Boosted Elantra CRDI!

sameel · 25th March 2009, 21:11

yes psycho you are right! what i meant is in a cost conscious market like ?india i dont think the VTG units in scorpio and the dicor and likes ( verna am not sure since its a hyundai international market design not india specific) there would be litlle chance that a wastegate is indeed present. i havent broken apart a turbo assembly and done the analysis . if you have any info please do share

the EGR is there cause its needed for meeting the euro 4 emission needs.

the VTG also have another problem temperature resistance. in petrol vehhicles it wont be that easy to install one. since exhaust is more hotter compared to diesel. special grade materials should have to be used for making one. ( the order of efficiency is FGT < VGT< Bi turbo < bi VGT )

the diesels are not usually given two stage turbo since there is lilittle RPM range.
whereas petrols with there arger rev range benefit greatly from a Bi-turbo unit.

but yes i am pretty sure a greddy boost controlller wont be able to change the boost in a VGT equipped car its much more complicated. the design that is. i have done wrk on the E class Bi VGT unit. there is this Governer logic that has to be chosed based on two inputs. actually the difference of the two inputs is given as the output to the Governer logic switcher. and yes the two inputs comes from the ECU. therefore here though there will be a boost controller internal to the vehicle. that is turbo or vehicle specific( mainly to safeguard the turbo from overboostinf and going to dangerous rpm level) the whole thing works in closed loop control with ECU.

based on the driver demand from the ETS block the ECU decides on the control algorithm of the VGT. whereas in the FGT there is only one boosting possible. till the turbo spools up one has to wait! hehe.

its not a simple thing as FGT

cheers
sameel

vikram_d · 25th March 2009, 22:37

Sameel - You don't need to break open a turbo to figure out whether it has a waste gate or not.

sameel · 25th March 2009, 23:44

yes thats right

i havent yet bothered. to look under the hood if the verna VGT unit has got a wastegate or not.? thats all.
it doesnt make a difference to me. my racing days are almost over..
please let me know if indeed the VGT unit in the verna or scorpio has an internal wastegate? its mostly going to be a nozzle that will be doing the same function of a wastegate. hence the difference in sounds when you hear to the whistling sound of a normal turbo to a VGT one.

the turbo units in diesels work in a principle of EGR and VGT.( the latest generation VGT cars) [ FGT vehicles also it]
the EGR decides the mass of the air flow into intake manifold and the VGT decides the intake manifold pressure.

so when we ask the ECU to increase the boost(floor the pedal that is lol) there should be maximum air to inject the fuel required( keeping the air to fuel ratio within tolerance range) the EGR will be almost turned off or control logic to EGR will be around 20-30%
input level.

these calculations are made from a preset look up table ( map) with different outputsfor different engine speed and load. together with fueling rate.

in indian cars( most probably) the EGR and VGT are controlled indepededntly.
two closed loop systems are used. a combined logic will require additional hardware. which will be cost constraint.( but yes better control is guaranteed)

the probelm with VGT is that these systems the new ones. ( very old ones use pressure type actuated ( homologous to a wastegate ) boost control) the new ones use the P-I-D controllers.
the calculation is a mess! in simple terms the airmass and intake boost are looked up from a map for the given engine speed and load. and the PID controll will varyt the EGR and VGT to make the difference between referenced airmass and intake manifold pressure , and actual airmass and intake manifold pressure to be minimum!!.

feeling pretty sleepy.

cheers
sameel

ananthkamath · 26th March 2009, 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by sameel

feeling pretty sleepy.

Me too, after reading your post.

I have no idea what you're trying to say. What's the consequence of all this ECU talk?

sameel · 26th March 2009, 08:58

the ECU talk was on the reasons as to why a wastegate is usually not used or present in VGT turbo.

( the most simple explanation)

brraj · 26th March 2009, 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashthedivx

but does it means Elantra is a true performance car which can get atleast 40-50% boost of it original capability just with a Pete Box, A free-flow Air Filter and a Racedynamic ECU ??

Racedynamic ECU is a replacement for petes box and yes petes box is for sale

.

In the list you missed boost controller.

