[Sankar]

Originally Posted by humyum

I dont get it.How does an oil filter change to K & N effect the performance of the car ?and how does he notice the change in the performance?If its because of mobil 1 agreed but how can a change in performance be noticed because of an oil filter?

K&N oil filter provides more free flow to the oil.

What makes the oil move around the engine?
The oil pump!!

And what drives the oil pump?
The engine of course!!

And it's common knowledge that there is nothing called free power.

So a part of the power made by the engine is used up by the pump to push the oil through the tight orifice of the stock filter. K&N is a performance oil filter and provides more flow so pump can push the oil a lot more easier and not much engine power is sapped by the pump!!

Get my point?

So the saved power can be used where it matters the most; i.e., to push the car forward!! So more gains at the WHP!

[cyneverdie]

Originally Posted by GTO

Used OEM filters with Mobil 1 in my Maruti Esteem, Mahindra Classic and OHC Vtec. No worries.

ever tried a K&N oil filter in those cars man?especially the esteem .

humyum : clearly , clearly feel a difference especially at high rpm's

Sankar : nice , well said

[cyneverdie]

K&N Oil Filters - Oil Filters for Cars, Trucks, Motorcycles, ATV's, Boats, and more!

Thicker canister walls for extra strength and durability which reduces the risk of damage from loose rocks and debris.

Our oil filters use resin impregnated cellulose filter media. This allows for higher flow rates while providing outstanding filtration.

Our oil filters are ideal for high-end synthetic motor oil. Synthetic motor oil is said to offer improved flow performance at cold temperatures while providing superior protection against thermal degradation.

Our Performance Gold Oil Filters use a cellulose media bound by phenolic resin surrounding a metal inner core that provides structural strength to reduce the risk of filter collapse.
The resin is the "glue" that holds the media fibers together and at the same time keeps "pores" open by keeping the fibers apart.
The resin is cured to full strength during the element manufacturing process.

Phenolic resin systems are an excellent choice for the high temperature demands of oil filters.

Our filter includes an anti-drainback valve, when applicable, that prevents oil from draining back into the crankcase during engine shutdown.

We use rolled threads to help prevent stripping during installation or removal and an internally lubricated gasket provides a positive seal even after the filter has been removed and reinstalled.

This extra engineering offers peace of mind for consumers who want only the best.

PS: The MGP and Ford GP oil filters i saw had rust in them and they were packed and marked as 4.5 months old ; to repeat what I said earlier.

PS v2 : I also repeat for a HARD driver like me it's vital and the difference is OBVIOUS.

[ananthkamath]

yeah right. this will end up like the fuelstar thing. Quoting some marketing nonsense from their website (that too improperly) doesn't prove a thing. In case you think it makes your case stronger, well, dream on.......

and how exactly do you plan to show that K&N is superior? To my knowledge OEM filters have the exact same thing.

as for the difference being obvious, I think your stock filter may have been clogged. Even then you wouldnt find a difference.

[cyneverdie]

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

yeah right. this will end up like the fuelstar thing. Quoting some marketing nonsense from their website (that too improperly) doesn't prove a thing. In case you think it makes your case stronger, well, dream on.......

BTW sideways has said that the fuelstar in his tests has a proven fuel efficiency increment of 17.5 %.
Dyno tests were being conducted .

The reason he cant immediately post the results is beacuse he now works for speedworks india and cannot easily comment as he is professionally involved with the fuelstar but rest assured he is going to speak to the MOD team about it and the results WILL be posted.

PS :
"" Quoting some marketing nonsense from their website (that too improperly) doesn't prove a thing. In case you think it makes your case stronger, well, dream on....... ""

What dont YOU agree with !???!

Do you not have an iota of sense man ?
K&N oil filters are big buddy BIG. I dont think they would be lying besides I think you need to come back to IndiA for a reality check on MGP.

PS 2:

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

and how exactly do you plan to show that K&N is superior? To my knowledge OEM filters have the exact same thing.

as for the difference being obvious, I think your stock filter may have been clogged. Even then you wouldnt find a difference.

HAH !!!
You actually think One wouldn't feel a difference in a swift if the oil filter is clogged?
Your deluded in this case man.
Can't imagine what type of driver you are if YOU cant tell if your oil filter is clogged.


