ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

I always had this doubt, how would they determine if we change oil at x k kms?

What if we can provide bills from a non authorized workshop? will they accept it??!

Work done at an unauthorised workshop will definitely void the warranty.

Best to take the oil to a 'friendly' authorised service centre and have it changed whilst the car is undergoing routine maintenance. That way they note the mileage plus the fact the oil was changed.

I have had a tough time convinicing the local Honda dealer to change my OHC Type II engine oil with an oil of my choice. He initially refused but agreed subsequently. Of course the warranty had expired but that didnt stop him. But he eventually agreed after a little convincing.

Being friendly with the workshop manager and technicians makes them more cooperative and sometimes even results in better quality work being done. I have also seen them being more helpful to folks who are passionate about their cars.

Rgds,

[Raccoon]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

They did have me fooled. I looked around and what I picked up from Malaysia sums it up nicely

Castrol Magnatec, a part synthetic engine oil, is a breakthrough in engine oil technology. With normal engine oils 70% of wear occurs during start — up and warm — up because the traditional anti — wear additives are too cold to function effectively. Castrol Magnatec is Unique Molecular Attraction (UMA) chemistry provides a complete and continuous film of protection during start — up and warm — up and dramatically reduces start — up and warm — up wear. Castrol Magnatec provides protection from the moment you turn the key.

It is part synthetic. In fact full synth is produced by first cracking Normal Oil and then resynthesising and combining to produce the exact blend required. In a semi-synth compunents are added to mineral oil to 'improve' the specs. Also, I am told that a Hyrdo cracked (whatever that emans) oil can be called semi-synth! As for the rest it it just marketing hype.

Errr... no! A true fully synth is not "produced by first cracking Normal Oil...". And Hydrocracked oil can actually be labelled as fully synthetic when its not! And its pretty likely this is what most here are using... thinking they are using a sexy fully synthetic...

As for that claim by Castrol Magnatec regarding protection at start up... I really wonder if its even a valid claim. Never come across any tests regarding its validity... on the contrary, there is data to suggest that it protects about as much as any good, similarly rated oil. It is likely that whatever benifit it has is due to its ester content. But just look at the marketing hype in how they describe it above!

[sgiitk]

@Raccoon: I cannot agree more that at the end of the day it is the specs (more specifically the API rating which matters). Only issue hare is that both semi- and full synths are API-SM. So one has to use ones judgement. I was quite surprised to see that Mach5 is a Mineral, since by the API-SM rating I thought it must be a semi-synth. I have it on good authority that the normal way of making a synth is to 'crack' heavier hydrocarbons and then resynthesise!

[Gansan]

My take on the warranty issue.

The service adviser at MASS said customer can bring his own oil and get it changed by them, as long as the oil meets/exceeds the MGO specs. He had a chart with him on which it was mentioned what make/ SAE grade/ API spec must be be used for each model. To be sure it specifies the MGO of Servo/BP/Castrol/Shell, but any brand that matches/exceeds the specs can be used. Also the specs should conform with/exceed those mentioned in the relevant page of the owners manual. The change must be made at the MASS, the info goes in to the system and can be viewed at any other MASS countrywide. They also record that the oil was brought by the customer. If all these conditions are met, warranty can't be voided. But since the purity of the oil is the responsibility of the customer, it is prudent to double check the source, and preserve the sale invoice of the oil carefully for future use. To my knowledge spurious oil is more probable in a popular brand such as Castrol, so I chose the less prominent Shell, and bought it from the Shell station by paying MRP.

The other way will be to carry out the mandatory service & oil change at MASS, then proceed straight to a friendly neighborhood workshop with the oil of your choice and get it changed immediately. This will cost more,naturally!

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

EDIT: Went back couple of pages and wow got a great debate going in here, i havent been visiting this thread often these days!

Isnt that great, that after so many pages on this subject we can still!
You can take over the baton from me now, if you want. I am dropping it regardless!

[abhik]

Thanks for the prompt replies guys, i was thinking the same but just got confused when i came across an article. Neways, saw Motul advertising on a website, 15W40 and 05W40 as Fully Synthetic Oils for bikes so again i am in two minds. That would either mean 05W40 is formulated for bikes running dry-multiplate clutches(mostly superbikes) and 15W40 is again formulated for bikes running wet-multiplates in which oil used is common for GB and engine. Any other brand suggestion for bike, offering fully syn formulated for bikes running wet-multiplate clutches?

PS: Sorry to interrupt the ongoing discussion.

[Raccoon]

^^^ AFAIK, the only other available so-called (maybe...) fully synthetic options are Petronas and Castrol (CP1R). But neither of them are comparable to Motul which is technically the best. Petronas scores in terms of price though.

[Jaggu]

Go with Motul for bikes, they are the best available here.

[DocG]

I'd like to add my 2 bits in again.

Jaggu I do understand the angle of friendship. I do network well with the guys at the A.S.S whichever brand it may be. That being said, there are times where the rules are set in stone. Every action has a little fine print, it will be considered as work done under the insistence of a customer and the warranty being void.

Dealerships earn good money from doing simple things like oil changes etc. Honda endorses mineral oils with a recommended change period of 5K KM or 6 months. Most owners get their oil changed at the A.S.S.

Also trust me on this, the dealer friend or not might do what you want and keep warranty, but can easily raise his/her hands if ever some problem arises.

In the US, manufacturers respect warranty as long as you can show bills and proper documentation of regular maintainance even if DIY. In India the dealers would be at a huge loss since they can't rely on labour as a major source of income, so I doubt this system will come in the near future.

