[tharian]

Enjoyed reading the review and experiences you have had with the Bimmer.

EGR is slow suicide of a diesel engine.
Thanks to FM Sankar, I realized this early on in my ownership of my first diesel which I bought last year and inserted a plate which has a small hole(partial delete) at around 6k kms.
With just that much run, the goo of soot and oil was already doing its work of coating the intake pipe.

I am saving up to get a downpipe done at Blackworks too and probably will do a full EGR block too at the time.

Also wanted to know why you don't suggest fuel additives. Is it for just this car or any diesel car?

Waiting for more updates and pictures from you side.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by ImmortalZ

I will need a new set of rims to accommodate that size. I have the non M-Sport poverty spec 17" rims.

Please get the facelift's 5-spoke rims. I hear they are trading hands @ 30k for the set (I am myself on the lookout for a set).

By the way, both of us have done a lateral upgrade from a Civic to a 530d.

[ImmortalZ]

Originally Posted by tharian

Enjoyed reading the review and experiences you have had with the Bimmer.

EGR is slow suicide of a diesel engine.
Thanks to FM Sankar, I realized this early on in my ownership of my first diesel which I bought last year and inserted a plate which has a small hole(partial delete) at around 6k kms.
With just that much run, the goo of soot and oil was already doing its work of coating the intake pipe.

I am saving up to get a downpipe done at Blackworks too and probably will do a full EGR block too at the time.

Also wanted to know why you don't suggest fuel additives. Is it for just this car or any diesel car?

Waiting for more updates and pictures from you side.

Well, you can imagine - EGR is routing exhaust back into the inlet. Forcing the engine to eat its own waste. It's just gross man.

BMW doesn't recommend adding any additives. If you let slip that you've been using them and then develop fuel system issues, they will try to void your warranty on that matter. Plenty of horror stories on other forums about such things.

A partial block doesn't work on this car because the car knows exactly how much air the EGR is supposed to pass into the intake. And any variation does cause codes to be logged. Might as well block it fully.

Originally Posted by GTO

Please get the facelift's 5-spoke rims. I hear they are trading hands @ 30k for the set (I am myself on the lookout for a set).

That price seems way too good to be true. I've seen them for about 70k for a set on OLX. I was thinking about something from BBS as BMW wheels, even the ones BMW calls "light alloy" wheels (which are supposed to be forged) are not known for their strength. I will need a new set of tyres in less than 5K KM and I do not think I'll have the budget to splurge for a set of wheels before I will need tyres. So a new set will go on the stock wheels and the alloys will come with the next set.

Thankfully, it is effortless to use up tyres on this car, so it won't be that long a wait. :P

Originally Posted by GTO

By the way, both of us have done a lateral upgrade from a Civic to a 530d.

I still miss the Civic. Although it hasn't been sold, my wife and I have a conversation about how good that car is atleast once a month.

[Fullrevs]

That was a great read Immortalz. Glad everything is now coming together. Kudos to you and kudos to Venkat (blackworks). He is a great guy. He has worked on my CRV and the immense pleasure I get everyday from driving her...hard to put in words. A thorough professional both him and Joe. As you said too, they won't cut any corners. They would rather reject a client than take any easy shortcuts.

Wish you many happy miles with that beautiful beast of a car!!

[shibujp]

Excellent write-up. It is very relevant article for folks who are looking to purchase a second hand German luxury vehicle that is out of warranty with relatively higher mileage. While it still does not change the fact that you need to have the stomach for doing a fair bit of research and get to grips with the technical aspects of your car, it points you in the right direction which in itself helps a lot.

I also like the fact that Venkat fabricated a teflon washer for the intake. I remember one MASS fashioning a washer for my Swift steering box at 1.2 lakh km from a PVC hot pipe which worked perfectly till I sold it off. I wish workshops come up with more such solutions especially for out of warranty vehicles. If wishes could be horses, beggars would ride..