No man , Rs 75 purolator oil filters do NOT have the same technology NOR build quality of the K&N performance gold oil filter.
AND the K&N's are BIGGER !

[cyneverdie]

Have to add I have examined the JDP oil filter for the swift it is available in Bombay and that itself looks better than the MGP oil filter and its Rs 220 compared to MGP Rs 75 and K&N Rs 1090.

[viper]

Originally Posted by cyneverdie

PS 2:

HAH !!!
You actually think One wouldn't feel a difference in a swift if the oil filter is clogged?
Your deluded in this case man.
Can't imagine what type of driver you are if YOU cant tell if your oil filter is clogged.

Hey Guys,

Chill, cool down maybe you should take this offline. No point in starting a war. At the end it is your opinion that K&N is better and his that its not. Both are entitled to their opinions which has been clearly expressed. Am sure all members concerned will take your points into consideration.


Viper

[humyum]

Originally Posted by Sankar

K&N oil filter provides more free flow to the oil.

What makes the oil move around the engine?
The oil pump!!

And what drives the oil pump?
The engine of course!!

And it's common knowledge that there is nothing called free power.

So a part of the power made by the engine is used up by the pump to push the oil through the tight orifice of the stock filter. K&N is a performance oil filter and provides more flow so pump can push the oil a lot more easier and not much engine power is sapped by the pump!!

Get my point?

So the saved power can be used where it matters the most; i.e., to push the car forward!! So more gains at the WHP!

What causes more free flow?
K&N oil filter
What causes more of free flow?
Less filteration properties of the K&N
What is the power gained?
A 20 micron purolator and a 35 micron K & N will make a noticable power difference?
If that was the case i guess blowing air through ones mouth into the airintake would make a noticable difference too or wait wait the exhaust gases comin out from the tail pipe would give the car a 2kmph top speed advantage.
About high pressure withstanding capacties of the K & N,manufacturers launch cars and give out an OE oil filter with high rpm red line tests which is carried on for hours.So if cyneverdie u say that K&N can withstand high pressure and all,it can probably withstand a nuclear bomb but thats not the point.What is required for an oil filter to do is done by an OE filter and hence K & N is not worth the extra 900 u spend.
Anyway this is only my opinion and i m not starting a war here.

[cyneverdie]

Originally Posted by humyum

What is the power gained?
A 20 micron purolator and a 35 micron K & N will make a noticable power difference?

Maybe because I am sleepy but your not making much sense to me now but get your facts right , the K&N gives 10 -20 micron filteration ! Dont know where you got your figures from.

Look at a NHC's oil filter [ stock ] then look at the MGP , you will see the difference.

yumhum : how do you drive man? Would you define yourself as a high rev ing performance enthusiast?
Because I am man , have always been too and I would gladly pay 900 rs more for this filter . The results satisfy me , completely. .

Besides your not "meant " to run the swift on synthetic oil ! Run it on Rs 450 [?] mineral MGP oil and be happy right?

PS : after re rereading your last post :- I never stated That i needed this higher pressure rating [ that just shows it's a tougher filter ] , what I believe I did notice WAS the increased flow rates as well as 150 ish ml more oil capacity

Originally Posted by humyum

If that was the case i guess blowing air through ones mouth into the airintake would make a noticable difference too or wait wait the exhaust gases comin out from the tail pipe would give the car a 2kmph top speed advantage.

? still dont get it , back later man , feel free to explain yourself.
Dont worry i believe in " make peace not war " anyways.

Originally Posted by humyum

Hmmmm its a good oil filter but i dont think they can hold for that long.U seriously need to invest in some good quality oil filter if u are not going to change your oil for 15000 km.

You said this 2 years ago BTW. I change my synthetic oil at 7500 km that too.

[humyum]

Originally Posted by cyneverdie

Maybe because I am sleepy but your not making much sense to me now but get your facts right , the K&N gives 10 -20 micron filteration ! Dont know where you got your figures from.

Look at a NHC's oil filter [ stock ] then look at the MGP , you will see the difference.

yumhum : how do you drive man? Would you define yourself as a high rev ing performance enthusiast?
Because I am man , have always been too and I would gladly pay 900 rs more for this filter . The results satisfy me , completely. .

