[ku69rd]

Originally Posted by saket77

but why would the engine suffer a permanent damage (as lubrication is not compromised)?

To be honest Saket, this is a myth that vehicles will suffer at high altitudes.

Let us take 2 types of bikes

1) Carburetor Powered Engines --> These engines will need to be retuned to perform at high altitudes. The regular city setting on the air screw and the needle will not work as the mixture will turn wet (meaning more petrol and less air) and bikes will simply fail to even start in a few examples. So one must make the mixture go lean and pack in more air. Now with a prolonged use of the bike in these settings will harm the engine if it not reverted to its original setting once you come back. Off course these settings are felt in altitudes excess of 5000 feet.
Now here we are exposing the bike to heightened maintenance and if they are not re-tuned (Carb Machines) the bikes will go bad in the regular roads. Running an engine with a lean mixture (more of air and less fuel) will kill the performance thus compromising on the compression and over a period of time they give way.

2) ECU Powered Engines --> These engines are more self adapting thanks to the sensor in the Exhaust. The mixtures will tend to go lean based on the inputs from the exhaust sensor thus preventing excess fuel into the combustion chamber.

My 2 cents and will leave everyone to make their decision if high altitude running actually spoils the bike or not.

[saket77]

^ You have echoed my thoughts exactly. All your points are very logical & most likely to hold true in real life situations.

Thanks,
Saket

[ebonho]

The point is not about logic or science. Real life experience does teach you that rides of this nature do shake the foundations of any machine. Purje dheele ho jaate hain! In adverse conditions, in self survival mode, one does tend to flog a machine in tough situations worse than what one would in the city on the way to office, or on a 2-3 day ride to the hills in the low lands. Mechnical empathy gives way to self phsical empathy.

The bike is filthy for days. The clutch and chain and sprocket take a bashing. The oil takes a bashing. The shocks and the forks and seals take a bashing. The wheels and tyres and bushes and races and bearings and seals and gaskets take a bashing. The big end as well as the engine bearings and piston takes a bashing. Metal fatigue and shear damage gets accelerated due to physical and thermal stresses. Water damage takes place. Transport damage takes place. Sub-par/adulterated fuel damage takes place. Paint damage from stones and luggage mounting takes place.

Not all of this gets reversed or leaves no permanent sequelae once the bike comes back and has a wash and full service with replacement of parts and consumables. Many scars will remain, some seen, many unseen. Like it or not, your machine is not a perpetual motion infinite resources timeless source of power (and neither are we for that matter). It does degrade and does have a finite life which you dip into more or less depending on how or where or for how long you ride. And a new-ish bike is never going to be the same again after a ride like this. She may look the same, but she is not the same. But then a machine is to be used. Otherwise you may as well leave it in the garage and take it out for 5 kms and then keep her back after a shampoo and wax.

[KPS]

Originally Posted by am1m

I must disagree.

If you read my post I have stated "may have to sell" There are risks associated with this biking trip, which one should keep in mind and only hope it does not happen.

Originally Posted by saket77

Any particular reasons for it? There are numerous reports on TBHP where people have not only gone to such places in bikes but also cars & SUVs; which inherently require much more air to keep them alive at such altitudes.

Actually the lean mixture will increase heat and causes knocking. You can burn the valves and pistons could seize if the mixture is too lean. Ideally one should take the bike to a local workshop and tune it based on their experience of running at high altitudes, where the air is very lean.

Cheers

KPS

[nitro.1000bhp]

For now your options are:

1. Hero Impulse

Pros: Adv bike on a budget...excellent suspension, lightweight, decent all-terrain tyres , comfy saddle, enough space for luggage and overall quite reliable.
cons: Lacks low end grunt, poor quality of parts and poor NVH levels

2. RE (350/500)

Pros: Good low-end , easy to service, pretty reliable, stable at speeds, can carry your kitchen-sink!
Cons: Heavy, Hard suspensions, poor NVH levels, poor fuel economy,prone to punctures, inadequate brakes and Heavy!!


3. Triumph XC

Pros: Powerful, generous seating, top quality parts, option for 2-up touring and luggage, good off-road dynamics, good suspension, acceptable NVH levels and that sweeeeet sounding triumph triple
Cons: Heavy, tall (considering your height), expensive, service-ability on the go, needs high-octane fuel and expensive to crash.

Future options include the KTM adv390,1190 and the BMW gs series

Options 1 and 2 are readily available. They both really are 'chalk and cheese' and it all boils down to what you want. Its a compromise between comfort (impulse) and Power (bull) and what one has the other looses so the only middle ground is getting the Kzma engine fitted to the impulse (can be done under a lakh) . I am only 5.7" and never had a problem grounding my feet on my impulse and also since its quite light it never was a handful in the twisties either .
If you are willing to wait there are a few models lined up in the near future for this segment. Fingers crossed, lets hope they deliver. For now I am happy with the impulse.


