[zaphod]

will a free flow void my warranty??

sadly , yes - and i have the 1+2 years extended warranty - I might wait till my car reaches the 25k mark and then put in one.

though putting in a replacement air filter and strut braces shouldn't void the warranty - AFAIK the strut braces can be removed quite easily in case you have to go to a MASS to get work done under warranty.

Mr Raj Kapoor of Performance Auto is good but I've heard he's on the expensive side.

zaphod

[hkanitkar]

hi guys
planning to get free flow for my zen - 96 model - but i am facing some problems though :
- automech website - not working - IE/FireFox shows NO SITE FOUND
- if anyone knows dealer in pune- please lemme know the contact no.

@speedsatya - how much did it cost you for the whole system ?

[moralfibre]

The site is http://www.automechexhausts.com/ and working. I just checked it.

[Boom Shiva]

Originally Posted by moralfibre

The site is http://www.automechexhausts.com/ and working. I just checked it.

No it's not. I just checked

[turbo_c]

I have been thinking of putting in a free flow system in my 2001 MPFI Esteem for some time now...

Since I will get a (mild?) increase in power output + a shift of the power band towards higher rpm, would I get an increase in top speed too? (The MPFI Esteem is geared pretty tall and she hits her top speed way before she hits her redline)... not that it would be all that useful cuz at 175Kmph, stability ain't so good anyway... still a few notches higher on the speedo could be a huge ego booster while I inch past some of the "faster" rides

Anybody out there with one of these fitted on an MPFI Esteem? Some power curves for comparsion would be nice too!

- T u r b o C -

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by turbo_c

I have been thinking of putting in a free flow system in my 2001 MPFI Esteem for some time now...

Since I will get a (mild?) increase in power output + a shift of the power band towards higher rpm,

A header+freeflow+cat-delete will make a huge difference everywhere.

[ananthkamath]

Originally Posted by turbo_c

Since I will get a (mild?) increase in power output + a shift of the power band towards higher rpm, would I get an increase in top speed too? (The MPFI Esteem is geared pretty tall and she hits her top speed way before she hits her redline)...
- T u r b o C -

You need to change your final drive ratio. Final drive in MPFI Esteem is 3.52..You need to change the following parts: -

1) Esteem countershaft to replaced with countershaft PN 24131-60B41 (18T)

2) Esteem final drive to be replaced with final drive gear PN 27511-60B01 (79T)

3) Esteem speedometer driven gear to be replaced with speedometer gear PN 23131 - 64B00 (16T)

With this you will get a final drive ratio of 4.388:1 which is the one used in the old Esteem/1000...The stock MPFI doesnt rev beyond 5000 RPM in 4th and 4000 RPM in 5th...by doing this mod alone you will rev higher in the higher gears, thus increasing your top speed, and also get more acceleration in the lower gears...

If you want even more acceleration AND top speed use 165/65R13 (Indica V2 OE fitment) tyres.

Only after doing this you should go for headers and freeflow because you will lose some low-end torque, but it will be compensated by final drive...If you don't want to invest in a full header, just change the 2 into 1 downpipe...you need to lengthen it by some and use a larger diameter pipe for it to have a effect in the usable rev-range...keep the cat and go for a straight-through glasspack muffler...I can't give you specifics for this mod because I have not tried it on an Esteem.

Ananth Kamath

[turbo_c]

Originally Posted by anantkamath

You need to change your final drive ratio.

Thanks Anant...

Lowering (or increasing?confused with the terminology!) the final drive from 3.52 to 4.3 may let the engine rev higher in the higher gears and get me a slightly higher speed in 5th, but overall, won't it bring down the max speed in every other gear? Basically, I would end up reducing the amount of "overdrive", right? Also, making the engine spin more to go the same distance does not sound good for FE.

Upsizing the overall diameter of the tyres would counter the effect of changing the final drive from 3.52 to 4.3... sounds like a zero sum game! Also, I'm not sure, but I think that size of tyres will srape the insides of the wheel well going over a bump or negotiating a sharp turn.

This is my only car for now and I would like it to be a "fast everyday car" rather than a "super fast race day car" If I can get a higher top speed as a "side-effect" of making the engine breathe better (and sound better!) it would be welcome, but I would probably not get into opening up the gearbox and replacing parts to achive that... not on my current car at least... still, thanx for the (really detailed) info!

I assumed that the engine's max torque as around 4k rpm and it tapered off after that, so my theory was that since the power band would "shift" higher, it would mean that I would have more torque at higher rpm ... and since there was more torque available, it might be able to nudge the rpm higher than the 4k it does now in 5th... and that would transalate to a marginally higher top speed... all this assuming there is no "gear-sensitive" rev limiting done by the ECU. (I dont think there is any such thing in the Esteem at least!).

Now that I think about it, since my power band would shift higher, how would that effect the low speed drivability (stop & go traffic)? The Esteem is anyway not very torquey at low rpm. I want that free flow system... but don't wanna make the car hard to drive in Pune and Mumbai traffic!

- T u r b o C -

[Mpower]

You are asking for 2 much buddy. Like AK mentioned, shorter final drive will give you much better 0-100 times and also inc the top speed simply because the Esteem is geared too tall. (there are tons of M1000 parts lying in gujris, so sourcing one should't be a problem)

As a consequence, engine rpm for a given speed will be higher and hence impact FE on hwy. In the city, you can upshift much sooner without revving and that will help maintain your FE.

A header tuned specifically for top end will impact mid-range driveability but not by a lot. Intake and cams have a much larger effect.

The only option left is increasing the compression which will give you both power and FE. But, you are going to be restricted strictly to Speed 93.