Besides your not "meant " to run the swift on synthetic oil ! Run it on Rs 450 [?] mineral MGP oil and be happy right?

That was an 'EXAMPLE' about the microns and 'can it be called a performane advantage' kind of comparsion and not the actual figures.
Running it on synthetic oil and comparing it to the oil filters is not the right comparision.U can overdo everythin to a limit.
U can use castrol magnatec and change it every 5000 km and change it 2 times in 10000 km and people do that.That way u can have fresh oil every 5 thousand km.Anyway its where u stop the overdoing.U stop a little ahead,i stop a little before.
Anyway to each his own.

[cyneverdie]

Originally Posted by humyum

That was an 'EXAMPLE' about the microns and 'can it be called a performane advantage' kind of comparsion and not the actual figures.
...
Anyway to each his own.

The micron rating has nothing to do with performance ; it has everything to do with engine protection though.

And yes each to his own.

Originally Posted by cyneverdie

yumhum : how do you drive man? Would you define yourself as a high rev ing performance enthusiast?
Because I am man , have always been too and I would gladly pay 900 rs more for this filter . The results satisfy me , completely. .

humyum : you did not answer my question though.

PS : BIG difference in magnatec and mobil 1 or OWS. Trust me , have used all the magnatec s myself.

Ps v2 : just caught this :-

Originally Posted by humyum

What causes more free flow?
K&N oil filter
What causes more of free flow?
Less filteration properties of the K&N
What is the power gained?

The K&N filters better or the same man , not less. Do get your facts straight.

[ananthkamath]

viper, i understand your desire to pacify the situation, but this is not an opinion i'm stating. Its based on hard facts which I as an engineer feel compelled to state.

Originally Posted by cyneverdie

What dont YOU agree with !???!

Ok. I'll let you in on a secret. I have access to information that you don't. Its called the 2008 SAE Handbook. SAE, in case you didnt know, is the body that regulates and standardizes all testing procedures for ANY automotive component you can think of. And sure as hell, they have a test protocol for oil filters (SAE J1858, look it up). I'd love to post the entire list of test parameters here, but its overkill considering the audience. I can assure you that they include ALL the tests to ensure an OE filter does its job satisfactorily.

Let me ask you a question: Do you think Maruti is stupid? Their engineers, or more precisely Suzuki engineers, dont spend their time surfing the net like you and me. They have gone to huge lengths to ensure that the oil filter, probably one of the most critical consumables in a car, WILL meet all the performance requirements and WILL pass their reliability testing. Ergo, there is absolutely no need for a better oil filter, even though your car maybe putting out eleventy billion horsepower.

You posted these seemingly great features of the K&N; I will proceed to debunk each one below:



Thicker canister walls for extra strength and durability which reduces the risk of damage from loose rocks and debris.

Risk of damage? Biggest load of bull I've ever heard. The oil filter is the least susceptible to road damage. Guess why? Its designed that way. Cause if there were rock damage you would instantly lose oil pressure and the engine would be damaged before you knew it.

And, SAE J1858, which myself and ALL MANUFACTURERS, including K&N, consider as God's Own Word as far as oil filters are concerned, does NOT mandate a structural failure test which occurs due to an external impact load.



Our oil filters use resin impregnated cellulose filter media. This allows for higher flow rates while providing outstanding filtration.

Oil filters are tested to something known as a rated flow. Its the max. flow rate of a specified fluid for which the filter is designed. Now, this rated flow is FAR FAR beyond anything that the filter will see in actual service. Ergo, the "higher flow rate"offered by your beloved K&N is absolutely useless as far as the engine is concerned.



Our Performance Gold Oil Filters use a cellulose media bound by phenolic resin surrounding a metal inner core that provides structural strength to reduce the risk of filter collapse.

Again, filters are subjected to a element collapse pressure test which I can assure you is FAR FAR beyond what the element would see in actual service. Therefore, the "structural strength" offered by your beloved K&N filter, may survive a nuclear blast, but it wont perform any better than your apparently ****ty cheap little OEM filter.