Regarding performance, should check with RD karthik while tuning.

ashthedivx · 26th March 2009, 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by brraj

Racedynamic ECU is a replacement for petes box and yes petes box is for sale

.

In the list you missed boost controller.

Regarding performance, should check with RD karthik while tuning.

Thanks for replying, will wait for your reports with Racedynamic ECU

26th March 2009, 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashthedivx

but does it means Elantra is a true performance car which can get atleast 40-50% boost of it original capability just with a Pete Box, A free-flow Air Filter and a Racedynamic ECU ??

Pretty much any medium-large capacity common rail diesel will give astounding gains with very basic mods. The elantra diesel is such a great base to start from.
In this elantra's case-
air filter, tuning box,de-cat,boost controller, bigger intercooler. The car is being hit from pretty much every angle there is

I'm just hoping the mad elantra uncles eventually add a methanol water injection kit, It'll be nice to have someone try it out

@brraj-Wont the RD ECU need custom tuning in order to take advantage of all the new hardware thats gone in? Will karthik be doing that for you?
Is there a pyrometer planned? What are the intake air temps doing after the boost controller?
I love this thread.

Psycho · 26th March 2009, 13:16

There is one "basic" mod that has not been discussed as yet and I am quite amused that no one has thought of it yet. (No am not going to answer anyone on this, might be good fun to see the possible list before I let out.)

brraj · 26th March 2009, 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdkarthik

As a standard option , no.. But if it is for your custom needs, then yes.

By seeing these statements he should be able to give me custom maps for my particular needs anyway i am installing the ECU tomorrow so lets wait and watch.

Should wait for the meters due to budget constraints.

Hope my wife is not watching this.

prabhuav · 26th March 2009, 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho

There is one "basic" mod that has not been discussed as yet and I am quite amused that no one has thought of it yet. (No am not going to answer anyone on this, might be good fun to see the possible list before I let out.)

you talking lpg here keshav??? I wanna pilot it on something small before I try it here

26th March 2009, 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho

There is one "basic" mod that has not been discussed as yet and I am quite amused that no one has thought of it yet. (No am not going to answer anyone on this, might be good fun to see the possible list before I let out.)

Awww, come on! Good fun for you maybe,not for me- I'm a huge fan of instant gratification.

Weight reduction?
Blocking off the exhaust gas recirculation?
getting rid of the stock muffler?
The elantra already has a CAI as stock, so cant be that!

@prabhuav-LPG, a basic mod?

brraj · 26th March 2009, 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho

There is one "basic" mod that has not been discussed as yet and I am quite amused that no one has thought of it yet. (No am not going to answer anyone on this, might be good fun to see the possible list before I let out.)

Now this is how GURUS will try to play around with kids like us

.

mclaren1885 · 26th March 2009, 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho

There is one "basic" mod that has not been discussed as yet and I am quite amused that no one has thought of it yet. (No am not going to answer anyone on this, might be good fun to see the possible list before I let out.)

EGR? Better CAI? Clutch? Gearing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by brraaaaaj

Now this is how GURUS will try to play around with kids like us

.

Its called tuners secrets. Almost all tuners talk in the same tongue these days

.

Psycho · 26th March 2009, 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by prabhuav

you talking lpg here keshav??? I wanna pilot it on something small before I try it here

Not LPG it is not a basic mod

Quote:

Originally Posted by rippergeo

Weight reduction?
Blocking off the exhaust gas recirculation?
getting rid of the stock muffler?
The elantra already has a CAI as stock, so cant be that!

Not Important for a daily drive
would be a little helpful
Least Important
You answered that

Quote:

Originally Posted by prabhuav

you talking lpg here keshav??? I wanna pilot it on something small before I try it here

Not LPG it is not a basic mod

Quote:

Originally Posted by brraj

Now this is how GURUS will try to play around with kids like us.

I am no guru here and can only help. Brought that up to get some more ideas flowing but what I was pointing to was better flow (increased) of air. Boost is one method but there are more methods to get even more

Better Plumbing
Better Manifolds
Porting Polishing
Better Exhaust

The point I was referring to is one of the points above.

