[rmonie]

For whatever its worth, some links to the Motor Vehicles Act.
Laws - Motor Vehicles Act, 1988 Section 52
http://indiacode.nic.in/fullact1.asp?tfnm=200027
Transport Department

[thereal]

Originally Posted by Blue Thunder

Yes, exactly . I think you are getting the general idea of the situation now.

.



That was in the past, I think. Now I think they must be having newer products. Their website shows pics of some DI Turbo engines, but there is no techinical info about that.

.

regarding jayem auto , they are acting as a Testing and Tuning hub for Tata motors .they have a seperate engine testing centre to run endurance testing .Almost all TM's new engines (which were selected randomly) were tested here atleast few cycles and they also do fine tune them for optimum performance.
and test them on the road.
way back in 2005 they were working on Indica Silhoutte which had a rover engine meant for exports, which practically clocks 200kms with ease.
i have seen these engines getting tuned and tested on road for optimum performance.

they are now testing a new model indigo with a supposedly a quadrajet engine (Earlier i worked for Jayem Auto- but now am not)

except for that the do some R&D stuff too, manufacture engine parts and supply to Tata Motors like cylinder head etc.

they also have a Motor sport wing which does good job for MRF racing.
when i was working Jayem's motor sports division received accolades for its Suspension struts which it developed for baleno's for their rally.

the answers for your engine swap question is that

It is illegal now in India to Swap engines , lastly i heard about engine swaping were for cielo daewoo with imported Toyoto diesel engines.
Till 99 (am not sure) swapping was a common scene, but later it became a rare scene.

but behid the screens you would do these swaping

[Astleviz]

Originally Posted by khan_sultan

Ohhhhhhhh... the responses have made me thinking now. I was under the impression that an 'engine swap' (either old or new) can be endorsed in the RC book.

That's the reason I wanted to know how, where & what 'NEW' engine options were available in India.

So does that mean that all these petrol to diesel engine swaps in jeeps etc and all engine swaps for performance are not 'legal' ? If the RTO is in a bad mood, he could make the owners life miserable if caught..

Petrol to petrol engine conversion can be endorsed by the RTO but Petrol-diesel conversion is not allowed. This is the rule in Delhi, not sure if the rule differs in some other states.

[gears2go]

Just posting here once again to make the thread alive. Out of curiosity, I would really love to know the possible options for car owners who want to buy car engines from the same manufacturer. For instance, you own a very old Tata Sumo and want to buy a new engine from TATA, preferably a Turbocharged version.

I believe it's legally possible. I remember GTO fitting a Bolero engine in his classic.

[Sudarshan]

People we are missing important point here .

The legality of the engine change .( What the Law says )

Anyone has thought upon it ?

Anyone has thought upon the consequences ?

Anyone has thought that the RTO are the most knowledgeable guys ( any govt official for that matter ) when it comes to taking action on you ? ( better word is screwing you up ) ??

Please think , a vehicle having clear papers from other state can be scrutinized by the local RTO & they do take necessary corrective action for that matter.

So anyone thinking having clear endorsement from UK/JK is playing with fire .

We have some learned & esteemed lawyer members here, they can study the Motor Vehicle Act ( up to date )

My intentions are not screwing anyone's happiness here.

Gone are the days when the Number of modified cars was so tiny & the authorities actually overlooked the things people did to cars.But now, the amount of which the showoff is made is itself an open invitation for the prying eyes of the officials. They know now some serious money is involved .

Just OT but recently bumped on some one on a public forum who turned out to be a customs official & he said internet & forums have been proving good source of information to hunt down tax evasions.

Just think, guys at the govt offices are just like us, just as literate as us but having some more knowledge of the law .

Sudarshan .

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by Sudarshan

People we are missing important point here .

True.

The legality of the engine change .( What the Law says )

Not just the engine, many other things including tires, electricals and wheel rims.

Anyone has thought upon it ?

Why should one? Chalta hai attitude.

Anyone has thought upon the consequences ?

Why should one? Chalta hai attitude.

Anyone has thought that the RTO are the most knowledgeable guys ( any govt official for that matter ) when it comes to taking action on you ? ( better word is screwing you up ) ??

Pray these guys wake up and read TBHP.

We have some learned & esteemed lawyer members here, they can study the Motor Vehicle Act ( up to date )

Good suggestion from you.

Gone are the days when the Number of modified cars was so tiny & the authorities actually overlooked the things people did to cars.But now, the amount of which the showoff is made is itself an open invitation for the prying eyes of the officials. They know now some serious money is involved

Just OT but recently bumped on some one on a public forum who turned out to be a customs official & he said internet & forums have been proving good source of information to hunt down tax evasions.

