[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by frankmehta

Also, most ECUs can now be tuned via OBD. Earlier, it meant removing the ECU and soldering some components on it which was unfavourable with some.

Are most ECUs tune able by obd? As far as I know most ECUs after 2012 need to be opened up the first time, at least. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

[rakesh_r]

Originally Posted by mobike008

What do you recommend for a Ford Aspire? RD box or a re-map?

Well, I wont go much into the technicalities since I am yet to either remap or use a tuning box in my car or bike. I believe in a remap, the blokes at Ford might come to know that you have tinkered with the mapping if they hook up their computer to the Bombardier. The warranty might go for a toss?
With a tuning box, since its a plug and play i believe it doesn't leave back any footprint, please correct me if i am wrong.
With reference to Dr Naren's ownership thread,I am quite tempted to remap my SCross but the thought of risking the warranty going for a toss is what that is holding me behind, especially since the ECU needs to be opened up.

[frankmehta]

Originally Posted by Akshay1234

Are most ECUs tune able by obd? As far as I know most ECUs after 2012 need to be opened up the first time, at least. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

With the limited experience I have with my polo and other vag cars, at least, it's a peach to install
My polo took 3 minutes to remap

[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by frankmehta

With the limited experience I have with my polo and other vag cars, at least, it's a peach to install
My polo took 3 minutes to remap

What about guys like tune o tronics, and petes, and even international tuners? All ask for the ecu to be sent to them, and they open it up to get a read. Surely they cannot be mistaken?

Which map have you used which does it through obd?

[Dr.Naren]

Originally Posted by mobike008

My question is to folks here who have used both tuning boxes and re-maps to know if remaps are better than tuning boxes? If yes, why?

Tuning box is more practical option than remap for cars under warranty. Most of the tuners would say remap is not detectable. Yes, it won't be detected during routine diagnostic scan. But if the service guys suspect a remap, they can easily find it out. All they need to do is to connect their diagnostic equipment and do one WOT run with logging all values. Compare the IQ, rail pressure, turbo boost values with stock reading mentioned in workshop manual, voila remap detected and warranty void!!

What do you recommend for a Ford Aspire? RD box or a re-map?

I believe RD has dual channel box for Aspire. It should be pretty good. Regarding remap, I have heard that there is some protocol issue for Figo/Aspire ECU. Bhuvan has mentioned the same on his Figo ownership thread. So let's wait and watch .

Originally Posted by Akshay1234

What about guys like tune o tronics, and petes, and even international tuners? All ask for the ecu to be sent to them, and they open it up to get a read. Surely they cannot be mistaken?

There are different types of ECU like Bosch EDC15, EDC16, EDC17; Marelli, Delphi, Continental etc etc. And also there are many tool manufacturers who help to break the protocol and help the tuners to read and write on ECU. Most of the modern ECU's come with infineon tricore micro processor with TPROT >11. Few of them could be tuned via OBD and few should be opened and flashed on bench. Tuners have nothing to do with OBD/bench flash. It's upto the "tool manufacturers" to develop OBD protocol.

Which map have you used which does it through obd?

For Polo 1.2 TSI, it's OBD flash. All the tuners use OBD protocol. But for 1.5/1.6 TDI, ECU needs to be opened once to "unlock" and from then it can be done via OBD.

Originally Posted by rakesh_r

With reference to Dr Naren's ownership thread,I am quite tempted to remap my SCross but the thought of risking the warranty going for a toss is what that is holding me behind, especially since the ECU needs to be opened up.

If you are concerned about warranty, I would suggest you to go for dual channel RD box. They have it for 1.6 S-Cross. If you have good rapport with service centre guys, they wouldn't bother about remap. Only if there is some major warranty claims, Maruti engineers do come from plant to inspect. My plan is to revert back to stock map before proceeding to any major warranty claims.

Originally Posted by frankmehta

A tuning box of this sort comes with circuitry to 'fool' your ECU into increasing fueling or boost pressure (in a dual channel box, or just fuel pressure in a single channel box) without really checking the other parameters. A remap takes EVERYTHING into account before extracting more or less power from the engine.

