[Aroy]

Originally Posted by PY1963

Regarding BMW flat tyres, the sales man told me that car can run with flat tyres about 200 Kms. However I am not sure how successful these tyres are for Indian road conditions ? Can these flat tyres be repaired by any garage or car will have to be taken to BMW authorised service centre only ?

Yes they will run for 200km, and then you have to throw them away. You are down by approximately 20K+! Plus they are reputed to last less than normal tube less.

The reason run flats are promoted is safety. Run flats will not blow up at high speed, so you do not crash. You can run on them, at a reduced speed, to escape from life threatening situations, not possible with other tyres. That said they are fine for city drives, but a real pain if you drive beyond 50km of the tyre depot. Some of our forum members have successfully changed the run flats to normal tubeless. The boot space constraint (to keep a spare) is less in a 5 series but critical in a 3 series.

If I am not wrong the Mercedes come with a steel (space saver?) spare.

[PY1963]

Originally Posted by 1-Testosterone

Have you considered Jaguar?

Yes, I did look at it but it will be about 11 Lac extra in cost so dropped it. Thanks

Originally Posted by Aroy

Yes they will run for 200km, and then you have to throw them away. You are down by approximately 20K+! Plus they are reputed to last less than normal tube less.

The reason run flats are promoted is safety. Run flats will not blow up at high speed, so you do not crash. You can run on them, at a reduced speed, to escape from life threatening situations, not possible with other tyres. That said they are fine for city drives, but a real pain if you drive beyond 50km of the tyre depot. Some of our forum members have successfully changed the run flats to normal tubeless. The boot space constraint (to keep a spare) is less in a 5 series but critical in a 3 series.

If I am not wrong the Mercedes come with a steel (space saver?) spare.

Dear Aroy,

Yes, Merc gives a spare. In BMW, are you saying flat tyre is not repairable at all ? What if it gets punctured on a highway, can I not get it repaired ?
Thanks

[blackfire_9]

Originally Posted by S350L-E240

Blackfire_9,

No offence but some corrections to your post to ensure the buyer does not get confused.

None taken mate, & I am glad you have pointed out certain things

The 525d is not the 520d in upgraded form rather it's the 530d in a down graded form and use the same engine block with a lower tune and the 525 has a few less features and none of them are important.

Thanks for the correction mate.

2. Don't you think the BMW has a lot mature interior? as I felt the Mercedes now has a very aggressive bold interior with all flat surfaces and angle'd interior setup?

Well, I some how felt that the Mercedes felt more plush & mature against the young feel of the BMW. But it could be the other way round as well, as in your case, for some body else.

5. Staff is very subjective as both brands will have some who are very good at their job's and some who just work there because they need to? Infact in Ahmedabad BMW has only one person who is good with knowledge about cars, but Mercedes here has 2-3 very matured sales guys and has one of the best sales managers in this country.

You are correct, I shouldn't have said this point as a generalization.

Just my points, like I said am not trying to judge your judgement only pointing some facts which I deem were correct.

Regards,

Hey mate, my replies in bold above.

Drive safe.

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by PY1963

Dear Aroy,

Yes, Merc gives a spare. In BMW, are you saying flat tyre is not repairable at all ? What if it gets punctured on a highway, can I not get it repaired ?
Thanks

I have no personal experience with run flats. This is what most International discussions state - run flats have to be repaired immediately if you want to use them for full life. Otherwise if you run them for some distance (> 10km), the sidewall is ruined. You still have a range of 200km because of thick inner lining which would support the weight of the vehicle, but the tyre is ruined beyond repair.

Here is some useful information Advantages and Disadvantages of Installing Run Flat Tyres

Regarding repairs, you have to carry a repair kit and a tyre pump, additional botheration as there is no spare to switch.

[akj53]

I selected the Jaguar XF over E Class and 5 Series in U.K., last year. You can read my review of Jaguar on

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ip-report.html. And

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/travel...jaguar-xf.html

After reading all the advice! I suggest that you take a test drive of all the cars and then decide yourself. Everybody has his own likings and disliking and his own priorities, so you will be the best judge.

[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by PY1963

Yes, I did look at it but it will be about 11 Lac extra in cost so dropped it. Thanks

That cant be right. The ex showroom of the Jag XF diesel is 2l more than the 530d.

