on A6 and will be test driving it tomorrow, but the OTR of 50+ is something i will have to weigh in after the test drive. I am looking to buy without any loan, hence the jump from 40+ to 50+ might not be as easy...still let me see if A6 tempts me enough to go for the jump

Originally Posted by lamborghini

How long do you plan to keep the car?

Just a thought - our 2012 pre-owned 328i with 18" tubeless tyres rides better and rattles lesser than our 2016 C220d on 17" RFTs. It doesn't make you feel like a million bucks, but you'll be grinning silly when the tail slides out

The A6 - reliability is iffy (air suspension, ABS sensors, AC are some problem areas), and the rear seat is a little on the lower side for taller and elderly passengers, and the steering has no feel.

My first comment after driving the A6 was on how it just cocoons you from the outside world! Have a look at our review of our 2011 A6 for an idea on how the car behaves and our ownership experience.

Thanks Lamborghini. I think in about 4 yrs time i will get the itch to change (no matter which car i pick up) although one option is to then hand it over to better half and get another one for myself. (PS: She doesn't like spending on cars at all, and all she needs & wants is 'any car that takes one from A to B'). So the car could potentially be with us for 4-6 yrs time.

What you are saying about A6 'cocooning from outside world' is what is pulling me towards A4 too. I felt A4 was significantly better in that aspect. Let me see how A6 feels.

Any A6 owners here who can comment on reliability of A6? any major issues faced etc.?

I did test drive C220d today and it felt better than 320d in terms of NVH but not as good as A4. More importantly I felt it to be not as responsive as A4 in acceleration. I tried Sports mode but it didn't make much difference, it only made the engine noisier. May be it's just that car and not the case with all C220d's. The rear seat though felt very inadequate even for me (and I am just 5'6"!). Half of my thigh was outside the seat, though there was good thigh support for the portion that was on the seat. The exterior looks of C class are though quite awesome and that's something still not shutting the door entirely on C class. I need to figure out if I can bite the bullet on rear seat (or bench!) inadequacies.

When i drove A4 an hour later it blew me off again with butter smooth acceleration and superb comfort even on the patches where the 320d felt jarring. In terms of ride comfort on bad patches, I felt C class was somewhere between 320d and A4 (but importanly closer to A4)

Originally Posted by the_skyliner

However, do have a look at 3GT in petrol avatar. Rear seats are amazing and leg room too is way more than A4/320d.

However, I would recommend A4 if you have liked it but do confirm about the brake paddle thing as SA can not be trusted in such matters. Also, I find it hard to believe that the brake paddle position in TD car will be different than that in the new ones.

That virtual cockpit in A4 is amazing. Do get the technology trim as I find the lower trim not to appealing at that price.

Thanks The_skyliner. I did a repeat of A4 test drive today and the pedal though unchanged looked somewhat manageable. The SA also mentioned that his technical folks said nothing can be done about it and it's the same in all cars. Hopefully with regular usage the pedal becomes more supple at least?

Originally Posted by imp!

In all honesty, you'd be better off in an Octavia VRS than in an A4. I just don't find the Audi badge justifies the price diffrence.

.... and the BMW maybe too low for you...

Having said all of this, I would highly recommend that you consider the VW Passat(diesel only), Skoda Superb or Kodiaq (Again Only Diesel IIRC). They may not offer snob value, but they are all extremely competent and comfortable highway munchers.
If you can stretch:

Consider the Mercedes GLC, BMW X3 (its being changed soon though) and the LR Disco Sport, Audi A6. All are a decent stretch/re-thinking of budget.

Thanks imp! To be honest I am mainly going for snob value and hence the skoda/vw options are not as appealing for my current use case. (I currently drive City 2014 V MT and I have absolutely no issues whatsoever and I am very very satisfied with it as such.) Also the Q200 DSG stories played part too in elimination.

X3 never crossed my mind earlier. Will give it a thought now.

