ARTICLE: Points to consider before TURBO-Charging your car

viper · 19th October 2006, 13:22

Hi Guys,

Pl check this link out. It gives a much better and more detailed explanation on turbo charging with pictorial descriptions as well.

http://www.cse.uconn.edu/~yelevich/turbo/turbo.html

Hope that has made things easier to understand.

Viper

n_aditya · 19th October 2006, 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by viper

Hi Guys, http://www.cse.uconn.edu/~yelevich/turbo/turbo.html

awesome link for a layman to understand the turbo... good one viper... thanks a ton.

Ford Rocam · 19th October 2006, 16:01

I would like to add some more points to Psychos list
People often go ahead with turbocharging with out having any target HP in mind.you need to set some realistic goals before you plunge in to it, turbocharging is an expensive affair & i have seen many failures and its the customer who suffers the most, time,money, frustration. I have seen people will always tell you to shell out more cash if you want things right, he will try to sell you an X product not because it will improve your performance but it will get him rid of his old stock. you should always take 2nd or 3rd opinion from people whom you trust, r knowledgeable & has no monetary gains.
SO
* Decide your Target HP Level
* Decide your prirorities (will you boost further than 7-8 psi in future or leave at 8.
* Limitations on your engine to handle boost
* Hidden cost invloved in turbocharging
a fact often ignored, you turbo your car it runs great but after some time the clutch starts giving up, your manifold starts leaking,your brakes start fading you need good suspension components for your tyres to stick to road.
* Prepare a budget, i dont know how many of you do, prepare a list of parts which will go in for turbocharging & labour cost involved with it. you know where your money is going.
eg I would break up Turbocharging in three ways
Turbo Components
1) Turbocharger (Size & trim depending upon engine & powerband)
2)Intercooler
3) B.O.V
4) Oil Lines
4) Wastegate (depending upon type of turbo most big turbos are with external wastegate)
5) turbo Manifold
6) Steel Braded Oil Lines for turbo & vaccum lines
7) Turbo piping from turbo to intake manifold with intercooler in between
8) Down pipe with Flex pipes

Engine Components can skip this if intend to boost on stock engine < 8psi
The cost will vary from engine to engine
1) Low Compression Forged Piston with rings & clips
2) Con Rods (check with your tuner but recommend to change that also)
3) Engine Bearings
4) Head Gasket
5) New oil pump (check for uneven wear if suspect then get a new one)
6) Engine Oil

Electronics
1) Stand alone EMS depending from car to car & boost levels most boost which are <8psi can get away with standalone
2) High flow injectors (depending upon power levels target)
3) Wide band oxygen sensor with A.f.R monitor (necessary )
4) 3 bar Map sensor for higher boost
5) Gauges : Boost, EGT, Fuel Oil pressure (oil pressure very important)
6) Boost controller & Turbo Timer
7) F.M.U Fuel management unit basically boost depended regulator will increase fuel pressure depending upon boost.
8) High volume intank fuel pump to support F.M.U
9) M.S.D 6a with good set of wires & irridium plugs

Labour
1) Installation for all the items
2) Tuning & setting it up

Hidden expenses
1) Life of clutch might get reduced (driving style)
2) Brake Pads & Rotors wearing out
3) Engine mounts wearing out fast
4) Stiffer Suspensions
5) Strut Braces
Reliability is very important factor, if its set right you will enjoy years of driving pleasure.

Boom Shiva · 19th October 2006, 17:10

Awesome Rocam!

Great stuff - I think a lot of us think about turbocharging without ever realising just how complex the job really is. The section on hidden costs is also a real eye opener.

viper · 19th October 2006, 17:39

Hey Jitu,

Please edit your post in the Electronics section point 9. It shoul dread upgraded Ignition system, coil, plugs and plug wires.

Also I personally feel the entire Electronics should go onto the Hidden Cost section. As far as Mumbai no one includes that in their quotation and then start saying you need this and that and then without which the turbo will not run properly. The Electronics is one of the 2nd most largest expense in a turbo setup.

Viper

Ford Rocam · 19th October 2006, 18:02

The post was in general to just brief up the details for turboing and costing i didnt went more in to tech details as far as ignition goes.

also if the tuner doesnt includes electronic components in his quotation is not a tuner at all, he is just experimenting on your car & using your money.

porsche_fan · 19th October 2006, 19:43

hey there,

great write up and a handy quick reference document.

Would like to add a few comments,

1.) Since the torque produced by the engine is going to increase, one needs to just confirm whether the gearbox 'll be sufficient or not.
2.) You'd also need to check the end connections from your manifold and need to select a housing that matches the same. Also you need to check if there is a flexible pipe between the turbo outlet and the rest of the exhaust system. This helps in relaxing the thermal loading of the system.
3.) Most important and as has been pointed out before, is to be clear of your objective is. with the turbos available today for petrol engines it is'nt possible to get both good low-end torque and high-end power. To put it simply, its like this; (This mainly applies to internally WG turbos)

There is a performance characteristic that is specified for the turbine housing of any waste gated turbos. this is the A/R value. Simply put, this value determines the amount of flow your turbine can handle.And since our turbine drives the compressor that provides the boost, its very important to select this value carefully. A very small A/R gives you less lag and more low end torque, but will not give you much in terms of high end power. A very large A/R gives you less low-end torque and MASSIVE lag, but it'll help you in achieving that dream HP target.