Yes, a tuning box fools the ECU to give more power. And people say with remap everything is good, more control etc. Remember a bad remap is dangerous than tuning box. Do you know that even with a remap, you can fool ECU?? I have seen many tuners using this method for our 1.3 Multijet engine. All they do is change one map : "injector duration". This is one of the easiest way to remap and you are fooling the ECU here. You will understand it better when you know the Parameters and axis in injector duration map. To explain in a simple way, suppose 70 mg fuel is injected in 1 ms, now you change it to 2 ms..So you would be actually injecting double fuel, but the ECU thinks you have injected only 70 mg. This is one of the reason why people say more FE post remap.

Safety aspect : Tuning box vs Remaps : This could be debated for ever without a conclusion. Tuning box guys can say we don't lift the safety limiters like how tuners do. Tuners would say we don't fool ECU and have better control.

Personally I would say that if a remap is done right, it should be better than a tuning box.

[mobike008]

Thanks for the lovely and detailed feedback guys

I agree that Remap vs. Tuning box is a never ending debate. I have personally always liked the tuning box as we are not participating in drag races or race on track and only interested in improved performance to enjoy the car more on normal roads

It is still not clear if i decide to go for a remap for the Aspire, will they need to open by the engine internals for first time for a remap or its a simple enough job that it is not concerning?

Easiest is to get the dual channel RD box

Originally Posted by frankmehta

Not much, now.19k gets you a remap (it was 15k for christmas) whereas a dual channel tuning box costs 26k.Who said? You can go back to your stock file if your ECU can be flashed via OBD!
What do you recommend for a Ford Aspire? RD box or a re-map?

REMAP REMAP REMAP!

Woah! Was not aware that a remap has become this cheap?....I was still under the impression it costs 30K +

Any good remap or tuning specialists that you know in Hyderabad that you can point me to?

Originally Posted by rakesh_r

Well, I wont go much into the technicalities since I am yet to either remap or use a tuning box in my car or bike. I believe in a remap, the blokes at Ford might come to know that you have tinkered with the mapping if they hook up their computer to the Bombardier. The warranty might go for a toss?
With a tuning box, since its a plug and play i believe it doesn't leave back any footprint, please correct me if i am wrong.
With reference to Dr Naren's ownership thread,I am quite tempted to remap my SCross but the thought of risking the warranty going for a toss is what that is holding me behind, especially since the ECU needs to be opened up.

I'm not really concerned about the warranty going for a toss as I dont think you need a warranty cover for a car that has crossed 23K kms and more than 1 year as there is nothing that will fail that will covered under a warranty ( That's just my personal belief)

Besides, my association with ASC is pretty good so these are somethings I can handle

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

I believe RD has dual channel box for Aspire. It should be pretty good. Regarding remap, I have heard that there is some protocol issue for Figo/Aspire ECU. Bhuvan has mentioned the same on his Figo ownership thread. So let's wait and watch

Oh! That's not good news. I haven't been following that thread. Bhuvan is having problems in his Remapped Figo?

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

There are different types of ECU like Bosch EDC15, EDC16, EDC17; Marelli, Delphi, Continental etc etc. And also there are many tool manufacturers who help to break the protocol and help the tuners to read and write on ECU. Most of the modern ECU's come with infineon tricore micro processor with TPROT >11. Few of them could be tuned via OBD and few should be opened and flashed on bench. Tuners have nothing to do with OBD/bench flash. It's upto the "tool manufacturers" to develop OBD protocol.

I heard of a 4-channel tuning box that is available these days? Is it available from Race dynamics?

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

Yes, a tuning box fools the ECU to give more power. And people say with remap everything is good, more control etc. Remember a bad remap is dangerous than tuning box. Do you know that even with a remap, you can fool ECU?? I have seen many tuners using this method for our 1.3 Multijet engine. All they do is change one map : "injector duration". This is one of the easiest way to remap and you are fooling the ECU here. You will understand it better when you know the Parameters and axis in injector duration map. To explain in a simple way, suppose 70 mg fuel is injected in 1 ms, now you change it to 2 ms..So you would be actually injecting double fuel, but the ECU thinks you have injected only 70 mg. This is one of the reason why people say more FE post remap.

