ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

[DieselFan]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

If I may ask, in how many months have those 5 changes occurred? Also, was the 1k change as per manufacturer recommendations?

This is over 30 months (1k after 1 month, 10 k after 7 months, 20 k after 15 months, 30 k after 22 months and 40k after 30 months) on an average every 8 months except for first 2 oil changes. But the fact is I did oil changes as per manufacturer's recommendation only and have not had any problems so far with current car or my previous car.

[greenhorn]

btw, people say that even if synth oils are used, one has to stick to the manufacturer intervals.
At least tata mentions that the drain period can be increased if synth or better oils are used
Tata Motors Customer Care :: Recommended Products
Regarding higher grade lubricants

With the use of SL / SM grade lubricants, the Oil Drain period can be extended to 15000 kms.

and Synth

15000 kms or 1 year whichever is earlier trials are on to extend this drain interval and are expected to be completed shortly. We shall update the same when the trials are complete.

[Sawyer]

Before I respond, is the 1k change a manufacturer recommendation? Which is this maker? It is a rare thing to do, hence the interest.

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

Before I respond, is the 1k change a manufacturer recommendation? Which is this maker? It is a rare thing to do, hence the interest.

Maruti stipulates a mandatory oil change during the first service (1 month/1000 KM). I have just completed the first service of my Alto, found out they have filled ornery servo oil in the guise of MGO and am contemplating to replace it with a good brand mineral oil. I just want to know why not as well use a semi synth instead (full synth is outside my budget now), and the cons if any.

[Sawyer]

@gansan - ok thanks, I haven't bought a Maruti car for some time - neither Hyundai, GMI, or HM have this 1k oil change as a recommendation, which I override to be on the safer side. Good to see that Maruti enforces the change.
In your place, I would go ahead and put in any good brand oil that meets/exceeds the Maruti spec and meets your budget, if you were to change it every six months, even if the corresponding kms have not been run. If you see the numbers that Dieselfan has put up, you will see that his running is such that he covers the recommended kms in 7-8 months, and therefore meets both criteria for change. The question is, what would he have done if it took him 12 months to go from 1k to 10k? In his place, I would have most certainly not waited for 12 months, but changed the oil at 6 months.
Or what would he have done if Maruti had not recommended a change at 1k like the others - in his place, I would have still changed the oil.
So, to your question, if you want to use a semisynth at this time, from an engineering perspective, there are no cons. As long as you have the money to keep using it every 6 months. If not, you are better off using the cheapest oil that meets the Maruti spec, and change it every 6 months!

[DieselFan]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

Before I respond, is the 1k change a manufacturer recommendation? Which is this maker? It is a rare thing to do, hence the interest.

No this isn't rare Major manufacturer in india - Maruti recommends 1k km oil change. This is to remove all the burrs (steel microparticles) that are removed by the oil during the initial run of the engine.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by DieselFan

No this isn't rare Major manufacturer in india - Maruti recommends 1k km oil change. This is to remove all the burrs (steel microparticles) that are removed by the oil during the initial run of the engine.

So why do you think that Hyundai India does not recommend it? Having supplied both machine tools and cutting tools to both their engine lines, and seen their machining environments at close quarters, I can assure you that Maruti's engine making plant/processes are just as good ( or bad ) as those of Hyundai in Chennai.
Maruti is probably playing safe, which is exactly what I will do when I change the oil at 1000k on my new i 20 - even where the manual recommends 10k for the first change.
I wonder if the 1k change recommendation continues for the petrol Ritz, considering that it must be coming from a new engine line. Regardless, if I had bought the car, I would still change at 1k!

[sandeep108]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

@gansan - ok thanks, I haven't bought a Maruti car for some time - neither Hyundai, GMI, or HM have this 1k oil change as a recommendation, which I override to be on the safer side. Good to see that Maruti enforces the change.

I would not override manufacturer specs / instructions. They know their engineering. If they recommend first change at 1k, follow it. If they recommend first change at 5k follow it. In many modern cars, special additives are used in the original engine oil fill from the factory which are essential to be used for certain kms/time, to allow the engine to set in properly. Changing out this oil with ordinary, even synth, obviously is not proper.

My car A.S.S. did not change my first engine oil for 1 year, since my kms were low.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by sandeep108

In many modern cars, special additives are used in the original engine oil fill from the factory which are essential to be used for certain kms/time, to allow the engine to set in properly. Changing out this oil with ordinary, even synth, obviously is not proper.