What you need to do is to get the most accurate engine data (basically the flow capacity) that you can find and then sit and determine the best possible compromise......

Godfather · 21st October 2006, 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr fate

there is a engine i have got type-r,now thats what you want too see and the turbo....better get 2 more set of eyes...its got a dyno reading as well..you better see it.

as always you are welcome to drop by anytime...

Keshav... can those two eyes be mine.... Pleaseeeeee.. also i am curious who is dr fate... hmmm... Just gimme a hint...

nitrous · 21st October 2006, 01:01

Quote:

i am curious who is dr fate... hmmm... Just gimme a hint...

Very little clues.But still, ill try to find out from my side.

The Wolf · 21st October 2006, 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godfather

also i am curious who is dr fate... hmmm... Just gimme a hint...

Hint, my guess: Motorsmiths.

Mugen_Power · 21st October 2006, 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho

- Learn how to slip your clutch. It is almost mandatory for driving turbo cars.

Sorry if

question but let me know how to slip clutch..

Thanks,
Mugen_Power.

dr fate · 21st October 2006, 02:09

perfect,thats the point i wanted to make,every speed freak would want a turbo fittment and quite a few claim that they can pull it of too,
and make no mistake plenty have knowledge too nowadays...but what starts as a enthusiast venture has often ended with a large heartburn because of other things including time factor and lot o small overlooked factors,so i felt with keshavs article leading the way has been relevently and competently been continued by rocam..because theory is one thing but since a lot of people here would be intrested in practice of the above subject i feel all facts better be discussed here people...

keshav and to an extent shreyas is reasonably experienced on practicals...ahem even we had done a black zen and would request both to share their experience(practical)this way we get to ask hardcore questions(real world)over to you keshav.

nitrous · 21st October 2006, 23:54

Quote:

shreyas is reasonably experienced on practicals...ahem even we had done a black zen

I've SCANned this properly now.

Godfather · 22nd October 2006, 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by nitrous

I've SCANned this properly now.

Nope.... i too thought the same.... Spoke to Keshav..he also wants to play along with the guessing game...

Psycho · 23rd October 2006, 11:43

Nice writeup Jitu.. a few additions inline to your headings

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ford Rocam

Turbo Components
1) Silicone Hoses For plumbing
2) Good quality clamps to hold the pressure
3) Oil collector for the breather pipe
4) Good water line if you are using a water cooled turbo (best to have a water cooled turbo if you are looking beyond 8 PSI)
5) Boost linked Fuel Pressure regulator

Engine Components
Above 8 PSI : Please consider
1) Crank in some cases
2) Water Pump
3) Cylinder Brace
4) Better retainers
5) Valve Spring upgrades
6) Manifold sealants to prervent boost leak
7) Timing Belts

need kevlar ones if you cross 18 pSI for reliability

Electronics
5) Gauges : Boost, EGT, Fuel Oil pressure (oil pressure very important)
- Water Temp: most imp as it will show you the changes on the engine almost after the oil pressure.

Labour

Hidden expenses
1) Upgraded Radiator
2) Oil cooler if you are going above 14 PSI

19th October 2006, 13:22	#16
viper BANNED Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Mumbai Posts: 1,772 Thanked: 10 Times	Hi Guys, Pl check this link out. It gives a much better and more detailed explanation on turbo charging with pictorial descriptions as well. http://www.cse.uconn.edu/~yelevich/turbo/turbo.html Hope that has made things easier to understand. Viper
	() Thanks