[Cartman]

The Volvo is a highly potent machine. No doubt about that. But for me, it does not have the flair and the flamboyance of the other three. Volvo scores high on comfort and safety. The major drawback is the after sales support. The network is quite scanty as of now. My advice would be to stay away considering you're putting in that much money.


Cheers!
Cartman.

[PY1963]

Originally Posted by S350L-E240

Hello,

Firstly, welcome to the forum and while your post is in the wrong section I will try answer as close as possible.

You see the question you have asked is quite complicated in the sense both are in their own ways equally good cars and now both have over lapped their previous generations positives and eaten into each other's market share, also every answer here will perhaps be a lot different so ultimately you will have to make your choice based on your judgement and test drives.

Coming to the cars, well I have the 530d and I come from a Mercedes loving family, but something about the new F10 could not be resisted and I have driven both the cars quite well so here's my points.

BMW 5 (F10)
Positives

1. I think it looks a lot more dynamic and more fluid and timeless in terms of design. But design is the hardest point to argue so I would say to each his own.
2. Drives like anything else on the road in it's class.
3. The engine and transmission are very very agile and responsive. (I know I have the 530d but even the 520d was quite nice when I test drove esp considering you will be driven around a lot too)

Negatives

1. On bad roads the run flats do kind of make it harsh and there is no space at the back for a space saver either.
2. The seat belts on the passenger seat rattle a lot if it is empty on rough roads, while these cars were not made for rough roads driving in India and with a few bumps gets me a little irritated.
3. I have at times at certain intersections felt the visibility of the car while trying to take a turn is a little less and sometimes annoying.
4. Ergonomics, sorry but Mercedes is miles ahead in this department.

For the E
Positives

1. Ergonomics and ease of use.
2. Rides a lot better than the 5.
3. Has taken handling to a new level for a Mercedes sedan.

Negatives

1. I think it looks quite good from some angle's but at some it is hard to consider it as a Mercedes
2. Transmission esp the 7G tronic has a lot of reliability issues, and is not as agile as the 8 Speed in the BMW.
3. A litte more expensive over the 5 with similar equipments.

Do post your decision soon both ways both are excellent cars,

Regards,

Thank a lot for such detailed useful tips.
I agree with you & others on this forum that both cars are excellent however so far, i found negatives against BMW are run flat tyre with no spare & high maintenance cost, but it has definitely better brand appeal than Merc. Yes, selecting out of two is difficult choice to make. I will wait for some more expert members's suggestion before deciding one finally.
Regards

Originally Posted by .anshuman

520d- Good VFM with decent performance but you would like to consider the 525d just for the inline 6 cylinder motor.

525d- At a price slightly above 520d, the 525d is the best VFM car in 5-Series lineup sold here. It gets the same 6 Cyl Inline 6 and 8 speed ZF Transmission as the 530d. Even the equipment levels are told to be same(Not sure).

530d- Comes at a higher price than the above mentioned variants but this none of the variants above can match the FTD factor of this car. One of the best Diesel Engine mated to one of the best Transmission = 530d. But remember this car is not as sharp to drive as the previous version, the biggest disappointment is the Steering.

E 250 CDI- Sadly it gets a 4 Cylinder Diesel mated to an average 5-Speed gearbox. Best left to be driven in.

E 350 CDI- Has a 6 Cylinder Diesel mated to 7G tronic gearbox. Much better to drive compared to the 250 CDI. Has the trademark Merc Ride and Silent cabin.

Jaguar XF-S- If you find the Mercs and Bimmers too common you may like to consider the Jag. The 6 Cylinder engine produces best in class 600nm+ torque and it comes mated to a 6 speed ZF transmission. Performance is very good but the softly tuned suspension ensures it's not quite an handler compared to 5 and E. Space at rear is tight and sloping roofline is not good for six footer. Read the complete drive report about this car by me here (Jaguar XFS (Diesel) Test Drive *UPDATE* Another drive Report added on Pg.3).

If i had to decide i would pick either 525d or 530d depending on the budget.

Dear Anshuman,
My budget is about 45 Lacs on road, so Jaguar, 530d & E350 are all probably out of range.
If I go for 520d, it has 4 cylinder engine & so also E250. How much is real difference in ride quality due to 8 speed transmission in BMW vs 5 speed in Merc, especially some views on forum here that Merc ride quality now is better than BMW ?
Regards

Originally Posted by Aroy

Yes they will run for 200km, and then you have to throw them away. You are down by approximately 20K+! Plus they are reputed to last less than normal tube less.

