[mithunvvijayan]

Originally Posted by ebonho

That's not what I said, nor what I asked.

I asked you "what is a tourer?" Can you answer that for me?

The Adventure edition,that may brands offer, is a good template for tourer.

[quote=ebonho;3566031]

Wow! You've picked possibly the worst seat in the RE stable as an example of a comfortable seat. Yes, I owned a C5 too, rode it for 3000 uninspiring kms before jumping at the first good offer that came my way, and me and my biker buddy from Australia (also a veteran biker, who owns a number of big superbikes back home in Melbourne) were unanimous that this was a horrendous seat, which was neither comfortable nore gave you any feel or control for hard riding.

When I was comparing the 390's seat to that of Bullets, I was speaking about the proper stepped saddles that have been duty on Bullets for decades now, and which have always been considered to be the most Indian bum-friendly saddles traditionally.

The seat of the Dukes is better. I have no doubt about it.
/QUOTE]

I think I will have to agree to disagree on that.

Originally Posted by ebonho

Seriously?

Why not? I think they are. Again agreeing to dis)

Originally Posted by ebonho

Bums are individual and unique and no two bums are alike, but for every 390 rider that has found it necessary to pad his stock seat, I will show you 100 if not a thousand who have not. Simply go to any KTM service center and see how many Dukes come in with padded seats. Don't take my word for it.

I also haven't modified, nor am intending to. That doesn't mean they are very comfortable. And the stock seats look very good.

Originally Posted by ebonho

It is neither an irritant nor is anyone asking you not to get technical. Only pointing out that theory and practice / reality need not always agree.

Case in point being the torque discussion. The holy grail of Harley and Bullet boys. Till they get outpulled and outclimbed that is ......

Point taken, but again, I find bottom end torque really comfortable. Even if there is a chance of being out pulled or outclassed. And if I had a budget of above 5 lakhs, then I would definitely go for a Harley.

Originally Posted by ebonho

Not when you list the Metzeler provided OE as a drawback.

Hey come on, Doc. I said that they might wear out more, if ridden on rugged surfaces. Since Metzlers are costly, it's better to conserve them by using some other tyres while going for long distance rides.

Originally Posted by ebonho

What is a cruiser? You need to first help me with that.

By definition to "cruise" is to "travel smoothly at a moderate or economical speed."

That's around 130 or thereabouts for a 390. You can do that all day.

A cruiser bike, again in my opinion, should have the following characteristics.

1. It should have very comfy saddles, pliant suspension , seating position which reduces fatigue, a long stroke, large capacity engine, with good bottom end torque, nice long wind shield, large capacity tank, long wheel base etc

2. It must be good for long distance cruising at consistent speeds.

I think the keyword is comfortable. I don't find 390 a good cruiser, because it doesn't have the first point.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by mithunvvijayan

The Adventure edition,that may brands offer, is a good template for tourer.

I did in my earlier post request "Let's talk India."

Why not? I think they are. Again agreeing to dis)

Because your Activa (like other scooters) is designed to swallow up a full face helmet under it. Bike seats do not do that.

The Avenger again is a variant of the TBird seat. Personally, I have always found the standard Bullet seats better than the TBird ones.

I also haven't modified, nor am intending to. That doesn't mean they are very comfortable. And the stock seats look very good.

Maybe you need to ride your Duke long distance to appreciate what I (and many Duke owners and riders) are talking about and have realised.

Point taken, but again, I find bottom end torque really comfortable. Even if there is a chance of being out pulled or outclassed.

What bottom end torque are you talking about? I am telling you a Duke 200 outpulls a modded Bullet 500 FROM REST. That there is bottom end torque.

I am telling you a Duke 200 outclimbs EASILY modded Bullet 500s in the ghats. INCLUDING out of switchbacks. That there is bottom end torque.

Caveat: I do not know if a Duke 200 can do the same two up against the same modded Bullet 500s two up. But then, I always ride alone. So that comparison would be largely academic for me.

And if I had a budget of above 5 lakhs, then I would definitely go for a Harley.

Ok.

Hey come on, Doc. I said that they might wear out more, if ridden on rugged surfaces. Since Metzlers are costly, it's better to conserve them by using some other tyres while going for long distance rides.

The company did not make you sign a waiver saying you could not replace the tyres they gave you with the bike. Did they?

You are geting tyres that bikes 4 times the price sometimes get. The harley that's twice the price of the Duke gets MRF's!!!! How can you complain? Or even crib?

A cruiser bike, again in my opinion, should have the following characteristics.

1. It should have very comfy saddles, pliant suspension , seating position which reduces fatigue, a long stroke, large capacity engine, with good bottom end torque, nice long wind shield, large capacity tank, long wheel base etc

2. It must be good for long distance cruising at consistent speeds.

I think the keyword is comfortable. I don't find 390 a good cruiser, because it doesn't have the first point.