I will take a look at GLC in the coming week, if it is coming close to 50L OTR.


In general, how is the latest gen of A4 in terms of quality? is it relatively trouble-free? Please comment. I would be ok with the regular servicing costs being at higher end as long as the car itself doesn't need to visit except for the yearly maintenance. By the way my usage will be max 6-8K kms per year.

[lamborghini]

Surprised you felt that way with the 3 series ride quality - what variant did you try and what was the tyre pressure?

Regarding the C: On gravel roads I found the underbody noise to be very poor compared to others in the segment. I'm quite surprised with the comments on the C Class ride quality as everyone who's sat in my car (2016 C220D) is just disappointed with it especially in the city!

The A6 should be quite niggle free. We have one - 2011 A6 2.0D CBU which has been quite bad. The first 5 years were fine in terms of maintenance costs as it was covered by extended warranty. Parts that went wrong (off the top of my head) included the air suspension (twice), rear sunblind motor (rare), rear door child lock (rare), and the AC (should be fixed now). The air suspension aside, the car should be quite niggle free by now, though it's still too early to say that for the A4 - though the basics should be sorted.
The bigger issue you'll face is to do with part availability and service quality - pls speak to existing Audi owners in your city to know how their experience has been.

Also please have a look at the 3 series GT. It's a very well packaged product!

[jumanji]

Originally Posted by lamborghini

Surprised you felt that way with the 3 series ride quality - what variant did you try and what was the tyre pressure?

... The A6 should be quite niggle free.

... Also please have a look at the 3 series GT. It's a very well packaged product!

@lamborghini - Thanks for pointing out about the tyre pressure. I checked with them and it did turn out that they keep 50psi (while recommended is 37-40psi !!). Today i did a retest with about 40psi and the ride on rough patches was marginally better. Unfortunately the engine noise and road noise was still audible - what a fly in the ointment!

A 3GT was also around my location and I took it for a short drive too (no high speeds). The acceleration was a bit better than 320d (or may be it was just my imagination!) and it comes with a few bells and whistles. Refinement-wise it was at par with 320d.

I took a test drive of A6 today. The car looks massive and has all the good things i found in A4 (refinement, smooth but superb acceleration etc.). Rear seats get better recline than A4 but are positioned lower as well. So, both + and - on that. The SA was talking about bringing it to 56L OTR but I told him that my budget is max 50L for that segment.

What is the real life mileage one gets for A4 diesel? I saw an Autoportal review doing a Shimla trip returning between 17 - 21 kmpl. That looks impresseive for this segment. I know A4 is relatively new, but is this version quite niggle free?

Planning to visit the showrooms this weekend and finalize the car. At the moment it looks A4 with its nose ahead but stranger things have happened with me when it comes to buying vehicles so you never know. Will keep you all posted.

Forgot to mentin, the SA is quoting 43L OTR for A4 35 TDI for a silver model that they have in stock. If they have to order a different color from Production they say they will not be able to offer these discounts. But I have hinted at 40L OTR at my max appetite. Their list price if 51.5L OTR by the way. Any comments on what would be a good deal? Any help from forum members in getting a good deal with Chennai Audi is also most welcome!! Please let me know.

[lamborghini]

Personally I feel 37-40 PSI is too high for Indian conditions. Reduce it marginally (32-34PSI) and do a test again.

However it seems your heart is set on the A4 - the TDi is a reliable and brilliant engine, and one that can be very frugal as well. Interiors are fantastic as well! I personally really like it as well (though as an enthusiastic driver I prefer the BMW), but would advice you to check with friends and family who own an Audi for their service experience. The poor service in Mumbai is one thing that will probably keep us away from another Audi vehicle in the near future.

[imp!]

Originally Posted by jumanji

Unfortunately the engine noise and road noise was still audible - what a fly in the ointment!

A 3GT was also around my location and I took it for a short drive too (no high speeds). The acceleration was a bit better than 320d (or may be it was just my imagination!) and it comes with a few bells and whistles. Refinement-wise it was at par with 320d.