The reason run flats are promoted is safety. Run flats will not blow up at high speed, so you do not crash. You can run on them, at a reduced speed, to escape from life threatening situations, not possible with other tyres. That said they are fine for city drives, but a real pain if you drive beyond 50km of the tyre depot. Some of our forum members have successfully changed the run flats to normal tubeless. The boot space constraint (to keep a spare) is less in a 5 series but critical in a 3 series.

If I am not wrong the Mercedes come with a steel (space saver?) spare.

Dear Ajoy,

I am also told that if one changes run flat tyre to tubeless tyre, some of electronic indicatiors will not work correctly as thet all are tunned to run flat tyre. Is it correct ?
Also any impact on warantee if I do change these tyres ?

Regards

Originally Posted by akshay1234

That cant be right. The ex showroom of the Jag XF diesel is 2l more than the 530d.

You are right, but I have been comparing it with 520d or 525d, which are 11 lac & 8 lac cheaper than Jaguar.
Regards

[akj53]

If you are looking to buy in the price bracket of 40 L then you have to select between the 4 models of E class and 5 Series, shortlisted by you.

S350L-E240 and Anshuman have already listed the + and - of both the brands. Such big cars ideally deserve a six cylinder motor. So E250 CDI that too with a 5 speed box will make a poor choice. 520 D is the biggest selling BMW in U.K., despite being a 4 cylinder car. it has a good 8 speed auto which being a ZF unit should be superior and more reliable than the Mercedes box. It also has the latest fuel efficient technologies and the optional advantage of the 5 year maintenance package. It has the disadvantage of runflats which should be changed to regular tyres at the time of purchase only. I was told that run flats becomes unusable after running punctured, so a puncture will ultimately cost you Rs. 20,000.

You will have to decide whether you can live with Poor ergonomics and visibility of 5 as mentioned by S350L. 525D indeed provides better driving pleasure but if you are going to be driven most of the time, then not of much use.

[.anshuman]

Originally Posted by PY1963

Dear Anshuman,
My budget is about 45 Lacs on road, so Jaguar, 530d & E350 are all probably out of range.
If I go for 520d, it has 4 cylinder engine & so also E250. How much is real difference in ride quality due to 8 speed transmission in BMW vs 5 speed in Merc, especially some views on forum here that Merc ride quality now is better than BMW ?
Regards

How about stretching the budget a bit and going in for 525d? I am not sure which transmission the 520d comes with? If it's the same 8 speed ZF as the 525d then it's much superior than the Merc 250 CDI's 5 Speeder.

Talking about Ride quality the Merc is more comfortable but the 5 is not too far. Maybe getting rid of those run flats may bring it even closer. You won't find the 5 stiff unless you drive it back to back with the E.

Also consider the fantastic all inclusive maintenance package offers from BMW. Remember to negotiate as hard as you can, a very good discount can be easily negotiated.

[S350L-E240]

PY1963,

I might be able to solve some doubts you have in short to avoid confusing you further,

1. The BMW will be cheaper to maintain as BMW India offers 3 / 4/ 5 year all inclusive maintainance plans and I have been through the horror that Mercedes-India dealers sometimes create when it comes to cost of service and esp. when electronics go bad. But ofcourse at a lot of occasions they have done if for free under good will warranty. But that I think is a grey matter and not something one can fully depend on.

2. Lot of confusions about RFT's you have which I will try make it simple for you. See RFT's are an issue but on the new 5 BMW has tuned it a lot to go well with RFT's so the ride is a lot better now compared to the previous cars, also a point to note is if you do swap the RFT's with normal tyres there is no place in the boot for a space saver and I find the boot quite tiny already so have you thought on those lines?

More about repairs, well on highways there are very very few or pretty much close to nil places where you can repair the tyres and also the distance BMW India talks about you covering on RTF's is also at only a particular speed which is quite less to cover such a big gap, so until and unless RFT's become a wider accepted technology in India with a lt of places to get it repaired I think it's one of the biggest dis advantages of a BMW and I know some people in my distant family who have choosen E / S's because of this. But over looking this one thing I think everything else the 5 totally outsmarts the E and which is why I choose the 5.

3. Stick to the 520d as you will be driven in and the car has enough grunt for your one time pleasure rides, and you will save some money over the 525d but hardly miss on any features and esp. consider the 520d when you decide between the E250 CDI v/s 520d, reason being the transmission, the E250 CDI for now runs on a very old school transmission and will at some point be upgraded to 7G tronic, but I am not sure when will the upgrade happen as I was once told it will be mid 2011 but do not quote me on this as it was a casual conversation with someone from Mercedes.