You want a docile sofa on two wheels with a motor underneath and a perspex windsail in front.

The 390 is never going to be the above.

If you wanted the above, you should have never bought the 390.

There is no middle ground here. Really!

[shan_ned]

Originally Posted by ebonho

The easiest thing to do for Ladakh is fashion carriers that can carry 5 liter jerry cans on each side.
===========
Here are two 10 liter ones a dear friend sent me from Dubai. (waiting for dear friend to call me ..... )

Thanks Doc !!! Informative for me The cans in the photos look pretty good. To me, the biggest concern is fuelling at unknown fuel pumps.

So do you always carry them for any long distance touring (I mean 400-500kms and above in a day) ?

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by shan_ned

Thanks Doc !!! Informative for me The cans in the photos look pretty good. To me, the biggest concern is fuelling at unknown fuel pumps.

So do you always carry them for any long distance touring (I mean 400-500kms and above in a day) ?

Nope. I just got these. Except for the mountains, and only in some sectors, there is really no place in India where you would need to carry enough fuel for 400-500 kms.

[mithunvvijayan]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Maybe you need to ride your Duke long distance to appreciate what I (and many Duke owners and riders) are talking about and have realised.

Agreed. I rode 300 kms in a single stretch once. My observations were based on that. After my first service I am planning a 1000km ride. So hope that I will find the seat better.

Originally Posted by ebonho

What bottom end torque are you talking about? I am telling you a Duke 200 outpulls a modded Bullet 500 FROM REST. That there is bottom end torque.

I am telling you a Duke 200 outclimbs EASILY modded Bullet 500s in the ghats. INCLUDING out of switchbacks. That there is bottom end torque.

Caveat: I do not know if a Duke 200 can do the same two up against the same modded Bullet 500s two up. But then, I always ride alone. So that comparison would be largely academic for me.

Why are we even comparing bullets here. Recent bullets, with their low weight crack shafts always jerk on the top gear below 50kmph. Let's talk about Honda unicorn for instance. It pulls cleanly from below 1000 rpm. The 390 has the lower rpm set at 1500 odd for 2013 models and about 1800 for 2014 models. Why?

Originally Posted by ebonho

The company did not make you sign a waiver saying you could not replace the tyres they gave you with the bike. Did they?

You are geting tyres that bikes 4 times the price sometimes get. The harley that's twice the price of the Duke gets MRF's!!!! How can you complain? Or even crib?

My reply was for some one who put up a post, regarding the touring capabilities of the bike. I posted that long distance rides on rugged surfaces will take a toll n the Metzlers. But that is not the case for me. I don't go long distance touring on my bike. I bought duke 390 over 200 primarily for the extra power, ABS and the Metzlers.

Originally Posted by ebonho

You want a docile sofa on two wheels with a motor underneath and a perspex windsail in front.

The 390 is never going to be the above.

If you wanted the above, you should have never bought the 390.

There is no middle ground here. Really!

Again it was someone else who wanted it!!!! If I ever buy a Harley, I will go for the street 750 or the sportster models. Not the sofa types like soft tail classic. If I go for Triumph, I will go for the Bonneville.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by mithunvvijayan

Why are we even comparing bullets here. Recent bullets, with their low weight crack shafts always jerk on the top gear below 50kmph. Let's talk about Honda unicorn for instance. It pulls cleanly from below 1000 rpm. The 390 has the lower rpm set at 1500 odd for 2013 models and about 1800 for 2014 models. Why?

I am bringing Bullets into the discussion because Bullets have the maximum torque figures for any Indian bike. Definitely in this class and price band.

I am talking Bullets because the Bullet is all that you want the 390 to be - lazy, long stroked, big capacity, relaxed, low rpm.

What if anything does idling rpm have to do with bottom end torque?

A Bullet is the epitome of bottom end torque amongst Indian bikes. And the baby Duke has its number on the road in all in which bottom end torque comes into play.

You say you want bottom end torque. Great. What do you plan to do with that bottom end torque? Rip from standstill or tear up a steep hill road? Or lope along at 20 kmph in top gear, with the engine just above stall speed, and want it to pull cleanly from there without knock or chain snatch?

I posted that long distance rides on rugged surfaces will take a toll on the Metzlers.

It will take its toll on any tyre. More on soft rubbered tyres. The Duke 390 is a street bike shod with pure street tyres. If you want to take it off road, you will need something that at a minimum can go on road and off road as well. A dual purpose tyre. What would you prefer? A 20K discount option on the Duke 390 for those who want to take one with "normal" MRF rubber?