The bit about the DPF was an eye opener for me. I never felt that it was such a villain. Following this article I proceeded to read a fair bit on it and was not impressed by what I found. I feel that the German marques with their engineering depth should have had a better solution. This looked like a workaround more that a real solution. From what I could understand BMW has a mechanism to trigger the regeneration from it's dealer software. Is this effective? I kind of got the understanding that there is no real surety of this LongGen regeneration actually happening unless you take it onto the highway at regular intervals and drive in a way that meets the various conditions. I think this should be a reasonably easy mechanism that should be done with the service. Trigger an ECU routine that loads the engine at different RPMs for a stipulated period of time or something similar.

Also is this more of a problem in this generation of BMWs or do the current generation of BWMs also have similar DPF related issues?

Drive on,
Shibu

[ImmortalZ]

Originally Posted by Fullrevs

That was a great read Immortalz. Glad everything is now coming together. Kudos to you and kudos to Venkat (blackworks). He is a great guy. He has worked on my CRV and the immense pleasure I get everyday from driving her...hard to put in words. A thorough professional both him and Joe. As you said too, they won't cut any corners. They would rather reject a client than take any easy shortcuts.

I've heard stories about your CR-V. What's next for it?

Originally Posted by Fullrevs

Wish you many happy miles with that beautiful beast of a car!!

Thanks

Originally Posted by shibujp

Excellent write-up. It is very relevant article for folks who are looking to purchase a second hand German luxury vehicle that is out of warranty with relatively higher mileage. While it still does not change the fact that you need to have the stomach for doing a fair bit of research and get to grips with the technical aspects of your car, it points you in the right direction which in itself helps a lot.

I also like the fact that Venkat fabricated a teflon washer for the intake. I remember one MASS fashioning a washer for my Swift steering box at 1.2 lakh km from a PVC hot pipe which worked perfectly till I sold it off. I wish workshops come up with more such solutions especially for out of warranty vehicles. If wishes could be horses, beggars would ride..

There is a person in Trivandrum who fixed the power steering leak I had in the Civic. Honda wanted to change the whole system (rack, pump, hoses...) for 1.2L odd. He changed an O ring for free and sent me on my way. Later, Honda sabotaged the system when they saw they couldn't fleece me (razor blade cuts in the PS hoses - who are they trying to fool) and this person came to my rescue again, rebuilding the rack for 12K odd.

I have immense respect for proper mechanics like him. Venkat is of course, on a different level.

Originally Posted by shibujp

The bit about the DPF was an eye opener for me. I never felt that it was such a villain. Following this article I proceeded to read a fair bit on it and was not impressed by what I found. I feel that the German marques with their engineering depth should have had a better solution. This looked like a workaround more that a real solution. From what I could understand BMW has a mechanism to trigger the regeneration from it's dealer software. Is this effective? I kind of got the understanding that there is no real surety of this LongGen regeneration actually happening unless you take it onto the highway at regular intervals and drive in a way that meets the various conditions. I think this should be a reasonably easy mechanism that should be done with the service. Trigger an ECU routine that loads the engine at different RPMs for a stipulated period of time or something similar.

Also is this more of a problem in this generation of BMWs or do the current generation of BWMs also have similar DPF related issues?

Drive on,
Shibu

This is going to be long, so bear with me. The F10 530d comes with a DPF+catcon in India. In the US, it is additionally fitted with SCR, otherwise known as AdBlue or urea injection. A DPF is required to trap soot, while SCR is required to satisfy Euro6 pollution control requirements. Later MY cars also have more sophisticated DPF monitoring systems, with differential pressure sensors and two O2 sensors in the exhaust system.

Even then, a DPF can trap only a miniscule amount of soot before it needs to be regenerated. IIRC, this is 36g before a regeneration is triggered and 60g is the point where the filter becomes impossible to be regenerated while on the car. And regeneration is done by burning it up - which kind of begs the question - what is the point of it? They are polluting the environment in one way or the other.

As for the efficacy of the system, this is one of the factors which cause the general perception that owning a German car is an expensive affair. When drivetrain warnings like this come on, the owner will surely drop it off at the service center. The service center might ask the owner to drive in a way that lets a regen finish. Or if its too late, they might replace the DPF, which would 1.5L+ in parts alone. If you trigger a manual regen in ISTA before the second level of DPF warning is logged, you still have a good chance of regenerating the DPF to a good level. Either way, the dealership gets its share of (ridiculously high) labour and parts charges.

