[AJ56]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

I think this market has reached silly-price stage. Completely daft sum of money.

The free market will only pay where it feels utility exceeds the price being charged, and it’s apparent quite a few people are willing to pay for higher quality work which costs more, just like cars.

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

I disagree. three to four thousand is what I have paid at both VW A-S-S and high-class independent.

It’s downright blasphemous comparing poor to mediocre quality high volume authorised dealer (VW or otherwise) paint and bodywork pricing to high end paint shops that specialise in the field. It’s like comparing a KFC to a Michelin star restaurant, both will serve you food but that’s where the similarities end. Over here you’ll pay 12-14k per panel but the result will be near perfect.

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Interesting. But compare it to audiophile pricing where, not that many years ago, TOTL was $500. Then came the thousand-dollar 'phone; the $2k 'phone, and now the four to five thousand USD headphone is not so unusual.

What changed? The technology got ten times better? Not at all. The market changed. And the marketing. And "High quality" can be as much about marketing as it is about fact.

Again will disagree, be it cars or headphones or paintwork. An S class is double an E’s price but it isn’t twice as nice or better than the E but no one will doubt for a second it’s clearly superior. An E is not twice as nice as a a Camry but it is better and so on. There are diminishing returns per extra dollar spent

Side note: even 20 years ago a proper audiophile B&O system like BeoLab90 for eg. ran into tens of lakhs and it’s the same today, if anything it might even be cheaper in inflation adjusted terms.
I’m not even going into the super high end offerings which run over a million dollars from these companies.

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

The ceramic finish is about keeping the car looking as absolutely good as possible, every day, for as long as possible.

Not at all, protection is just part of the deal with a ceramic coating, over half of what you pay is for the restoration and hundreds of hours spent sanding and polishing the paint to perfection before a coating can be applied for protection. See here, this is just after paint correction before coating on a 10 year old F10 5 series, entire job took 3.5 days or 112 man hours to complete.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by AJ56

It’s downright blasphemous comparing poor to mediocre quality high volume authorised dealer (VW or otherwise) paint and bodywork pricing to high end paint shops that specialise in the field. It’s like comparing a KFC to a Michelin star restaurant, both will serve you food but that’s where the similarities end. Over here you’ll pay 12-14k per panel but the result will be near perfect.

I think you like things to be expensive.

All my VW A-S-S repair and paintwork has been really top notch. And the independent I go to works on some classy cars, but price is the same.

Feel free to pay more. That is the free market creating examples such as the headphone thing.

Side note: even 20 years ago a proper audiophile B&O system like BeoLab90 for eg. ran into tens of lakhs and it’s the same today, if anything it might even be cheaper in inflation adjusted terms.

I'm more than a bit familiar with the cost of hifi over the past fifty years. An B&O wasn't proper hifi: it was proper design.

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

I think you like things to be expensive.

All my VW A-S-S repair and paintwork has been really top notch. And the independent I go to works on some classy cars, but price is the same.

Feel free to pay more. That is the free market creating examples such as the headphone thing.

Valid point, if you’re happy with the job they do by all means don’t pay more. In my experiences as a detailer and with Honda (as a customer), across different dealerships and brands from VW to Porsche we see cars on a daily basis that have come straight from the dealers body shop and till date I’ve yet to see one that even came close to factory finish, and I’ve seen hundreds. There’s a reason it’s so cheap, they don’t take the time or have the skills (or polishers) to properly paint and finish down to a near perfect finish, in some cases in fact even far from an acceptable finish.

This is how Infinity Honda tried to deliver my car once, they managed to (somehow) mismatch the colour even on a black car (turned the boot lid dark brown). Had an equally poor experience at Ring Road Honda Gurgaon and Solitaire Honda Mumbai, you get what you pay for in the end, generally.

[Thad E Ginathom]

My response to my dealer's work on a door that I had badly dented and scratched: "My only complaint is that you've made it look better than the rest of the car."

I'm sure, of course, that others have had very different experiences. Even with VW: many find their weakness is after-sales. I've been lucky, and I know that.

Way past warranty, and I've gone independent. I know the guy's story. And when he screwed up my [another] door, he just called me to apologise that the car wouldn't be ready as they had to repaint the panel.

Service like that is priceless --- but not necessarily expensive. On the other hand it seldom comes cheap.