Again it was someone else who wanted it!!!! If I ever buy a Harley, I will go for the street 750 or the sportster models. Not the sofa types like soft tail classic. If I go for Triumph, I will go for the Bonneville.

Ok.

[basuroy]

At no point really from Mithunvvijayan's post did I get the impression that he either wanted his duke to have active like comfort or enfield type engine lugging characteristic(though from current crop , only the 500cc bullet is worth any with its 10.5 ? kg crank , the thunderbird is nothing special in this dept. , also I disagree here as I personally find low rpm lugging better in traffic where one finds themselves constantly modulating speed , on a highway the advantage offered is negligible and the duke is anyday better because of lower vibrations ) . He is merely presenting forward his own impressions about the bike in reference to a question about duke's touring capability and why he feels certain characteristics and features can be limiting be it mentally or by design for the purpose of touring . Switching tires for a week or carrying extra jerry cans are botheration which I guess few if not many wish to avoid , he did purchase the bike so he was literally sold out over the bike's many qualities hence suggesting CBR or enfield to him is not fair in my opinion . Suggest them to the person who asked the question about touring . Also the term touring in general is vague - we have the 1000km ladakh trips and then 200-300km trips to nearby attraction , personally no reason why one cannot or should not undertake the 300km trip on any bike . The 1000km+ trips are more than just bike , they require a different breed of bikers and respect to them all be it on a splendor or duke or enfield or harley .

[mithunvvijayan]

Originally Posted by ebonho

I am bringing Bullets into the discussion because Bullets have the maximum torque figures for any Indian bike. Definitely in this class and price band.

I am talking Bullets because the Bullet is all that you want the 390 to be - lazy, long stroked, big capacity, relaxed, low rpm.

A Bullet is the epitome of bottom end torque amongst Indian bikes. And the baby Duke has its number on the road in all in which bottom end torque comes into play.

The engine of a modern bullet might produce low end torque. But since the crank weight is lighter than the previous models, the low end torque cannot be tapped in the low rpms when compared to the earlier models. This is especially pronounced in the fuel injected 500s as they share the same crank weight with the 350 models. The carburetted standard 500 is supposed to have more crank weight,I am not sure. I have test ridden all the models including the continental GT. They all jerk below 50 kmph in the 5th gear.

That is why modern Bullets cannot be taken into consideration when comparing bottom end torque.

Originally Posted by ebonho

What if anything does idling rpm have to do with bottom end torque?

Idle rpm has everything to do with the available torque. If there is low torque at the bottom, the engine will not have enough pull, the clutch will have to be slipped more. A simple example is the high idle rpm maintained in driving school cars. Why do you think the 2014 models have a higher idle rpm when compared with the 2013 models? I think it has every thing to do with the stalling problem.

Originally Posted by ebonho

You say you want bottom end torque. Great. What do you plan to do with that bottom end torque? Rip from standstill or tear up a steep hill road? Or lope along at 20 kmph in top gear, with the engine just above stall speed, and want it to pull cleanly from there without knock or chain snatch?

I cannot wish for everything in a bike, and I am quite happy with 390, the way it is tuned. The engine pulling at 20kmph without breaking a sweat, may not be possible now, but given the advance of hybrid technology, it will be possible in near future.

Originally Posted by ebonho

It will take its toll on any tyre. More on soft rubbered tyres. The Duke 390 is a street bike shod with pure street tyres. If you want to take it off road, you will need something that at a minimum can go on road and off road as well. A dual purpose tyre. What would you prefer? A 20K discount option on the Duke 390 for those who want to take one with "normal" MRF rubber?

It would be really nice to have another model with dual purpose tyres or a discount with cheaper tyres. I would prefer Metzlers for my purpose of riding, but there might be a few who opt for a dual purpose tyres.

[nasirkaka]

sorry to barge in,

I think a mixture of 390 and classic 500 would work well in this context, and the triumph bonnie comes very very close to it. good low end/ high end speed, good torque, relaxed ergonomics, good seat, larger tank capacity, better alloys, butter smooth engine, comfortable for pillion as well, good handling & braking. They even have metzs.
(confession: i have been convincing my self to sell the bullet and 390 for the bonnie )

Downside being the price and lack of abs. :(

So there still seems good scope for a dedicated touring segment bike keeping the indian riding conditions in mind, priced at around 2.5L. What the hell happened to the 390 adventure version?

[basuroy]

Originally Posted by nasirkaka

sorry to barge in,

I think a mixture of 390 and classic 500 would work well in this context, and the triumph bonnie comes very very close to it. good low end/ high end speed, good torque, relaxed ergonomics, good seat, larger tank capacity, better alloys, butter smooth engine, comfortable for pillion as well, good handling & braking. They even have metzs.
(confession: i have been convincing my self to sell the bullet and 390 for the bonnie )

Downside being the price and lack of abs. :(

So there still seems good scope for a dedicated touring segment bike keeping the indian riding conditions in mind, priced at around 2.5L. What the hell happened to the 390 adventure version?