You can't really load an engine when its not moving unless you have a dyno of some sort. Simply revving the engine in neutral is not going to place any load on the engine. Without the load, the EGTs will not rise enough to cause regeneration, even with the extra diesel injection that the ECU does. So, if the dealership wants to do a manual regen, they have to enable it from the service software and go on a drive.

As for the better solution, that's what VW did. Clean Diesel. This involved not fitting an SCR or DPF system and simply cheating on the emissions tests. Problem solved, right?


And for which cars are affected, any car with a DPF will have these issues. Certain cars (Citroens, IIRC) come with DPF regeneration fluid which you have to refill periodically. I am not sure whether older BMWs come with DPFs. Emissions systems which come standard on these cars are in lock step with European emissions laws. And the optional systems are in lock step with the US laws, of which the California laws are the strictest in the world. Still, I don't think we'll start seeing SCR in India anytime soon.

As an aside, and as further food for thought on what efficiency is all about, the upper limit of exhaust back pressure at the DPF inlet is 15psi. Fifteen PSI. Lots of turbo cars run less than that much boost total! Imagine how much boost these things must run to keep their performance while working against 15psi of backpressure. And this is at the DPF, which is post turbine. 15psi of backpressure at that point is multiplied by the pressure ratio of the turbo when you look at the backpessure in the exhaust manifold. This is just insane. If you wonder why turbochargers fail in older German diesels, this is your answer. That along with their penchant to running small turbos at ultra high pressures to eliminate lag.

After I deleted the DPF, I ran an exhaust turbocharger diagnostic program in ISTA. It was shouting at me about an issue in the VGT system of the car because it was not seeing a pressure increase in lockstep with the increase in the VGT angles. When RPM increases from 650 to 2500, it expected to see the backpressure to increase from 1050mbar to 2500mbar. Instead it was rising only to 1150mbar. That was how much the DPF was restricting the exhaust. Now, I had a proper free flow exhaust. As a consequence, I was seeing 23-24KMPL of mileage when cruising at 120KMPH during my drive back from Bangalore. That kind of efficiency from such a huge barge of a car.

I'll take that.

[pramodkumar]

Originally Posted by ImmortalZ

That kind of efficiency from such a huge barge of a car.

I'll take that.

Tell you honestly I was little scared to force my friend into buying a BMW, especially after reading your entire thread. I do not feel he can put up with all this, however I feel if one does a ton of reading online, one can get away with maintaining a old and brute German.

That brings me to the cliché, do cheap BMWs really exist or is it another unicorn people like me chase?

Pramod

[GTO]

Originally Posted by pramodkumar

That brings me to the cliché, do cheap BMWs really exist or is it another unicorn people like me chase?

After having seen hundreds of Mercedes' & BMWs in India, nope. There is no such thing as a cheap BMW or Mercedes. Even if you find it cheap initially, it won't be so in the long run. Maintenance & repairs are expensive, and the requirements increase with age. Then, there is the insurance, tyres, steep cost of cosmetic parts if you damage them (headlights, ORVMs etc.). Depending on the car you bought & how long you own it, don't forget the heavy depreciation too.

[ImmortalZ]

Originally Posted by pramodkumar

Tell you honestly I was little scared to force my friend into buying a BMW, especially after reading your entire thread. I do not feel he can put up with all this, however I feel if one does a ton of reading online, one can get away with maintaining a old and brute German.

That brings me to the cliché, do cheap BMWs really exist or is it another unicorn people like me chase?

Pramod

If you do your reading and spend time figuring out the car by yourself, an old German can be affordable. Not cheap. If you want an ownership experience like a Honda or a Toyota where you hand it to the dealership once every year and not have a thing to worry about, you cannot find it here. Continued below.

Originally Posted by GTO

After having seen hundreds of Mercedes' & BMWs in India, nope. There is no such thing as a cheap BMW or Mercedes. Even if you find it cheap initially, it won't be so in the long run. Maintenance & repairs are expensive, and the requirements increase with age. Then, there is the insurance, tyres, steep cost of cosmetic parts if you damage them (headlights, ORVMs etc.). Depending on the car you bought & how long you own it, don't forget the steep depreciation too.