I'm wondering, and maybe getting back to topic, what happened to some of the advanced coatings heard of but never seen. What about the stuff that one could take a wire brush to, and it healed? And it really wasn't a dream or a rumour! It came from a well known detailing company.

But, if I recall correctly, it was as much work as a respray, and required a very controlled environment.

It will ring bells with someone. I don't think it ever came to India. But from what I recall, such a coating would not be overpriced at respray prices.

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

My response to my dealer's work on a door that I had badly dented and scratched: "My only complaint is that you've made it look better than the rest of the car."

Ah now I understand. If that’s the standard you’re holding the shop to then I’m sure many will be able to meet the requirement at the prices mentioned earlier.

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

I'm wondering, and maybe getting back to topic, what happened to some of the advanced coatings heard of but never seen. What about the stuff that one could take a wire brush to, and it healed? And it really wasn't a dream or a rumour! It came from a well known detailing company.

But, if I recall correctly, it was as much work as a respray, and required a very controlled environment.

It will ring bells with someone. I don't think it ever came to India. But from what I recall, such a coating would not be overpriced at respray prices.

Yes they do, they are available in India. Look up Feynlab Heal Plus self healing ceramic coating, you’ll find authorised installers in most metro cities. Kamikaze Zipang coat also has light self healing properties but after import and shipping fees the bottle is almost 52k for 30ml which makes it unviable for our market.

Keep in mind these are normal ceramic coatings applied with a suede applicator and foam block, not sprayed in a paint booth. Their self heal properties are light, as they are limited to their own thickness which is max 5-8 microns. The number of times it can self level (heal) is finite so one still has to be very careful when washing.

Now coming to the sprayable coatings, there are self healing clear coats made by Akemi for example that require a paint booth and an HVLP spray gun + compressor to apply and the surface has to be prepped and wetsanded just like with regular clearcoat. These self heal clearcoats are upto 100 microns thick with solid self healing (rather self levelling) properties upto 20 microns deep. Carpro too was supposed to introduce a similar sprayable clear called Carpro Immortal but somehow never actually did, here’s a clip from a few years ago-

https://youtu.be/g4bY6ipwdgg

[somebodystopme]

Originally Posted by AJ56

Ah now I understand. If that’s the standard you’re holding the shop to then I’m sure many will be able to meet the requirement at the prices mentioned earlier.



Yes they do, they are available in India. Look up Feynlab Heal Plus self healing ceramic coating, you’ll find authorised installers in most metro cities. Kamikaze Zipang coat also has light self healing properties but after import and shipping fees the bottle is almost 52k for 30ml which makes it unviable for our market.

Keep in mind these are normal ceramic coatings applied with a suede applicator and foam block, not sprayed in a paint booth. Their self heal properties are light, as they are limited to their own thickness which is max 5-8 microns. The number of times it can self level (heal) is finite so one still has to be very careful when washing.

Now coming to the sprayable coatings, there are self healing clear coats made by Akemi for example that require a paint booth and an HVLP spray gun + compressor to apply and the surface has to be prepped and wetsanded just like with regular clearcoat. These self heal clearcoats are upto 100 microns thick with solid self healing (rather self levelling) properties upto 20 microns deep. Carpro too was supposed to introduce a similar sprayable clear called Carpro Immortal but somehow never actually did, here’s a clip from a few years ago-

https://Youtu.be/g4bY6ipwdgg

Hi,

It was a pleasure to read radically different views from bhpians. I somehow relate with both the views and agree as well and as an ending statement I would state “to each his own”.

Dear AJ
Please DM me your details incase you are a detailer or please point me to someone who is using feynlab in delhi & ncr.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by AJ56

Ah now I understand. If that’s the standard you’re holding the shop to then I’m sure many will be able to meet the requirement at the prices mentioned earlier.

Yes, the factory finish standard. It only looked better than the rest of the car because the car was aged by some years. And the difference was tiny. But hey, you are determined not to be satisfied with my bodywork and paint job --- because it was too cheap. What can I do? Go back and offer them more?

It's too late now: the car was a Chennai-flood victim.

Thank you very much for your comments on the self-heal stuff. Whilst I don't think I'll ever be in the market for it, I still have an interest in these products.

My car has, currently, no major damage, but several little things. I'd like to restore it soon.

I do, however, wonder how much it is worth spending on it, every time I watch one of my cats sliding down the paintwork.