Amen !

Just think, guys at the govt offices are just like us, just as literate as us but having some more knowledge of the law .

Again, chalta hai attitude. I am surprised to see and hear so many engine changes being suggested and discussed, as if it is so trivial. The problem is, the whole system from top to bottom is corrupt, where do they start with?

It is only when "We" as responsible individuals take up the tasks to ourselves, not to propagate such wrong measures.

I don't know if there is any point discussing here.

Spike

[headers]

Actually guys, modifications can be done to any vehicle as long as it is street legal and we can discuss the limits here.

No need to get perturbed.

[Sudarshan]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

Why should one? Chalta hai attitude.

It is only when "We" as responsible individuals take up the tasks to ourselves, not to propagate such wrong measures.

I don't know if there is any point discussing here.

Spike

There has to be some midway , I personally would like to try some mods , that I know wont fit in the law .

Thats the main reason I kept my landy restorations to stock limit . I have seen people run in with the RTO

Originally Posted by headers

No need to get perturbed.

Each to his own, Authorities are not saints. Had they been it would have been actually bit easier to tackle . But once you endup on the wrong side, endless milking begins .

This is Not OT, in fact it should be the first thing sought before every modification is even thought of .

Modifications NOT permissible under law must be known or stated with every such thread . Who knows this will save some one from possible trouble in the future .

Thats what my intention was .

Peace for everyone , I rest my case .

Sudarshan

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by Sudarshan

People we are missing important point here .

The legality of the engine change .( What the Law says )

Anyone has thought upon it ?

Anyone has thought upon the consequences ?

Anyone has thought that the RTO are the most knowledgeable guys ( any govt official for that matter ) when it comes to taking action on you ? ( better word is screwing you up ) ??

Please think , a vehicle having clear papers from other state can be scrutinized by the local RTO & they do take necessary corrective action for that matter.

So anyone thinking having clear endorsement from UK/JK is playing with fire .

We have some learned & esteemed lawyer members here, they can study the Motor Vehicle Act ( up to date )

My intentions are not screwing anyone's happiness here.

Gone are the days when the Number of modified cars was so tiny & the authorities actually overlooked the things people did to cars.But now, the amount of which the showoff is made is itself an open invitation for the prying eyes of the officials. They know now some serious money is involved .

Just OT but recently bumped on some one on a public forum who turned out to be a customs official & he said internet & forums have been proving good source of information to hunt down tax evasions.

Just think, guys at the govt offices are just like us, just as literate as us but having some more knowledge of the law .

Sudarshan .

Our Marshal had a non-original block taken from the scrapyard, and the previous owner went with me down to the RTO / Vehicle inspector to get it changed on the RC before we finished the deal. Fairly painless in our case. Being that it would be a rare MVI who could actually tell the difference between a XD3P and a 4.9 (and probably even the MDI) by looking at the outside, and as surely neither they nor any insurance broker is going to remove a cylinder head to see whether your bore / stroke are the same as the original engine and thus maybe "fraudulent" in being 2.5L vs. a 2.1 (come on now, they really are too lazy for that and could generally care less), really all most people are probably going to have to be concerned with is the actual engine block serial number. If officialdom in your jurisdiction is generally cooperative enough to get something like this done, I really doubt there's much else to worry about.

I do not live in your jurisdiction, of course, nor am I informed of whatever extreme vigilance may exist on the part of your particular government officials or insurance-panderers... I'm making a few assumptions here based on my own limited experience.

I might add that here in H.P., the Peugeots are actually regarded by many mechanics as a "failure" - and with DI's a common "upgrade" it's hardly an unprecedented or unjustifiable swap.

-Erik

[Sudarshan]

Originally Posted by ringoism

Being that it would be a rare MVI who could actually tell the difference between a XD3P and a 4.9 (and probably even the MDI) by looking at the outside, and as surely neither they nor any insurance broker is going to remove a cylinder head to see whether your bore / stroke are the same as the original engine and thus maybe "fraudulent" in being 2.5L vs. a 2.1 (come on now, they really are too lazy for that and could generally care less)

# An officer at Pune RTO was unable to find starter lever of my Yezdi , at its RRC

# Insurance official could not find chassis No. of My old Jeep

# Few years ago RTO at & around Thane/Mumbai checked Maruti cars for matching engine ,chassis No in their list & color also .