All of these things are good points. Parts can be had cheaper if you do your sourcing right. For an E60 or F10, you're not going to change suspension bushes - you'll be changing components wholesale. Why? Because BMW decided that the cost was worth it for the significant reduction in unsprung mass. If you have fancy adaptive LED headlamps in the front, you're going to pay a fortune to replace them if you smash them. And so on and so forth.

All the rules for any used car apply to a German. The parts are going to cost according to its on road price when new. What can be saved is the organized plunder that is the authorized service center and many FNGs. They see BMW and they see $_$.

Use the depreciation, buy a car that you are going to keep for a while and accept that you're not going to make much of that money back and enjoy it until you tire of it. Brake pads, tyres, oil, consumables - nothing will be as cheap as an Innova. Decide for yourself whether that ongoing cost is worth the driving pleasure the car provides. What I promise you is that there is nothing magical or mystical about troubleshooting these cars. That is the veil I wish to remove.

[Ford5]

Upon reading Diesel EGR, i found that temperature becomes an issue over long drives. Did anything of this sort happen on your BMW?

And yes the Clean Diesel made billions to VW, out of which they got fined a few billions. All in all a Good bargain for Das Auto.

[ImmortalZ]

Originally Posted by Ford5

Upon reading Diesel EGR, i found that temperature becomes an issue over long drives. Did anything of this sort happen on your BMW?

And yes the Clean Diesel made billions to VW, out of which they got fined a few billions. All in all a Good bargain for Das Auto.

The car has an EGR cooler. There's a temperature sensor near the EGR outlet to the intake manifold. Exhaust gets routed through the cooler when the temperature passes a particular threshold.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by GTO

After having seen hundreds of Mercedes' & BMWs in India, nope. There is no such thing as a cheap BMW or Mercedes. Even if you find it cheap initially, it won't be so in the long run. Maintenance & repairs are expensive, and the requirements increase with age. Then, there is the insurance, tyres, steep cost of cosmetic parts if you damage them (headlights, ORVMs etc.). Depending on the car you bought & how long you own it, don't forget the steep depreciation too.

There is no cheap BMW/Merc/VAG. Time = money. I was deeply involved with the maintenance of an pre-owned (single owner, KL with service history) around 60,000KM done E60 530D for some time. Dealt with Bay6, Platino, and another specialist in Tvm. The last one was the better of the lot, but the owner will still need to keep an eye out.

This is one of the reasons why I did not buy a used one, though the lure of 3liter inline 6 was strong. To get one taken care upto my satisfaction would have been impossible in Tvm or even Cochin which is always devil and the deep sea. If I were staying in one of the Metros I would have considered purchasing one. Rewards of driving pleasure is huge though if one is willing to put effort (mental, physical and $$) into its ownership.

[Fullrevs]

Originally Posted by ImmortalZ

I've heard stories about your CR-V. What's next for it?

Venkat has a few awesome ideas, maybe even an engine swap with the Accord 3liter V6 engine. Blackworks always have a plethora of ideas. I will be visiting him soon. Shall put up as and when things happen.

[rahul_66]

Hi Immortalz,
It was great reading about your experience in handling the entire situation. I am also currently in a similar situation with my 520D where I had got a Drivetrain error message popping up when i had driven to chikmagalur last week. The computer even starting cutting down on power in the last 50 odd kms to the hotel, i somehow managed to reach the hotel safely. The next day when i switched the car back on the message again popped up immediately on starting the car. I drove it on eco-pro mode for about 100 kms and then stopped for a coffee break. When i restarted the car the error message had gone and the car started behaving normally. I checked with my regular mechanic where i get my car serviced regularly and since we hadn't changed the transmission oil on the car we decided to change it. Got the car back last evening and it seems to be running absolutely fine but i do have that scare in the back of my mind "what if the car stops half-way during my next highway journey."
Quick questions- When u had the drivetrain error message popping up on your car, did u have a situation where the powerband went flat at certain speeds? Like 80-110 kph?

Q2. Does installing the downpipe increase engine/exhaust sound significantly?

[GTO]

Originally Posted by rahul_66

The computer even starting cutting down on power in the last 50 odd kms to the hotel

Your car might be part of a recall. Check this thread (BMW may recall over 1 million diesel cars globally due to EGR defect & possible fire!).