I took a test drive of A6 today. The car looks massive and has all the good things i found in A4 (refinement, smooth but superb acceleration etc.). Rear seats get better recline than A4 but are positioned lower as well. So, both + and - on that. The SA was talking about bringing it to 56L OTR but I told him that my budget is max 50L for that segment.



Planning to visit the showrooms this weekend and finalize the car. At the moment it looks A4 with its nose ahead but stranger things have happened with me when it comes to buying vehicles so you never know. Will keep you all posted.

Forgot to mentin, the SA is quoting 43L OTR for A4 35 TDI for a silver model that they have in stock. If they have to order a different color from Production they say they will not be able to offer these discounts. But I have hinted at 40L OTR at my max appetite. Their list price if 51.5L OTR by the way. Any comments on what would be a good deal? Any help from forum members in getting a good deal with Chennai Audi is also most welcome!! Please let me know.

Okay, so it looks like Audi is your cup of tea. I'm surprised that the bimmer road noise is an issue. During my drives of the 3 series, it's never bothered me. If the 330i is out of question entirely then here is my take on the Audis in question:

1) A4, makes sense as its much newer than the A6 and you won't get almost a generation old interior at the end of its life cycle

2) I'd buy the A6 primarily because it would be more comfortable for occupants over long distance drives and if you are chauffeured a decent amount of time, you will enjoy it more.

All depends on what floats your boat. As far as the A6 is concerned, if you are serious about buying it, the exec will work with you to make it happen. The new one is being launched later this year (or is it Q1 next year?) and anything off their shelves is a relief for them. Good luck with your decision!

[jumanji]

A quick update on this. Audi folks suggested to take a look at 1.4TFSI which they have in stock and can delivery immediately. I will be taking a test drive tomorrow. Any short/long term feedback on this petrol version from our members? A4 2.0 TDI will be delivered around mar 1st or 2nd week. At the moment they are quoting 48L for TDI and 44 for TFSI for Premium Plus model, though some more discount sounds likely. I am not too keen on virtual cockpit so giving the Technology pack variant a miss. Can our members comment if the deal is good/fair?

I recently took test drives of Volvo S60 cross and Jaguar XE.

S60 cross' dashboard & the noisy engine were deal breakers and I didn't even complete my test drive. The SA told that the S60 sedan's engine will not be as loud, but I simply couldn't stand the dashboard either (No offense to its owners here - it's just a matter of personal taste.)

Jaguar XE Diesel looked better in most terms - NVH, Refinement, Power etc. The MMI screen though looks a bit dated when compared to the famous 3 German rivals. Ride was more supple than 3 series. XE seems to be a fuel guzzler, going by SA's numbers (7-8km/pl in city!). The biggest negative for me was the stiffness of the accelerator pedal. Not sure if that is just the issue with this vehicle or a general pattern on XEs. I have asked him to check with his technical folks. Can XE owners please comment on real time fuel efficiency and on the accelerator pedal? I am not too stingy on km/lit but would like to avoid fuel guzzlers.

Responses from forum members would be greatly appreciated!

[dmv]

jumanji, did you finalize your purchase ?

I'm looking to get a car from this segment as well. Test drove the A4, C200 and the X1 recently. I'll try out the 320D shortly. Budget is about 40L, so not looking at the next segment up.

Current preference is for the A4, followed by X1 and then the C. I must say most of the info here is spot-on regarding the ride/drive/comfort and the different USPs of each car. My kids still love our City's back seat the most though

A4 35 TDI Premium Plus: 43L
C220d style: 43.75L direct purchase and 42L with company lease. C200 EditionC is ~47L
X1 expedition: 37.5L, X1 xline 43L

I'd like to hear folks' opinion on the pricing I am being offered here in Bangalore.
Any Bangalore BHPians who can comment on the Audi/BMW/Merc quality of service and post-purchase experience in general ?

Thanks !