25th March 2009, 21:11	#46
sameel BHPian Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: cochin Posts: 268 Thanked: 3 Times	yes psycho you are right! what i meant is in a cost conscious market like ?india i dont think the VTG units in scorpio and the dicor and likes ( verna am not sure since its a hyundai international market design not india specific) there would be litlle chance that a wastegate is indeed present. i havent broken apart a turbo assembly and done the analysis . if you have any info please do share the EGR is there cause its needed for meeting the euro 4 emission needs. the VTG also have another problem temperature resistance. in petrol vehhicles it wont be that easy to install one. since exhaust is more hotter compared to diesel. special grade materials should have to be used for making one. ( the order of efficiency is FGT < VGT< Bi turbo < bi VGT ) the diesels are not usually given two stage turbo since there is lilittle RPM range. whereas petrols with there arger rev range benefit greatly from a Bi-turbo unit. but yes i am pretty sure a greddy boost controlller wont be able to change the boost in a VGT equipped car its much more complicated. the design that is. i have done wrk on the E class Bi VGT unit. there is this Governer logic that has to be chosed based on two inputs. actually the difference of the two inputs is given as the output to the Governer logic switcher. and yes the two inputs comes from the ECU. therefore here though there will be a boost controller internal to the vehicle. that is turbo or vehicle specific( mainly to safeguard the turbo from overboostinf and going to dangerous rpm level) the whole thing works in closed loop control with ECU. based on the driver demand from the ETS block the ECU decides on the control algorithm of the VGT. whereas in the FGT there is only one boosting possible. till the turbo spools up one has to wait! hehe. its not a simple thing as FGT cheers sameel
	() Thanks

25th March 2009, 22:37	#47
vikram_d Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Bangalore Posts: 2,427 Thanked: 1,185 Times	Sameel - You don't need to break open a turbo to figure out whether it has a waste gate or not.
	() Thanks

25th March 2009, 23:44	#48
sameel BHPian Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: cochin Posts: 268 Thanked: 3 Times	yes thats right i havent yet bothered. to look under the hood if the verna VGT unit has got a wastegate or not.? thats all. it doesnt make a difference to me. my racing days are almost over.. please let me know if indeed the VGT unit in the verna or scorpio has an internal wastegate? its mostly going to be a nozzle that will be doing the same function of a wastegate. hence the difference in sounds when you hear to the whistling sound of a normal turbo to a VGT one. the turbo units in diesels work in a principle of EGR and VGT.( the latest generation VGT cars) [ FGT vehicles also it] the EGR decides the mass of the air flow into intake manifold and the VGT decides the intake manifold pressure. so when we ask the ECU to increase the boost(floor the pedal that is lol) there should be maximum air to inject the fuel required( keeping the air to fuel ratio within tolerance range) the EGR will be almost turned off or control logic to EGR will be around 20-30% input level. these calculations are made from a preset look up table ( map) with different outputsfor different engine speed and load. together with fueling rate. in indian cars( most probably) the EGR and VGT are controlled indepededntly. two closed loop systems are used. a combined logic will require additional hardware. which will be cost constraint.( but yes better control is guaranteed) the probelm with VGT is that these systems the new ones. ( very old ones use pressure type actuated ( homologous to a wastegate ) boost control) the new ones use the P-I-D controllers. the calculation is a mess! in simple terms the airmass and intake boost are looked up from a map for the given engine speed and load. and the PID controll will varyt the EGR and VGT to make the difference between referenced airmass and intake manifold pressure , and actual airmass and intake manifold pressure to be minimum!!. feeling pretty sleepy. cheers sameel
	() Thanks

26th March 2009, 08:58	#50
sameel BHPian Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: cochin Posts: 268 Thanked: 3 Times	the ECU talk was on the reasons as to why a wastegate is usually not used or present in VGT turbo. ( the most simple explanation)
	() Thanks

26th March 2009, 13:16	#54
Psycho Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,043 Thanked: 110 Times View My Garage	There is one "basic" mod that has not been discussed as yet and I am quite amused that no one has thought of it yet. (No am not going to answer anyone on this, might be good fun to see the possible list before I let out.)
	() Thanks