# A friend in a southern city was held for months for the RRC of his Land Rover due to color issue ( it was some 'military' green according to officer )

# observed strict scrutiny by insurance surveyor after an accident , Including mine .

# At the time of transfer of ownership of my Land Rover, RTO Pune demands an Affidavit on stamp paper from me, as I wont be using it ferrying passengers.( they said its being regularly demanded & people complied, in case of vehicles having a carrying capacity of 8 or more ) Later he backs off as there was no bassis for that & when I told that I would prefer it using on friends name rather an affidavit

# CH passed trucks held invalid for their extended width to carry more scooters, they settled it .

# BMC surveyed housing societies for outside registered cars & issued notices to residents to pay octroy, we received one & paid .

really all most people are probably going to have to be concerned with is the actual engine block serial number. If officialdom in your jurisdiction is generally cooperative enough to get something like this done, I really doubt there's much else to worry about.

So by buying their co operation, you can put a truck engine in a Jeep & rely on his loyalty ?? Go ahead .

I do not live in your jurisdiction, of course, nor am I informed of whatever extreme vigilance may exist on the part of your particular government officials or insurance-panderers... I'm making a few assumptions here based on my own limited experience.

You must be aware of the recent 'Car-Film ' case, every cop is eager to protect law. Imagine this about some off roader jacking up his wheels & removing his extra wide tyres, public would love the spectacle

Please check the laws regarding the use of lights, horns, sunfilms etc.

Just let me give you a list as to what alterations can land you in trouble if the authorities decide to. ( all these are recorded with them, of your model )

Change in

# Wheel track

# Wheel base

# color

# fuel

# overall dimensions

Be careful & best of luck . Its coming

I hope some moron does not file a PIL about this .

Sudarshan

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by Sudarshan

So by buying their co operation, you can put a truck engine in a Jeep & rely on his loyalty ?? Go ahead .

First, the DI is a Jeep engine, having been offered as original equipment in similar doorless lightweights to the 340, like the Major. Secondly, paying bribes (like receiving them) is completely illegal, and I never have once done it in any case, nor do I recommend it. What I am suggesting is that most Indian laws seem to be somewhat open to interpretation / exceptions/ the discretion of the official in authority (in this case, the MVI), and that sometimes they are willing to be flexible, when they understand that it's the spirit of the law (rather than the letter) which actually helps that law fulfill its intended purpose (essentially, to protect the public from each other and themselves).

Case in point: I know, eh, someone who took his 1987 KB125 down late last year for a 15-year "passing" for re-registration. It had long, beefy non-original imported forks (off a mid-1970's Suzuki Enduro); non original high front mudguard (of Taiwanese origin); non-orignal tire widths on both ends; a lengthened rear swingarm and non-standard (and adjustable) mounting for the rear shockers, which were also of non-original length; Wider handlebar; A tiny non-original taillight fitted into a non-original rear fairing (made of a 5L ELF oil can, in fact!), with no rear mudguard; It had a non-original custom two-piece seat. And not the entire bike was painted the red colour indicated on the RC (anyway the original "red" was almost maroon-ish); Also had a huge non-original big chrome brush-guard type headlamp; custom-made instrument housings with none of the original warning lamps; And a 5-speed gearset vs. the original 4-speed. AND MOST NOTABLY, NO TURN INDICATORS, as they'd been removed (there are no traffic signals or four-way crossings in the locale). I might mention that the engine number was not inspected nor traced, and when it was offered, the owner was told it was "unimportant". In truth, with all the changes, the bike is much better and safer and more roadworthy at any speed and on any road than it ever was in its original state, and this, eh, someone has ridden it successfully as far as Nepal and Ladakh and Spiti, etc, over several years in this configuration.

Now of the virtual encyclopedia of "violations" mentioned above that the MVI (a rather serious and stern individual in this case) might have taken issue with, the ONLY one he said anything about was the lack of turn indicators. The owner said that some bikes in '87 (like certain Yezdi models) didn't come with them. MVI said he needed to get them fitted. Owner said it was difficult, as original spares were not available. He said "You have to try". Owner said "It's difficult. Please sir. There are hardly any intersections near me and I built the bike to ride to places like Ladakh and Spiti and I use hand signals when necessary." MVI said, "How can I pass it without indicators?" Owner said, "Please sir". And then he waited. Until all the other people's documents had been signed off. And then he stood politely in front of that stern MVI and looked at him pleadingly. And the MVI said, "How can I pass this?" And the owner said, "Please Sir". And the MVI said, "Do you promise to try and get them fitted?" And the owner said, "I can try". And the MVI said, "At the next five-year inspection, you'll have to have them." And then signed off. And the owner thanked him, subordinately. And that was the end of it.