Other than engine, try to lose weight by using FRP panels. But by far the biggest effect on top speed is to aero, so try to lower Cd. There are many ways to do this, but you might want to talk to one of the Chennai based tuners who prepare Esteems for the one make racing series.

[ananthkamath]

Top speeds in each gear assuming 175/70 tyres and a 4.388 ratio will be: -
1st - 47 km/h@6800
2nd- 85 km/h@6800
3rd- 125 km/h@6800
4th- 155 km/h@6000
5th- 181 km/h@5800

If you have 165/65, which is NOT an upsize (overall tyre dia is less than stock) the speeds will be slightly lesser upto 3rd but slightly higher in 4th and 5th.

Compare this to stock (as per Autocar test on 155/80)
1st - 59 km/h@6800
2nd- 106 km/h@6800
3rd- 157 km/h@6800
4th- 165 km/h@5100
5th- 151 km/h@3870

This means two things: -

1) In the city, the lower ratio (4.388) will help you stay closer to peak torque in every gear, leading to less gear changes (as MPower said), and higher fuel economy to the tune of 2-3 km/l.
This is advantageous because you want a "fast everyday car", which I interpret as "good driveability".

2) On the highway, the lower ratio (4.388) will let you accelerate quicker in every gear and will let you achieve top speed on much shorter stretches of road.
This is advantageous because you want a higher "achieveable" top speed rather than a "academic" top speed. If you have this ratio you will reach 180 faster than the stock one can touch 165.

A header will give you maybe a 200 rpm increase in fifth, which corresponds to 8 km/h.

I already said that in order to retain driveability, it is better to change the ratio first (because it is grossly over-geared) and then go for headers or other engine mods.

About your apprehensions regarding the gearbox: This swap can be done by a Authorized Service Center in a single day using OE Maruti parts. So it may not void warranty (not sure, though) and anyway, its hard for even the Maruti guys to notice it from the outside.

So make a decision on whether to try it or not and let us know about your experience. All the above info is a result of my own work on this car, and so is true to the best of my knowledge.

Ananth

[turbo_c]

Originally Posted by mpower

But by far the biggest effect on top speed is to aero, so try to lower Cd.

I think you've hit the nail right on the head... I learned the importance of aerodynamics the hard way... dueled with a NHC on the Mumbai Pune expressway once (77Bhp ?), was able to keep up (in fact, was actually able to gain on him!) as long as I stayed close behind, but as soon as I would pull aside to overtake, it was as if I had opened up a parachute behind my car ! (Tried 5 times before giving up !)

Too tall gear ratios may have also played a part.

Originally Posted by anantkamath

1) In the city, the lower ratio (4.388) will help you stay closer to peak torque in every gear, leading to less gear changes (as MPower said), and higher fuel economy to the tune of 2-3 km/l.
This is advantageous because you want a "fast everyday car", which I interpret as "good driveability".

Originally Posted by anantkamath

I already said that in order to retain driveability, it is better to change the ratio first (because it is grossly over-geared) and then go for headers or other engine mods.

About your apprehensions regarding the gearbox: This swap can be done by a Authorized Service Center in a single day using OE Maruti parts. So it may not void warranty (not sure, though) and anyway, its hard for even the Maruti guys to notice it from the outside.

Well, this car will on the highways 75% of the time, still good driveability would go a long way in keeping away frustration in the city jams.

I'm way out of the warrany on my car, so that's not an issue...

I guess Maruti did the inevitable trade off on top speed to get a better FE, huh? Still, can't ignore FE these days, esp. with fuel prices always heading north :(

Originally Posted by anantkamath

All the above info is a result of my own work on this car, and so is true to the best of my knowledge.

That's gr8 news, now I know who to bug for Esteem stuff !

You won't by any chance have an Esteem service manual lying around somewhere, would you?

Final verdict: I think I will start with Alloy Rims and a (badly needed) new set of tyres, then a trim kit with side skirts etc. to improve the aerodynamics; after that I would go in for a complete exhaust system (headers + muted sport muffler)... If drivability suffers too much because of the power band shift, I will consider the gearbox mods (final ratio swap), otherwise I will stay with the higher highway FE (since most of my driving is on the highway) and live with a top speed just shy of 170 in 5th. My Esteem just about kisses the 175Kmph mark in the current (100% stock) form in 4th, I guess the upgraded exhaust + aero kit will take her to about 185? Not bad considering that past 150, handling is pretty much a hit and miss kind of affair anyway!

- T u r b o C -

[speed0mania]

hey guys can a free flow be made such that it gives better lower end torque rather than kill it also while not killing fe !if not improving it !! but wouldnt like compromising on torque for fe!!
and where can i get a good one in delhi??

[dadudeonfire]

autopsyche dude...check out his website....and i want to ask alll the people who have free flow installed.that...can it ever increase your fe...i dont want to hear that...with the sound and feel you tend to rev alot and all that stuff....just want to know that if i drive the way i usually do while checking my fe...will i get to see an improvement in fe...i have a corsa sail 1.4

[Mpower]

If 75% of your driving is on hwy then dont get too worked up about drivability. Go for a header thats tuned for top end and you will surely improve top speed.

[GTO]

and i want to ask alll the people who have free flow installed.that...can it ever increase your fe...i dont want to hear that...with the sound and feel you tend to rev alot and all that stuff....just want to know that if i drive the way i usually do while checking my fe...

Technically, a well engineering free-flow exhaust will improve the breathing characteristics of your engine. Therefore - YES! A free flow exhaust will improve the FE of your engine under the same driving conditions.

GTO