The 520d has the 8 speed which you asked about if it effects the ride quality, well for one it sure will be a lot smoother in terms of power delivery and also a little fuel efficent (not that it matters but still).

And no electronics will not malfunction or show you errors if you change to normal tyres, but I would recommend you don't change just try live with RFT's which is what I am doing for now and trust me every day my car drives on about 800 meters of a patch which is as good as mild off roading!!


You know what? Just get a (your choice of colour) 520d!

Regards,

[PY1963]

Originally Posted by S350L-E240

PY1963,

I might be able to solve some doubts you have in short to avoid confusing you further,

1. The BMW will be cheaper to maintain as BMW India offers 3 / 4/ 5 year all inclusive maintainance plans and I have been through the horror that Mercedes-India dealers sometimes create when it comes to cost of service and esp. when electronics go bad. But ofcourse at a lot of occasions they have done if for free under good will warranty. But that I think is a grey matter and not something one can fully depend on.

2. Lot of confusions about RFT's you have which I will try make it simple for you. See RFT's are an issue but on the new 5 BMW has tuned it a lot to go well with RFT's so the ride is a lot better now compared to the previous cars, also a point to note is if you do swap the RFT's with normal tyres there is no place in the boot for a space saver and I find the boot quite tiny already so have you thought on those lines?

More about repairs, well on highways there are very very few or pretty much close to nil places where you can repair the tyres and also the distance BMW India talks about you covering on RTF's is also at only a particular speed which is quite less to cover such a big gap, so until and unless RFT's become a wider accepted technology in India with a lt of places to get it repaired I think it's one of the biggest dis advantages of a BMW and I know some people in my distant family who have choosen E / S's because of this. But over looking this one thing I think everything else the 5 totally outsmarts the E and which is why I choose the 5.

3. Stick to the 520d as you will be driven in and the car has enough grunt for your one time pleasure rides, and you will save some money over the 525d but hardly miss on any features and esp. consider the 520d when you decide between the E250 CDI v/s 520d, reason being the transmission, the E250 CDI for now runs on a very old school transmission and will at some point be upgraded to 7G tronic, but I am not sure when will the upgrade happen as I was once told it will be mid 2011 but do not quote me on this as it was a casual conversation with someone from Mercedes.

The 520d has the 8 speed which you asked about if it effects the ride quality, well for one it sure will be a lot smoother in terms of power delivery and also a little fuel efficent (not that it matters but still).

And no electronics will not malfunction or show you errors if you change to normal tyres, but I would recommend you don't change just try live with RFT's which is what I am doing for now and trust me every day my car drives on about 800 meters of a patch which is as good as mild off roading!!


You know what? Just get a (your choice of colour) 520d!

Regards,

Dear Mr S350L-E240,

Really appreciate your detailed reply clarifying many doubts. I am now becoming more & more in favour of 520d, except two doubts -
1. How easy it is to repair the RFT ourselves & use pressure pump, if driving on highway (Delhi to Jaipur) & tyre gets punctured ?
2. Should we blow money on extra maintenance package or take risk of going without it & see what maintenance cost actually comes by ?

Regards

[S350L-E240]

Hello,

Glad you plan to go the BMW way, here's your final answers,

1. I do not think you can repair RFT on your own. But keeping a pump with you might help as you can keep filling the air until you get to a BMW or a similar place where you can repair it.

2. You have 2 years until which you can decide if you want that package and you can buy it accordingly at that time.

Regards,

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by S350L-E240

1. I do not think you can repair RFT on your own. But keeping a pump with you might help as you can keep filling the air until you get to a BMW or a similar place where you can repair it.

I would advise all those who travel long distance to have a pump anyway, especially if you have tubeless tyres. On normal punctures, you can run at least 50km on each filling, provided the nail (it is mostly nail in my case!) is pulled out. For that you will need a pair of pliers.

Is there space of a full size tyre in the boot of a 3 series, even if it takes all the space? Then one may carry a spare on long journeys (just a thought)

[khoj]

Originally Posted by noopster

525d. Not that I've driven a Bimmer of Merc in my life (yet) but there is something about the 5 that excites in a way the E doesn't.

Like someone said 'Driving a Merc is like kissing your wife. Driving a BMW is like kissing your girlfriend behind the wife 's back'