@sgiitk
Sir, my cars in the US have recommended oil change intervals on 10,000 Miles. Yes they run on synthetic of course, but that's 16,093 KM so yeah. But then again driving there is not stop-start and distances travelled are not small at all. So the engine is never really stressed. This distance however is around 2-3 months driving for the average American.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by DocG

Honda endorses mineral oils with a recommended change period of 5K KM or 6 months. Most owners get their oil changed at the A.S.S.


@sgiitk
Sir, my cars in the US have recommended oil change intervals on 10,000 Miles. Yes they run on synthetic of course, but that's 16,093 KM so yeah. But then again driving there is not stop-start and distances travelled are not small at all. So the engine is never really stressed. This distance however is around 2-3 months driving for the average American.

Couldn't resist jumping in, because this supports exactly the that I have been doing for the last ten days here. Honda is considered to be one of the top engine makers of the world, and I would be very surprised if they make the 5k recommendation in the US, for the same engines ( Made in Japan) that they sell there and here. People would have to change the oil every month, and no one would buy Hondas! The answer to the why is also an answer to where synthetics really score, contained in the second para above. The engine is never really stressed and the extended drain of the synthetics would come into full play. With those distances, one runs up km at a very rapid rate, and long before the 6 months expired, the extended range in kms would. Making the synth a value for money and convenience product, because a mineral would probably have you go to change your oil every 45-60 days. The other place where synths rule are in the race cars, where engines are running at five digit rpm ranges all the time.
In most Indian driving conditions, which are high stress stop start ones, an engine would do much better with a good quality mineral changed every 6 months, as compared to one in which a high end synth has been left sitting for 12 months and more, just because the kms have not been racked up.
And just to illustrate the point and not as a recommendation to jump on, if I had a Honda, I would not lose sleep over running more than the 5k, up to about 8k, as long as the 6 months are not up, but I certainly would lose it in taking up 9 months to "use up" the 5k. And if I was running 10k and more in the 6 months, and if I did not have a Honda, I would use a synth and change it every 6 months.
Sounds very complicated, but once you understand the principles, it is not. All that remains is customizing the principle to one's usage pattern and environment.
Finally, all of this is in the interest of the engine purring smoothly without lifting the cylinder head for any maintenance for 150 to 200k. If that is of interest. Typical holding periods of ten years, minimum, and then selling a car with a good engine in it. Not just having the warranty benefits in place, that is a short term thing, compared to what engines are capable of doing if treated right.
The other thing that is stressful to engines is where it is running close to its full power/torque. In India, concerns of economy dictate small capacity engines, and these are then burdened with the AC. Which has to work hard most of the time. In the US, engines run with a lot in reserve for much of the time, and that is less stressful for the engine. Less stress for the engine translates into less contamination of the oil.
So use a synth by all means, just don't allow the high cost of it to deter you from changing it every 6 months. If that be the case, switch to the equivalent spec, but a lot cheaper mineral. Or the so called "semi synth"! Which is nothing but an oilco marketing department pimped up mineral.

[sgiitk]

@Sawyer: I had checked on the US Civic specs. Lo and behold oil change 5000miles/ six months and service every three months.

So something just does not smell right. Toyota is happy with 10,000km / 1 year with service every six months, while Honda reduces the intervals to half. Who is joking?

[Sawyer]

I am surprised, though the Honda recommendation is 8000kms when you convert. Most people in the US would rack that up in 2 months. Maybe a regular car user in the US can shed some light on this. If I did 5000kms a month in the US, with a good synth, I would feel comfortable with an oil change every 15000kms. Let's see if we get any actual user input on this, all I know about the US practice is from casual conversation with my friends when I am there. And reading on the subject.

[gpa]

Originally Posted by Gansan

My take on the warranty issue.

The service adviser at MASS said customer can bring his own oil and get it changed by them, as long as the oil meets/exceeds the MGO specs. He had a chart with him on which it was mentioned what make/ SAE grade/ API spec must be be used for each model. To be sure it specifies the MGO of Servo/BP/Castrol/Shell, but any brand that matches/exceeds the specs can be used.

You are right. My service advisor at my MASS also mentioned that as long as the oil meets/exceedes the specifications, they were willing to change it with no affect on the warranty. He was clear in stating that the purity of the oil will have to be checked by the customer.

I went a step further and asked him which oils (fully synth) he recommends and the first brand he mentioned was Shell followed by Mobil 1. He was not too keen on Castrol as he said that there are a lot of fakes in the market.

[Jaggu]

@docg: as others mentioned, as long as the oil used is better than what dealership provides, the A.S.S will not have any issues. Which i think is a good deal.

Reg Honda, i really dont know if they strictly advice mineral oils. Reason being why did they call and ask if synthetic can be put at 3 times the cost. Yes they mentioned longer drain periods also. So something is not correct somewhere be it India or US.

Anyways i really am not bothered with what dealers say or reg the quirks of Honda, i do what i know is best for my cars. Rest i rely on my negotiation skills.

[tsk1979]

If you have a honda, I would advise do what honda say if you value warranty.
Regaring technical correctness of their recommendations, take it with a bag of salt.
This is the same company which said that they do not introduce diesel engine in India because fuel quality is poor.
BMW/Mercedes/Skoda/Fiat/Tata etc., etc., are currently running the best of their tech on Indian diesel.
Filter tech has advanced to a stage where almost everything can be taken care off.
However honda is still sleeping and giving lame duck excuses.
So if your honda is under warranty, change mineral oil every 5000kms, after warranty you can put in mobil 1 5W50 and take it easy for 10,000kms