Excellent information Dr.Naren. Are you a doctor of car modifications or human beings? LOL!

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

Personally I would say that if a remap is done right, it should be better than a tuning box.

What is your recommendation for Aspire?

[Dr.Naren]

Originally Posted by mobike008

It is still not clear if i decide to go for a remap for the Aspire, will they need to open by the engine internals for first time for a remap or its a simple enough job that it is not concerning?

A tuner is supposed to do his homework well before remap. But most of the tuners are concerned about ECU ( the brain) and not the engine ( the heart). A good tuner would study about engine components and also dig out details like how much more stress would the components handle.

Woah! Was not aware that a remap has become this cheap?....I was still under the impression it costs 30K +

There are many tuners in India now. Most of them buy slave tools and get remaps from their tuner abroad who have master tool. You wouldn't believe that most of these guys abroad sell the files for just 50 Euros.

Pete's offer remap for 19K. This month, it was 14,250Rs( Christmas offer). Due to many tuners and stiff competition, remap rates have gone down.

Any good remap or tuning specialists that you know in Hyderabad that you can point me to?

Please contact Vivek, Tune O Tronics. He travels all over India. TOT support is excellent. He came to Mangalore thrice for my S-Cross. Finally, I got a very good remap.

Oh! That's not good news. I haven't been following that thread. Bhuvan is having problems in his Remapped Figo?

No, he is not having any issues. I mean his car is not remapped yet. Ford has increased TPROT( Tuning Protection) level to 12 in Figo/Aspire. So this ECU is yet to be cracked. Akshay from GT Tunerz Delhi has got an adapter for that particular ECU from UK. Let's hope it works out.

I heard of a 4-channel tuning box that is available these days? Is it available from Race dynamics?

No 4 channel box from RD.

They have
1. RD lite : It's a single channel box without switchable modes
2. RD single channel box with remote control
3. RD dual channel box

Are you a doctor of car modifications?

I wish

What is your recommendation for Aspire?

I would suggest you to wait and watch. Let's see if remap works out on Bhuvan's Figo .

[car_crazy1400]

Performance Upgrade needed

Guys,
I have Maruti Vitara Brezza zdi, bought on last day of March 2016.

Has done about 12.5k kms. Now even though its fine for its regular city commute. I feel the turbo lag is too much pronounced and even on the highway its not a smooth sailing and I have to downshift to overtake. My dad took it to Manali and was fed up with the constant downshifting.*

No its not slow by any means but I feel that it has a flat spot just around 1500-2200 rpm & even my Swift diesel feels faster with the turbo spool up. Also, my other cars include a Toyota Fortuner, Innova, Altis petrol & a Mercedes GL 350. Maybe that's also a reason it feels so.

Now, I am looking for a performance Upgrade, either by a tuning box or a Remap. And I do tend to keep my cars for a fairly long time, say 5-6 years 1.25L + kms).
I have enquired for both a RD dieseltronic box (dual channel, as suggested) is for about 26k.*
A Pete's remap is 19k and promises an increase in BHP numbers to 110 bhp, up from the current 89-90 bhp.

Any pointers / suggestions would really help. Also, keep in mind that I am located in Delhi /Noida.

Thanks*

Rishi

[d3mon]

The latest issue from Autocar has a report on their long term S-cross 1.6 with a dual channel Dieseltronic box.

According to their subjective comments, the turbo lag went up (Unclear if it's perceived or real) along with the punch after 2000 RPM. The 0-100 time dropped 1.6 seconds to duck just under the 10 second mark.

[Dr.Naren]

Originally Posted by d3mon

The latest issue from Autocar has a report on their long term S-cross 1.6 with a dual channel Dieseltronic box.

According to their subjective comments, the turbo lag went up (Unclear if it's perceived or real) along with the punch after 2000 RPM. The 0-100 time dropped 1.6 seconds to duck just under the 10 second mark.

I had read about this in Autocar September 2016 issue. They had not posted a detailed review then. It's good that they timed 0-100 . With TOT remap, I am 2.3 seconds quicker vs 1.6 seconds with RD box .