Our filter includes an anti-drainback valve, when applicable, that prevents oil from draining back into the crankcase during engine shutdown.

OOH that's high tech. NOTTT!!!! Every single filter made today has an anti-drainback valve.



We use rolled threads to help prevent stripping during installation or removal and an internally lubricated gasket provides a positive seal even after the filter has been removed and reinstalled.

That's a nice feature to have. Specially if the guy installing the filter is a certified idiot. Who doesnt even know how to start screwing on a filter straight. Or doesnt even know that the rubber seal on a new filter has to be lubed and torqued right. Or, NEVER EVER to reuse an oil filter after it has been removed. Ok, I grant K&N this one, they expect the customer to be an idiot, and a cheapskate who doesnt want to change his filter (understandable since he probably paid through his nose hair for it)



This extra engineering offers peace of mind for consumers who want only the best.

For sure. And who don't have the sense to understand the amount of engineering that has gone into specifying the right filter for the job, and no more than that.

Originally Posted by cyneverdie

PS: The MGP and Ford GP oil filters i saw had rust in them and they were packed and marked as 4.5 months old ; to repeat what I said earlier.

PS v2 : I also repeat for a HARD driver like me it's vital and the difference is OBVIOUS.

The rust is not quite acceptable, but a little surface rust did no one any harm. How can you be so sure that ALL types of rust will dislodge itself at a measly 70 psi of oil pressure and eat up your eleventy billion horsepower engine? NOTTTT!!

Originally Posted by cyneverdie

PS v2 : I also repeat for a HARD driver like me it's vital and the difference is OBVIOUS.

Whatever you say man. Hitler believed Aryans are superior to everyone else, that doesn't mean its true.

Originally Posted by cyneverdie

K&N oil filters are big buddy BIG. I dont think they would be lying besides I think you need to come back to IndiA for a reality check on MGP.

OOOH!! Ok. That's your logic. "They're big, BIG, B_I_G man, they must be better, so just shut up". Ok. Yeah I don't think they're lying either. But I'm sure they're extolling the virtues of their so-called superior filter just a LIIITTLLE bit more than what reality reflects. To remind you, that's called marketing.

Originally Posted by cyneverdie

PS 2:

HAH !!!
You actually think One wouldn't feel a difference in a swift if the oil filter is clogged?
Your deluded in this case man.
Can't imagine what type of driver you are if YOU cant tell if your oil filter is clogged.

I'm deluded? I've had 6 cars in the past 4 years. I have worked on several more during the same period. All of them were used, had high miles, and were in pretty bad shape when I got them (except the Jetta and Miata). The Miata (done 2,40,000 km so far) was good in all respects except the oil. The previous owner had probably done 15000 miles (24150 km FYI) on the same non-synthetic oil. He personally told me the filter had not been changed for a long while. Sure enough, the oil was PITCH BLACK. I immediately changed the oil. And I changed the oil filter to an OEM filter from the Mazda Millenia which has twice the engine capacity. The engine oil filter is twice as big from the outside and has 3 times more volume. Yet, I could not percieve even an iota of difference between the way the car ran before and after.

And dont you delude yourself into thinking you're the only "high performance" driver around. That car gets thrashed to 7000 rpm each time, every time. In the US can do that since there are wide open roads. Which need you to mash the throttle at every light. No babying any car in THIS country. And YET, YET, I felt absolutely no difference in the way the car behaved. Maybe my sensory perception is really, really poor compared to yours (which I must say is quite superhuman by any standard).

Originally Posted by cyneverdie

No man , Rs 75 purolator oil filters do NOT have the same technology NOR build quality of the K&N performance gold oil filter.
AND the K&N's are BIGGER !

Again, whatever you say man. I don't give a damn about opinions, I believe in objectivity and testing. I have said this before (though refering to K&N air filters), and I'll say it again:

I challenge any K&N distributor in India to disprove these facts and make us all aware, through objective tests, of the superiority of a K&N oil filter. I will eat my very words if I'm proved wrong.


K&N is just an organization run by masterminds in marketing. Much like many aftermarket companies, they've manipulated the customer to think "Bigger is better" and hence have played an excellent mind game. Here's my level of involvement with anything K&N: The day they go public, I'm going to be buying some shares of theirs. They've shown the way for aftermarket companies to become household names.