Cheers.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by KPS

There are risks associated with this biking trip, which one should keep in mind and only hope it does not happen.

Agreed. I managed to hit a rock at Zoji La during my ride (my own stupidity- was trying to adjust a knee guard while riding) and ended up having to patch the side casing on the Bull with M-Seal kindly given to me by the driver of a Maruti 800 who was passing by, to stop oil leaking out! The bike behaved well throughout the rest of the ride though, and I got the whole casing replaced when I got back home. Still, I'd rather take a chance with my own known trusted bike than risk a poorly maintained rental.

And like the good Doc said, that's what machines are for, to be used!

Speaking of the good Doc:

Originally Posted by ebonho

...no permanent sequelae

'Sequelae'?! Admit it Doc, you just wanted us to look that one up! (I did, thanks I've learnt a new word today!)

Originally Posted by nitro.1000bhp

If you are willing to wait there are a few models lined up in the near future for this segment. Fingers crossed, lets hope they deliver.

I hope so too man!

[KPS]

Some of you may have a missed the story of a brave bhpian venuraja.

Very interesting story of brave man, who just did a normal service on his new Ninja 250 CC and went on a 9000 kms trip, with the pinnacle of the trip being LEH!

Please see this thread http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/travel...ml#post3218873


Just wanted to highlight a piece, that you cannot treat this like any urban road trip with some off-roading. You need to prepare for the trip meticulously as you need to limit the risks.

ES, the bike struggled very hard even in first gear while climbing up towards Kardhung la only. At full throttle ,complete twist of accelarator , it struggled in first gear.
But among the bikers I met on the way, one young man's Yamaha fazer failed completely , so it had to transported. According to him he climbed down Kardhung-la , towards to Leh , without an engine !!. When I talked to him he was a pillion on fellow rider from Bangalore. Likewise on Apache 160 or 180 alternator failed. One Bullet 500 cc sproket's 16th were broken.

My bike has no carb, it has an FI system. In Itarsi I told the machanic that it was vibrating a lot in first gear and then he reduced the RPM or whatever he did , the moment I came out on road , it started getting switched off , whenever I went to lower RPM.
I did not go back , because I was getting late and that was a mistake.

Cheers

KPS

[ebonho]

I am a big framed guy, so for me the Bullet is not a big or heavy bike. Then I bought the Duke 200 and it redefined what a light, flickable, good handling, as well as stable and good stopping bike should be. I can definitely say this. Yes in the mountains torque is important. But weight is even more important. Most of the Bullet's torque is sucked up by it weight. So that the lighter bikes actually climb better. That's why its a fallacy to go according to paper specs and predict climbing behavior. Yes, in a Bullet, you have the luxury of making mistakes with your lines and the low rev torque pulling you out of trouble. But there are places where even the 500s come into 1st gear, and that is where I would rather be on a 130-140 odd kilo machine facing skyward but with great brakes, rather than a 180+ kilo Bullet and its brakes and no lower gear to go. Don't go by what any of us have to say. Just take a look at the last 10 years of the Raid de Himalaya and see which Indian bikes have done well.

[amit_purohit20]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Just take a look at the last 10 years of the Raid de Himalaya and see which Indian bikes have done well.

A slightly modified RTR180 (spokes and minus plastics) came 1st in the 250cc category and 2nd in the 400cc category.

I have never experienced a bullet in Hills so used to think that they are the best because of long stroke and low revving engine,but it seems that this engine is not doing enough because of Bullets own weight?

If not then the whole point of buying a Bullet for a trip like Leh gets lost.
Why would I then buy a bullet which has so many niggles, high weight, non-tubeless tyres and crappy brakes?

I did prefer a long stroke bike like ZMA over any other bike in those type of roads. The long stroke engine makes a difference and smooth NVH makes it bearable under stress and extremely reliable! Comfort is good too.

So I think inspite of the advent of new bikes like Duke390 etc, for sure below 1 lakh ZMA rules the roost as the best tourer and even I did dare to say for below 2 lakh price also because of DUKE 390's harsh suspension.

If thats not the case with Dukes suspension then I did still say that below 2 lakh Duke is the best tourer for even bad roads.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by amit_purohit20

If thats not the case with Dukes suspension then I did still say that below 2 lakh Duke is the best tourer for even bad roads.

Bro there is nothing harsh about the 390's suspension. That's how performance machines are sprung worldwide. We have just not gotten used to it yet.

Incidentally, at last year's Raid, 1,2, and 3 were all Duke 200s. In their first year in India. Its not for nothing that KTM is top dog on the world stage in rallies and off roading and enduros, and soon on track as well with their advent into Moto GP.

When KTM stamps a "Ready To Race" on its products, its not just marketing.