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Yes, the factory finish standard. It only looked better than the rest of the car because the car was aged by some years. And the difference was tiny. But hey, you are determined not to be satisfied with my bodywork and paint job --- because it was too cheap. What can I do? Go back and offer them more?

It's too late now: the car was a Chennai-flood victim.

Thank you very much for your comments on the self-heal stuff. Whilst I don't think I'll ever be in the market for it, I still have an interest in these products.

My car has, currently, no major damage, but several little things. I'd like to restore it soon.

I do, however, wonder how much it is worth spending on it, every time I watch one of my cats sliding down the paintwork.

On a well cared for car, the paint should look as good as the day it rolled off the showroom floor, irrespective of its age, ideally better in fact as one would perform a finishing polish to remove the minor imperfections and haze left from the factory and amplified by the dealerships improper washing which puts fine swirls into the paint even before you buy the car.

I’m happy that you’re happy, ultimately that’s the reason behind the entire effort to make paint look it’s absolute best.

Happy to help, yes it’s fascinating to learn about nano ceramic particles that make up a ceramic coating.

You need a covered spot if you want to maintain any car long term, otherwise the constant assault of bird poo, rain water etching, UV radiation, tree sap, stray dogs/monkeys/cats, other clumsy drivers, etc. will defeat even the strongest of paint protection solutions currently in the market.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by AJ56

You need a covered spot if you want to maintain any car long term, otherwise the constant assault of bird poo, rain water etching, UV radiation, tree sap, stray dogs/monkeys/cats, other clumsy drivers, etc. will defeat even the strongest of paint protection solutions currently in the market.

Mine has a car port. Offtopic, but don't you find it absurd that car paint is not much resilient to uv, rain, bird poo, etc etc etc. It's like nobody ever sat down and said, errrm, what are the common things we need to protect against!

I do!

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Mine has a car port. Offtopic, but don't you find it absurd that car paint is not much resilient to uv, rain, bird poo, etc etc etc. It's like nobody ever sat down and said, errrm, what are the common things we need to protect against!

I do!

Automotive paint has actually evolved drastically since it’s inception over a century ago, modern dual stage colour coat - clearcoat paint systems are extremely durable against rust (major problem before) and premature breakdown, to the point that they will last well over 20 years.

Still, you have to keep in mind bird droppings and tree sap are extremely acidic and corrosive and if you neglect the paint by not removing contamination in a timely manner, you will end up with paint issues.

One more point, 99% of the cars you see on the road do not have any paint protection on them, not even a basic carnauba wax, by putting a sacrificial barrier between the paint and the environmental elements you can easily ensure the paint lasts decades, not years.

[blitz_nomad]

Folks,

I am thinking of getting a ceramic coat done for my Tata Punch. However, I have the following questions and would like some guidance.

1. Tata seems to have tie-ups with 3M and a few others. I wanted to know if I get the coat done by some other vendor - will it impact the manufacturer warranty of the car in any way?
2. If I do get the coating done elsewhere, if there are future paint jobs, minor scratch removal, does it mean that I would have to go to the same vendor again - i.e., Tata service centers will not be in a position to remove the coat?
3. The car will largely be watchman washed post the coat, I understand that it might impact the warranty of the coat, but how does the coat hold up in practice? Is this a complete no?

Thanks.

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by blitz_nomad

Folks,

I am thinking of getting a ceramic coat done for my Tata Punch. However, I have the following questions and would like some guidance.

1. Tata seems to have tie-ups with 3M and a few others. I wanted to know if I get the coat done by some other vendor - will it impact the manufacturer warranty of the car in any way?
2. If I do get the coating done elsewhere, if there are future paint jobs, minor scratch removal, does it mean that I would have to go to the same vendor again - i.e., Tata service centers will not be in a position to remove the coat?
3. The car will largely be watchman washed post the coat, I understand that it might impact the warranty of the coat, but how does the coat hold up in practice? Is this a complete no?

Thanks.

1) No, there is no way for any car mfg to determine whether a coating has been applied or not to their oem paint so warranty is a non issue. I would highly recommend you get it done from a high quality detailer whose core business is coatings over the dealer for whom it’s a quick value add job.

2) No, ceramic coatings are very thin, 2-5 microns thick at most, a medium cut rubbing compound is more than enough to strip any coating from the paint for minor correction. For repainting, the entire paint is sanded off so it’s a non issue.