[frankmehta]

TTS Auto has a Tornado 4 channel box. But we need to check if all 4 channels in the Ford can be used.
Let me text the technical guy and see if I can get a response.

[AliAbdullah]

I have recently order the lite version of the single channel Dtronic box from race dynamics for my swift 1.3DDiS engine. I did consider a remap from TOT but still any remap will cost more than 9999rs for which i ordered the box and since i live in lucknow, i dont have the time to specially visit delhi to get the remap done. I will try to provide as accurate acceleration results on stock ecu and the Dtronic Ecu after around 500km. I am being positive and hoping for around 1.5 to 2 second difference in out right acceleration. I will get the delivery on or before 6th jan, will update after installing on swift.

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

I had read about this in Autocar September 2016 issue. They had not posted a detailed review then. It's good that they timed 0-100 . With TOT remap, I am 2.3 seconds quicker vs 1.6 seconds with RD box.

Well i guess the difference of 1.6 second for RD and 2.3 second for Remap also comes down to the engines. the grand i10 1.1 litre diesel comes stock with 160nm torque whereas the S-cross 1.6 DDiS had 320 nm of torque. so you see that with just 500 cc difference, Scross manages twice the torque than the i10 on stock ECU. that means its already running a pretty big turbocharger, with high boost and a relatively aggressive stock tune than the stock tune of the i10. Not to forget the 1.6 S-cross is a pretty quick car (0 to 100 in 11.5) as stock whereas the i10 diesel in its stock form takes well over 20 second to reach 100 There arent many horses left to free in the ecu than the i10, so we cant compare the difference in gains in acceleration between these two cars.

[Dr.Naren]

Originally Posted by AliAbdullah

grand i10 1.1 litre diesel comes stock with 160nm torque whereas the S-cross 1.6 DDiS had 320

Who is talking about Grand I10?

I guess you have read few of my threads and got confused. d3mon had mentioned about 1.6 seconds gain for S-Cross 1.6 with RD dual channel box. I have 1.6 S-Cross running with TOT remap. I am 2.3 seconds quicker to 100 now compared to 1.6 seconds with RD box.

P.S : Details about my adventure with various tuners in brief

Grand I10 : Code 6 remap, RD single channel box, TOT remap ( present)

SX4 : Pete's remap, Wolf remap, TOT remap ( present)

S-Cross : TOT remap

P.P.S : Since you have mentioned about 20 seconds 0-100 timing for Grand I10, I guess you have got this information from Autocar magazine which is totally false. We have done V Box runs on both stock and remap.

Cheers!!

[AliAbdullah]

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

Who is talking about Grand I10?

I guess you have read few of my threads and got confused. d3mon had mentioned about 1.6 seconds gain for S-Cross 1.6 with RD dual channel box. I have 1.6 S-Cross running with TOT remap. I am 2.3 seconds quicker to 100 now compared to 1.6 seconds with RD box.

P.S : Details about my adventure with various tuners in brief

Grand I10 : Code 6 remap, RD single channel box, TOT remap ( present)

SX4 : Pete's remap, Wolf remap, TOT remap ( present)

S-Cross : TOT remap

P.P.S : Since you have mentioned about 20 seconds 0-100 timing for Grand I10, I guess you have got this information from Autocar magazine which is totally false. We have done V Box runs on both stock and remap.

Cheers!!

I totally got confused between Grand i10 and S-ccoss in that case remap makes sense. Be it autocar or vBox, I have driven alone a brand new grand i10 Crdi as stock, it ran out of steam at just above 80 kmph. as far as the competition goes, its just a slow car.

[AliAbdullah]

Finally the day, when I paid 10,249rs (Rs 9999 + Rs 250) and accepted the delivery of DieselTronic Lite at my home. The most expensive upgrade to the car till now. RaceDynamic did package the courier well and everything was in order. The Stickers and vinyl really looked good and have been applied first. and then there is the wiring harness and the diesel tronic lite box itself. the harness consists of a split end over one end, which has two connectors(Male and female Type). On the other end of the harness is the port to connect the Diesel Tronic Box and then a single wire for power which goes only in the positive terminal of the battery.