Bonneville is the ideal bike for many of us including me too , price though is just too high . And after duke 390 , I have promised myself never again a bike without ABS .

Adventure was ruled out recently by someone from KTM management during an RC series related event. RC this year , 2015 or 2016(my guess is '16 , '15 we would have heard some rumors by now) maybe 690 or as someone recently posted on this forum( no reference provided if I recall correctly) , KTM are working on 2 twin cylinder bikes in the capacity of 500 and 790 cc which will replace the single cylinder 690 and they will be manufactured here .

[mithunvvijayan]

Originally Posted by nasirkaka

I think a mixture of 390 and classic 500 would work well in this context, and the triumph bonnie comes very very close to it. good low end/ high end speed, good torque, relaxed ergonomics, good seat, larger tank capacity, better alloys, butter smooth engine, comfortable for pillion as well, good handling & braking. They even have metzs.
(confession: i have been convincing my self to sell the bullet and 390 for the bonnie )

Downside being the price and lack of abs. :(

Lack of ABS in bonnie is a serious concern. Putting aside that, yeah, it is one sweet bike. But it is nowhere near my budget horizon as of now :(

Originally Posted by basuroy

Adventure was ruled out recently by someone from KTM management during an RC series related event. RC this year , 2015 or 2016(my guess is '16 , '15 we would have heard some rumors by now) maybe 690 or as someone recently posted on this forum( no reference provided if I recall correctly) , KTM are working on 2 twin cylinder bikes in the capacity of 500 and 790 cc which will replace the single cylinder 690 and they will be manufactured here .

Even if KTM works on twin cylinder bikes in midrange, I don't think they will lose the KTM DNA. They will always be high strung race machines. And there will be a lot of people salivating over them.

[Urban_Nomad]

Originally Posted by VW2010

What heating issue are you talking about that needed fix in the first place?

Its quite strange that you ask this. IIRC, you are a fellow duke owner and quite active on this thread also.

You do not have to search far to find complaints (especially the first lot) on re-starting an engine showing a high temperature. And thats precisely what I was referring to.

Let me know if you are unable to locate those "issues" on the web. Will be happy to help.

In the meantime - get started with this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMvuESX6YFw

[Insearch]

Ah! Some lovely conversations up there, too much fun . Let me add some of my own masala:

I did the Ladakh ride on a TBTS. If I do it again, it will be on a 390, because it handles much better, brakes are more reliable, and it has a comfortable seat. The "Cruiser" variety are generally better for arrow straight roads or roads with curves (as opposed to sharp turns).

Initial 500 kilometres, the Duke posture was uncomfortable since I was used to the TBTS, but now the Duke feels perfect because the posture matches it's abilities. It is as versatile as you want it to be:

Ride sedate and keep it below 5000 rpm or push above, when the Hyde in you wins over Dr. Jekyll. Come corners and entertainment begins, open stretch and you are at three digits simply because you kept shifting up through the gears.

Do not get me wrong, I enjoy my TBTS too. Just that I wonder if it would be better to do 400 Kms with fun, entertainment and the opportunity to decide the pace, versus riding wiith my legs stretched out and the bike telling me at 80 kmph that I should pre plan all overtaking, braking and cornering. Actually, avoid cornering! (comparison made, keeping in mind the comparable budget for both bikes)

By the way the Duke has better support just above the tail bone versus the TBTS because of the raised pillion seat.

Classic 500 seat is generally agreed to be less comfortable for long rides versus other bullets/Enfields, though it is a lovely looking bike.

I have had my Duke for almost 2 months and planning that the next 2000 Km ride should be on it versus the Bird simply because I choose (i.e. the bike gives me multiple options) to cruise Or lean into corners as per the mood.

Bottom line is: if enough people think like you, there is a profitable market to tap, and Dukes or "cruisers" or customised bikes are just a market demand and revenue to the supplier, equation.


Thank God for the choices and thank you KTM for the technology and Bajaj for the pricing!

[mithunvvijayan]

I have contacted one of my classmates in my eng college, who has been working at Bajaj R&D division for the past 12 years.

I have presented the unique heat sensitive stalling problem of my bike to him. He said that he will get back to me by tomorrow. Fingers crossed

[abhinav.s]

Originally Posted by mithunvvijayan

I have presented the unique heat sensitive stalling problem of my bike to him. He said that he will get back to me by tomorrow. Fingers crossed

Lovely discussion that went on for the last few pages!! And Mithun, good to see that you have presented the problem to your friend. Your update might help the owners who might face this issue or are already facing the issue.