I don't have anything against K&N, I think they make high quality stuff, but I'm a firm believer in the "law of diminishing returns". Which means I dont NEED a $25 oil filter when my $2.50 oil filter does the job as well. I mean, I'm going to throw it away in 3000 miles anyway, won't I?

[GTO]

Just a blatant example of how some of us can fall to aggressive marketing. Ananths post reinforces the fact that a K&N filter is a waste of money. I see a similarity in this and the situation where some guys put high performance plugs + wires in their marginally modified cars.

[cyneverdie]

Purolator - Pure Oil Now. Pure Oil Later.

PureONE is the cheapest insurance available for your car today. Does it make sense to spend hundreds, or thousands, of dollars on automobile insurance each year, and then turn around and save a buck or two by purchasing an oil filter with less quality?
PureONE is the top ranked filter in SAE tests at keeping your oil pure. And why no other filter provides better protection for your engine.



Now this purolator oil filter , yes I would love.


Not gonna argue with you anant.
Anant you need to get off those cosy US highways and come to India and see the severe conditions AND MGP yourself.
PS : Anant - in the swift the oil filter bottow is the lowest point on the car , so yes stone damage IS a BIG possibility .
PS2: Anant it takes time and driving time to get to know a car to gauge differences.

PS3: You ran a 300% oversized oilfilter? Thats not good man.

Originally Posted by GTO

Just a blatant example of how some of us can fall to aggressive marketing. Ananths post reinforces the fact that a K&N filter is a waste of money. I see a similarity in this and the situation where some guys put high performance plugs + wires in their marginally modified cars.

GTO are you saying that MGP spark plugs compared to OWS or NGK high end plugs makes NO sense and NO difference?
If you are man , I have no respect for that opinion.
ABSOLUTELY NONE man.



Besides I trust me with my car and the difference is OBVIOUS.
Chapter closed for me , going to bed , its just passed my bedtime.

[humyum]

Originally Posted by cyneverdie

Maybe because I am sleepy but your not making much sense to me now but get your facts right , the K&N gives 10 -20 micron filteration ! Dont know where you got your figures from.

Look at a NHC's oil filter [ stock ] then look at the MGP , you will see the difference.

yumhum : how do you drive man? Would you define yourself as a high rev ing performance enthusiast?
Because I am man , have always been too and I would gladly pay 900 rs more for this filter . The results satisfy me , completely. .

Besides your not "meant " to run the swift on synthetic oil ! Run it on Rs 450 [?] mineral MGP oil and be happy right?

PS : after re rereading your last post :- I never stated That i needed this higher pressure rating [ that just shows it's a tougher filter ] , what I believe I did notice WAS the increased flow rates as well as 150 ish ml more oil capacity



? still dont get it , back later man , feel free to explain yourself.
Dont worry i believe in " make peace not war " anyways.

You said this 2 years ago BTW. I change my synthetic oil at 7500 km that too.

I said that 2 years ago because i was not an engineer then.
I drive at high revs only when i feel like.Its not always pedal to the metal.
Engine requires what it requires and the OE filter supplies it,otherwise the engine would not be lasting 1.5 to 2 lakh km.Having 150 ml oil capacity wont help in anyway.
Yes there is difference in magnatec and mobil 1 but u get a fresher oil every 5 thousand km.Its a matter of prefrence.
K&N is not about better or same.Its not worth 1000 bucks is all i say.

Originally Posted by cyneverdie

The micron rating has nothing to do with performance ; it has everything to do with engine protection though.

And yes each to his own.


humyum : you did not answer my question though.

PS : BIG difference in magnatec and mobil 1 or OWS. Trust me , have used all the magnatec s myself.

Ps v2 : just caught this :-


The K&N filters better or the same man , not less. Do get your facts straight.

A filter with a higher micron rating(say 30 micron) will have a better flow rate than a filter with a (20 micron) but the first filter will have lesser filteration properties than the 2nd one.But u think this will be noticed in engine power? NO.
So its the micron rating that matters and not the bla bla pressure bla bla.Manufacturers select the filters on this.