This special additives statement is a myth AFAIK. I have spent time on a few engine build and test lines and I have not seen it happen anywhere, this filling of special additives to the oil to help the engine set in. Do you know the name of a company that does this today? I would be very interested in knowing.

[sgiitk]

Modern engines are made with materials to tolerances which obviate the 1000km change. I suspect this figure may be a historical note, or may be the old 800 engine (and its 4/3 derivatives) are still old fashioned. If I remember the next change is at 5000km. So you should be able to live with the API-SC junk for that long without serious damage.

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

Modern engines are made with materials to tolerances which obviate the 1000km change. I suspect this figure may be a historical note, or may be the old 800 engine (and its 4/3 derivatives) are still old fashioned. If I remember the next change is at 5000km. So you should be able to live with the API-SC junk for that long without serious damage.

Sir,
The next change is recommended at the third free service (10,000 KM / I year) even for this oil! I have a couple of long drives planned in the next few months,and don't want to take chances.

[sandeep108]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

This special additives statement is a myth AFAIK. I have spent time on a few engine build and test lines and I have not seen it happen anywhere, this filling of special additives to the oil to help the engine set in. Do you know the name of a company that does this today? I would be very interested in knowing.

Do a google search. More specifically Honda Civic manual also states this, if I am not mistaken.

First Oil Change - Honda Car Forum - Accord Parts Civic Tuning Acura Racing

All I am trying to say is it is better for the general car owner to follow the manufacturer's recommendation. It cannot be generalised. If you feel you know better and wish to over ride, please do so.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

So you should be able to live with the API-SC junk for that long without serious damage.

I couldn't help but burst out laughing at the range of beliefs that exist - from junk as first fill here, to special additives in another post!
The 1000k change is made as a one time, play it safe investment in the interest of long engine life. If it is not required, it means that running in care is also not required. Prevailing machining technologies have gone a long way in making this to be almost true. But they are still cutting metal, and some amount of lands and valleys still remain on machined surfaces, that would be too expensive to eliminate on the machine tool. So the final machining still takes place in the actual use of the engine, and this means that some swarf ( not burrs, those are of another age) gets into the oil. Good filtration would address this of course, but the way to be sure that all of the fine stuff that still falls in the oil is eliminated from the system is an oil and filter change. As soon as running in is over, at around 1000kms. Assuming of course that the running in has been done in a manner that allows for this final polish to happen, at a range of speeds, which means that just babying the engine at low rpms is not going to do it. As long as engines are made from machined components from metal parts, I will always recommend good running in practice, and this includes the 1000km oil change. 30 years ago, the recommendation would have been a change at 500kms, and another at 2500kms, as part of a 2500-3000km running in regime. That's when there may even have been burrs!

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by gpa

You'll often see claims such as everyone falls into the severe service category, but these claims are untrue (follow the money and see who's making these claims) .

If you mostly do highway driving in moderate weather you will not fall into the severe service category.

Many people just like to play it safe and follow the severe service schedule, which is fine, but IMHO there is no benefit in changing the oil sooner than the service schedule states.

I am a little puzzled by these statements.
You just pointed out an instance in which it is correctly not severe service, after saying that everyone falls into severe service! Actually, the instance you pointed out can be significantly expanded to people that live in the larger cities and commute long distances, where the engines are running for 45-60 minutes, once turned on. I wouldn't call that severe service, unless of course they are in crawling traffic all the time where the engine is never running at reasonable rpms.
And I did not get the follow the money comment, unless you are alluding to a conspiracy between the oilcos and the autocos? Are they even smart enough to do this, assuming they could do so? Or are you referring to something else?
Finally, your opinion is that there is no benefit in changing it earlier that stated in the schedule. But at the same time, are you questioning the integrity of what is stated in the schedule? Or are you saying that take the normal change recommendations in the manual at face value, but do not do that for the severe service condition description?
Or have I completely missed the point?

[DieselFan]

Originally Posted by sandeep108

Do a google search. More specifically Honda Civic manual also states this, if I am not mistaken.

First Oil Change - Honda Car Forum - Accord Parts Civic Tuning Acura Racing

All I am trying to say is it is better for the general car owner to follow the manufacturer's recommendation. It cannot be generalised. If you feel you know better and wish to over ride, please do so.

This is a perfect example of why one needs to follow Manufacturer's recommendation. If in doubt follow what the car maker says. You can't go wrong. As they are the designers of this car.

Sawyer - why hyundai is not recommending 1K km oil change ask them not me. Break in of engine was existing in the past and still exists, maybe the oil they fill in at the factory can take all the muck generated during the first 1K km run.