I might add that (gov't) insurance company agents re-issue third-party insurance every year with the bike in this condition - with photos of the highly modified bike - and have never commented on anything being amiss.

Also on the Marshal, which I have lately discovered was originally 2WD and converted years ago, had “4x4” added to the RC at the same time the engine serial number was updated (old block cracked) prior to my purchase - and the 6.00-16 tires and 7" wide Sumo Grand wheels vs. the 215/75/15's on the RC were apparently also not a problem. I actually wasn’t there when the seller met the MVI, so not sure whether anything was passed “under the table” or not; the MVI apparently only required a receipt from the salvage yard from whom the block had been purchased, which I saw with my own eyes.

IMO, people tend to expect too little of their government servants (I could tell you a similar story from an experience at the Passport Office, which most people told me that OF COURSE, I really would just have to go back down eight hours to the state capital and bring some rude sub-officer a document she was demanding that was not actually by law required... Well, I did NOT, and we DO finally have that new passport). Who is the servant, what is their responsibility to the public, and forget bribes, who pays their salaries (we do!)?

So let's suppose a certain MVI is technically astute and observant and cares about the safety of the public, and recognizes a certain amount of flexibility in his interpretation of the code (as is almost always legitimately possible / legal). If I remove a 62bhp 2.1L engine and replace it with a 58bhp 2.5L, EVEN IF the MVI noticed, would a right-minded one who understands what the law is supposed to do really have any problem with it? If he knows enough to even notice, he will also know that just having your IP timing a couple degrees advanced or retarded could create more difference in power output in either direction. It’s a heavier engine? Okay, fine. So he sees you’ve added a couple of leafs to your front springs, and knows that M&M offered the DI in lightweights like the Major. You’ve done some responsible minor re-engineering to bring it up to the factory specs of a similar model offered by the manufacturer – does he really feel you should be punished for that?

It is possible that he will request a bribe of course, just because that’s what most so-called public servants here do. Well, if the general public started lobbying to: A) Get rid of antiquated, contradictory, and ridiculous laws; and was committed to B) Refusing to pay bribes; and C) Making good use of the Right to Information Act (RTI - Example: Please provide a statement, in specific terms, outlining specific unrectifiable safety issues caused by installing a more modern engine of 50kg extra weight to the vehicle in question, when the suspension has correspondingly been upgraded to the exact specification of subsequent factory models utilizing the same exact engine? Etc.) - IF and WHEN that happens, it is quite possible that normal, law-abiding people like ourselves would begin to be harassed a lot less by people whose salaries we pay, and to not be criminalized for what are generally harmless - and often beneficial - modifications and tinkerings on our vehicles.

I’ll get off my soapbox now. Please understand that there's no offense whatsoever intended, and I don't present any of this in an argumentative spirit. Do find these kinds of things unnecessarily frustrating, though. Maybe partly because I grew up in a land where engine numbers are not even listed on RC's, where MVI's, if they exist, could care less what engine your vehicle originally had; where engines of often double or triple the original displacement and several times the horsepower were shoehorned into cars (the automakers themselves did it, for that matter - Google "V8 Vega", as one example), where insurance agents often don't even need to see or photograph the cars they're insuring, etc, etc. Motor vehicle laws I've heard of in the U.K. seem ludicrous, oppressive, and ultimately ineffective, and I would guess that India's might've been originally based on theirs? Difficult when someone's perception of being lawful means forbidding positive alterations that could make a vehicle MORE safe, or efficient, or clean-running, or comfortable, or easy to drive, or ???. That's when you know the law isn't doing its job very well.

Anyway, neither of my vehicles is totally original, and both, according to the people paid and empowered by the government to ensure the roadworthiness and safety of vehicles including altered ones, are completely legal to drive and use on Indian roads. I think that's enough for me. And I have never had to bribe anyone (though I admit, I did have to be polite and persistent - and to PRAY FERVENTLY to the maker of heaven and earth besides!).

I won't say more on this, because I'm completely ignorant of the letter of the law, and I know that officials (like people) are of different natures everywhere, and that it might only be God's grace that I've not had problems. Just sharing my experiences of trying to simultaneously be a motorhead and a law-abiding resident of this great land. So far in my case, it seems it might actually be possible.

Regards,
Erik

[/i].

[Sudarshan]

^^ Please check my post & think .

Here

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-te...ml#post3106271


We can discuss it there ( on that thread )


Here I think we are going bit OT

Sudarshan