19th October 2006, 16:01	#18
Ford Rocam BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Mumbai-India Posts: 879 Thanked: 16 Times	I would like to add some more points to Psychos list People often go ahead with turbocharging with out having any target HP in mind.you need to set some realistic goals before you plunge in to it, turbocharging is an expensive affair & i have seen many failures and its the customer who suffers the most, time,money, frustration. I have seen people will always tell you to shell out more cash if you want things right, he will try to sell you an X product not because it will improve your performance but it will get him rid of his old stock. you should always take 2nd or 3rd opinion from people whom you trust, r knowledgeable & has no monetary gains. SO * Decide your Target HP Level * Decide your prirorities (will you boost further than 7-8 psi in future or leave at 8. * Limitations on your engine to handle boost * Hidden cost invloved in turbocharging a fact often ignored, you turbo your car it runs great but after some time the clutch starts giving up, your manifold starts leaking,your brakes start fading you need good suspension components for your tyres to stick to road. * Prepare a budget, i dont know how many of you do, prepare a list of parts which will go in for turbocharging & labour cost involved with it. you know where your money is going. eg I would break up Turbocharging in three ways Turbo Components 1) Turbocharger (Size & trim depending upon engine & powerband) 2)Intercooler 3) B.O.V 4) Oil Lines 4) Wastegate (depending upon type of turbo most big turbos are with external wastegate) 5) turbo Manifold 6) Steel Braded Oil Lines for turbo & vaccum lines 7) Turbo piping from turbo to intake manifold with intercooler in between 8) Down pipe with Flex pipes Engine Components can skip this if intend to boost on stock engine < 8psi The cost will vary from engine to engine 1) Low Compression Forged Piston with rings & clips 2) Con Rods (check with your tuner but recommend to change that also) 3) Engine Bearings 4) Head Gasket 5) New oil pump (check for uneven wear if suspect then get a new one) 6) Engine Oil Electronics 1) Stand alone EMS depending from car to car & boost levels most boost which are <8psi can get away with standalone 2) High flow injectors (depending upon power levels target) 3) Wide band oxygen sensor with A.f.R monitor (necessary ) 4) 3 bar Map sensor for higher boost 5) Gauges : Boost, EGT, Fuel Oil pressure (oil pressure very important) 6) Boost controller & Turbo Timer 7) F.M.U Fuel management unit basically boost depended regulator will increase fuel pressure depending upon boost. 8) High volume intank fuel pump to support F.M.U 9) M.S.D 6a with good set of wires & irridium plugs Labour 1) Installation for all the items 2) Tuning & setting it up Hidden expenses 1) Life of clutch might get reduced (driving style) 2) Brake Pads & Rotors wearing out 3) Engine mounts wearing out fast 4) Stiffer Suspensions 5) Strut Braces Reliability is very important factor, if its set right you will enjoy years of driving pleasure.
	() Thanks

19th October 2006, 17:10	#19
Boom Shiva BANNED Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Mumbai Posts: 1,054 Thanked: 12 Times	Awesome Rocam! Great stuff - I think a lot of us think about turbocharging without ever realising just how complex the job really is. The section on hidden costs is also a real eye opener.
	() Thanks

19th October 2006, 17:39	#20
viper BANNED Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Mumbai Posts: 1,772 Thanked: 10 Times	Hey Jitu, Please edit your post in the Electronics section point 9. It shoul dread upgraded Ignition system, coil, plugs and plug wires. Also I personally feel the entire Electronics should go onto the Hidden Cost section. As far as Mumbai no one includes that in their quotation and then start saying you need this and that and then without which the turbo will not run properly. The Electronics is one of the 2nd most largest expense in a turbo setup. Viper
	() Thanks

19th October 2006, 18:02	#21
Ford Rocam BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Mumbai-India Posts: 879 Thanked: 16 Times	The post was in general to just brief up the details for turboing and costing i didnt went more in to tech details as far as ignition goes. also if the tuner doesnt includes electronic components in his quotation is not a tuner at all, he is just experimenting on your car & using your money. Last edited by Ford Rocam : 19th October 2006 at 18:04.
	() Thanks

19th October 2006, 19:43	#22
porsche_fan BHPian Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Epinal,France Posts: 83 Thanked: 4 Times	hey there, great write up and a handy quick reference document. Would like to add a few comments, 1.) Since the torque produced by the engine is going to increase, one needs to just confirm whether the gearbox 'll be sufficient or not. 2.) You'd also need to check the end connections from your manifold and need to select a housing that matches the same. Also you need to check if there is a flexible pipe between the turbo outlet and the rest of the exhaust system. This helps in relaxing the thermal loading of the system. 3.) Most important and as has been pointed out before, is to be clear of your objective is. with the turbos available today for petrol engines it is'nt possible to get both good low-end torque and high-end power. To put it simply, its like this; (This mainly applies to internally WG turbos) There is a performance characteristic that is specified for the turbine housing of any waste gated turbos. this is the A/R value. Simply put, this value determines the amount of flow your turbine can handle.And since our turbine drives the compressor that provides the boost, its very important to select this value carefully. A very small A/R gives you less lag and more low end torque, but will not give you much in terms of high end power. A very large A/R gives you less low-end torque and MASSIVE lag, but it'll help you in achieving that dream HP target. What you need to do is to get the most accurate engine data (basically the flow capacity) that you can find and then sit and determine the best possible compromise......
	() Thanks

21st October 2006, 02:09	#27
dr fate BHPian Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: bangalore Posts: 78 Thanked: Once	perfect,thats the point i wanted to make,every speed freak would want a turbo fittment and quite a few claim that they can pull it of too, and make no mistake plenty have knowledge too nowadays...but what starts as a enthusiast venture has often ended with a large heartburn because of other things including time factor and lot o small overlooked factors,so i felt with keshavs article leading the way has been relevently and competently been continued by rocam..because theory is one thing but since a lot of people here would be intrested in practice of the above subject i feel all facts better be discussed here people... keshav and to an extent shreyas is reasonably experienced on practicals...ahem even we had done a black zen and would request both to share their experience(practical)this way we get to ask hardcore questions(real world)over to you keshav. Last edited by dr fate : 21st October 2006 at 02:20.
	() Thanks

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