I remember in the last post i said that i will try my best to get a performance and acceleration figure on the stock map but, I was so restless and impatient that within half an hour of taking the delivery, i had put all the stickers in place and was installing the tuning box itself. Since it had only one wire for power and it went only in the positive terminal of the battery, my mechanical mind got a bit confused by it, and I had to call racedynamics technical support to clarify the problem. The person said that the wire was correct and only need attached to the positive termicalof the battery without any negative.

Other than that the installation is pretty simple, For my swift diesel, i removed the engine cover and the harness provided is called Type B harness. I removed the wire doing into the common rail and attached it to the female end of the harness, and attached the male end of the harness into the common rail from where the original port was removed. I attached the tuning box on the other end of the harness, and connected the wire to the positive terminal of the battery. Tied everything down but only four tie were provided in the package which were actually small than necessary. i used some other tie which i had and tied down all the other wires, put the engine cover back and i was good to go.

turned on the ignition and the red light on the box started to glow, meaning everything is set. the green light started blinking thrice, which by the instruction manual meant that the box was on P1 mode relative to the single or dual channel box. Of-course i couldn't change the driving mode in this lite box. started the engine and on the first start engine was a bit louder than usual, i expected these changes so i let the engine run for around 10 minutes on idle. after that, it was time to test. the installation took not more than 15 minutes as i did it for the first time. now i can do it within 5. i also took extra 10 minutes just to make sure everything was in order

Moved out of my apartment and started driving in a relaxed manner when i felt the first difference. Engine was running smoother than the stock. drove for around 1 - 2 km to a quite and traffic-free road and made the first pull. There was absolutely no difference at all in the power delivery in either second of third gear. It got me a bit worried for sure as even with a discount of 4000, this was pretty expensive for me and i had high hopes and all sort of emotions started going on in me that this might be a bad decision and then i remembered the amazon 7-day return police, so i guess i was sorted if it didn't work out haha. Took a u turn and accelerated, short shifted into second, and immediately short shifted into third at just 1400 rpm and depressed the accelerator, the car suddenly woke up at 1800 rpm(it had never done than before) and started pulling inconsistently and then dropped at around 2000 rpm or i guess flat-lined and then it woke up at 2200 rpm and pushed me in the seat all the way till 3500 rpm, and then there was the grin on my face, the grin on which i just cant put a price on. There was bump in torque but it wasnt as much as i hoped, i would say by what i felt it was around 7 to 10 percent and not 20 percent as advertised, but yet all the clauses of amazon return policy had vanished till now from my mind, and i made pulls one after the other. The power delivery was still inconsistent between 1700 to 2100 rpm and by inconsistent i mean that engine didn't fell very happy delivering power. But even in this rev range and even inconsistently, the power was more than stock and engine woke up at 2100 rpm. this happened for the next 4 pulls in third gear and then reduced a lot in the fifth and by the time i had driven another 5 km, the power became linear. Torque has increased considerably between 1700 to 2000 rpm and that has increased drivability. And then comes the infamous turbo kick of multijet engine at 2100 rpm which kicks you down in the seat, just more pronounced and raw than before. and its because of the bump in torque in low revs that the power delivery now seems linear than before.

This was just the first drive the first 7 km on diesel tronic. Maybe i was expecting a bit too much as a miracle that will bump the power to 200 bhp and 300 nm torque but even realistically the bump in power, as of now, is not more than 7 to 10 percent. and even after 10 pulls, the car seems to deliver different amount of power in each pull. From my knowledge i believe that the Tuning box will somehow understand and adapt to my driving style, and will be a even better bump in power to at least what advertised to be 20 percent. and the power delivery is also expected to me more linear and consistent with each kilometer i cover with the box. I will also replace the air filter with a new one and see if i can source liqui moly additive to run with the tuning box. I apologize of not collecting and benchmark performance numbers of acceleration but i am just too impatient for it. even with what it is as of now, i am glad i got it for 9999rs only at a discount of 4000rs. the power bump is very much welcome and expected to increase and to my surprise the engine is a lot smoother and quieter.

I will provide the next update after at least driving 500 km in both city and highway conditions, its just a matter of time before i cover them now