[amit_purohit20]

Originally Posted by amit_purohit20

I have never experienced a bullet in Hills so used to think that they are the best because of long stroke and low revving engine,but it seems that this engine is not doing enough because of Bullets own weight?

If not then the whole point of buying a Bullet for a trip like Leh gets lost.
Why would I then buy a bullet which has so many niggles, high weight, non-tubeless tyres and crappy brakes?

Originally Posted by ebonho

Bro there is nothing harsh about the 390's suspension. That's how performance machines are sprung worldwide. We have just not gotten used to it yet.

Thanks for the nice pics.
Could you throw light on the Bullets please, especially my comments?

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by amit_purohit20

Thanks for the nice pics.
Could you throw light on the Bullets please, especially my comments?

Welcome bro. Glad you liked them.

I have never experienced a bullet in Hills so used to think that they are the best because of long stroke and low revving engine,but it seems that this engine is not doing enough because of Bullets own weight?

Yes the weight is a drawback in the mountains and offroad where a lighter bike has a big advantage. For the same reason, I feel the big international enduros would be overkill for the Himalayas. You need a light and powerful bike. And not a very tall one at that. Something you can pick up loaded with luggage if it goes down. remember in the mountains sometimes just moving yourself makes you breathless.

If not then the whole point of buying a Bullet for a trip like Leh gets lost. Why would I then buy a bullet which has so many niggles, high weight, non-tubeless tyres and crappy brakes?

Because its a Bullet, and there is still no other bike which feels like one. So if you have never owned one, you should. At least once in your life. Its like a rite of passage for every Indian male.

That said, the Bullet is a great bike in its own right. It is tough. It is metal. It has decent ground clearance. Tough spoked wheels which go over rocks easily without collapsing or bending or breaking. Tough simple no nonsense suspension, though limited in travel. It has decent tank range (more than the KTMs). It can carry a lot of luggage and even a pillion. It has a great headlight (better than the KTMs).

[ku69rd]

Originally Posted by ebonho

You need a light and powerful bike. And not a very tall one at that. Something you can pick up loaded with luggage if it goes down. remember in the mountains sometimes just moving yourself makes you breathless.

Because its a Bullet, and there is still no other bike which feels like one. So if you have never owned one, you should. It has decent tank range (more than the KTMs).

+1 to that Doc,
Would agree to your philosophy on the bullet and riding it at the higher altitudes.
Personally i had never owned a RE bike and having used to the Jap bikes it was a welcome change.

Really liked their torque curve and the seamless way it gets past the obstacles. Something which am sure the RD would not have done.

[Jimmy_u]

Originally Posted by ku69rd

Really liked their torque curve and the seamless way it gets past the obstacles. Something which am sure the RD would not have done.

Hi ku69rd,

would be interested to here more on this comment vis-a-vis the japs v/s RE

Regards,
jimmy

[Ironhide]

That is an interesting discussion that has developed out there. Allow me to add my two cents.

Since you plan to use the bike often, with the trips lasting 3-5 days, maybe you ought to be looking the comfort factor more than anything else. Touring bikes/ cruisers present a strong case for themselves here. What's also v-e-r-y important is reliability - you don't want to be struggling with a kaput spark plug or carburettor in the back of beyond when you'd rather be feeling the wind in your hair !

You ought to look at the Karizma and Avenger for sub 1 Lac bracket and CBR 250R (ABS) in the ~2 lac bracket. The CBR has impeccable touring credentials, has taken a 57 year old across the country through every state capital (& Bhutan & Nepal too)http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/touring-...ndia-trip.html......it is the bike that has done the fastest Kashmir-Kanyakumari lap
http://www.motoroids.com/news/motoro...78-hours-flat/......& probably the fastest Delhi-Leh trip too http://www.bcmtouring.com/forum/trav...rathon-t37163/

Our own in house expert aargee has put together a comprehensive guide to CBR 250R here http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motorb...questions.html

I think the the following facts are worth considering when looking at CBR as a whole package:-

• It's a machine designed for touring specifically. Ergonomics have been designed for the purpose. Also it's friendly for short riders. http://rideapart.com/2013/07/the-eas...-short-riders/
• Has a robust C-ABS system,
• Has a respectable fuel economy and decent power & torque to tour two-up with pillion and luggage.http://rideapart.com/2013/07/the-10-...g-a-passenger/
• Modern and Reliable - one of the most important things to consider.
• It is designed and put together by the guys who happen to be largest motorcycle manufacturers on the planet with decades of experience under their belt.
• HMSI has a vast dealer and A$$ network in the country.
• Spares are cheap and now fairly regularly available.

Going by these, I feel that CBR 250R presents a strong case for itself. So I would advise you to read up, take a long-ish test drive and decide for yourself ! Wishing you many miles of happy touring

Cheers!

(PS: If you aren't averse to buying used, you can find a few ABS versions on OLX for as low as 1.3 - 1.4 Lacs)