3) Yes it’s a complete no, if you give it to your watchman rest assured in under 1 week it’ll be swirled up no matter how good the coating is. Would recommend you invest in a pressure washer + leaf blower for touchless washing post coating to maintain, if you want it to last many years. There are cordless machines available for those living in apartments.

Also ceramic coating warranties/top ups are mostly marketing fluff, rest assured the detailer won’t be opening a fresh kit every couple of months unless they charge you over half of what you paid initially as the kit is a significant part of the total cost.

[thanixravindran]

Originally Posted by AJ56

Also ceramic coating warranties/top ups are mostly marketing fluff, rest assured the detailer won’t be opening a fresh kit every couple of months unless they charge you over half of what you paid initially as the kit is a significant part of the total cost.

AJ56 - What are the good brands for Ceramic coating (that liquid) not the stores? From your posts, I am sure a good detailer is a key factor for proper application with good Pre-work needed but I am really confused with the marketing jargon they tell. Also, there aren't much detailer reviews in Chennai. Is it possible to buy them online (even imported) and get to a detailer, at least one part is covered with good quality ceramic liquid?

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by thanixravindran

AJ56 - What are the good brands for Ceramic coating (that liquid) not the stores? From your posts, I am sure a good detailer is a key factor for proper application with good Pre-work needed but I am really confused with the marketing jargon they tell. Also, there aren't much detailer reviews in Chennai. Is it possible to buy them online (even imported) and get to a detailer, at least one part is covered with good quality ceramic liquid?

Yes a good detailer is fundamental to a proper coating install. Pro level coatings like Optimum opticoat or Carpro CQuartz pro/finest reserve are only sold to authorized installers so one can’t get them off the shelf offline or online. Still, there are a few pro level coatings that are available for retail sale-

Gyeon Mohs: https://www.esotericcarcare.com/gyeo...-new-for-2022/

Kamiakaze Zipang coat (if cost is not a concern): https://www.esotericcarcare.com/kami...pang-coat-2-0/

If you don’t want something serious like these two, a solid diy easy to apply coating is Carpro CQuartz Lite: https://www.amazon.in/Carpro-Cquartz.../dp/B07SGMCTFF

Note: Zipang has light self heal properties so tell the installer not to apply any toppers after application. Ideal application is a Miyabi-Zipang sandwich.

[Born 2 Be Wild]

Originally Posted by AJ56

The free market will only pay where it feels utility exceeds the price being charged, and it’s apparent quite a few people are willing to pay for higher quality work which costs more, just like cars.

Not at all, protection is just part of the deal with a ceramic coating, over half of what you pay is for the restoration and hundreds of hours spent sanding and polishing the paint to perfection before a coating can be applied for protection. See here, this is just after paint correction before coating on a 10 year old F10 5 series, entire job took 3.5 days or 112 man hours to complete.

That's the thing with most of the people in today's scenario, most do not understand that its always, "you get what you pay for". Detailers in Delhi are offering ceramic coating with 10 year warranty and guarantee's and customers don't have an iota of a clue about the products being used and whats the process involved or man hours put in. Now who can explain to people that any decent 30 ml ceramic coat application bottle from any decent brand is approx 8-15k Inr, Any detailer doing an honest job will use about 1/2 the bottle for a mid size sedan,a Segment D SUV will take more. On top of that branded products used to prep the paint aren't exactly cheap either. Most detailers will say take your car within 24-48 hrs no one tells the customer that it takes up to 3-4 weeks for a ceramic coat to bond with the paint and come to its full hardness,and that during this period one has to be cautious with the car. A good detail job with quality products and done with all honesty will range between 30-60k depending on how many coats a customer wants usually 2 suffice,and the brand used. Some detailers will call all this rubbish and promise the moon for 10K

whenever any of friends who are not savvy about cars ask me that they want a Ceramic coat done, i tell them they are better off with a Wash and wax every 2 months,reason being showroom guys have already brain washed them that coatings are 8-10k, someone who is passionate about cars and loves his rides will definitely understand the tedious process involved in coating a car and the costs involved when you use good products. Detailing is a passion and there are very few passionate guys left who do it! Most are now franchisee's and fly by night operators only in it till the sun shines!

Just got my Toyota coated on 15/08 took 3 guys 48 hrs to complete it has 2 coats on,tried Si 3D Max this time used Geyon Mohs for my city earlier. It wont be moved till another 10 days.

PS: I am not a detailer and i do not recommend anyone i am just passionate about my cars

Cheers