[parrys]

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

I would like to learn about other issues, but can confirm that the issue with the bike key, is mostly in case of bike (s) parked outside garage, exposed to elements. I to change my Splendor's key mechanism & in case of my Pulsar, the mechanic oiled the same (not sure whether this is advisible) & it would work properly for few days.

The key issue was reported on a brand new bike. Folks know me, and how I crib about finer details, and hence asked me to stay away from KTM. Not that the quality is way down the chain, but its not flawless; or say the best. But then, the amount of power sent to the wheels can make you forget that.

Other issues; ebonho mentioned the fan problem.
Also, the life of parts on the KTM is relatively lower (almost > than half), as compared to my Yamaha.

[CARDEEP]

Originally Posted by parrys

The key issue was reported on a brand new bike. Folks know me, and how I crib about finer details, and hence asked me to stay away from KTM. Not that the quality is way down the chain, but its not flawless; or say the best. But then, the amount of power sent to the wheels can make you forget that.

Other issues; ebonho mentioned the fan problem.
Also, the life of parts on the KTM is relatively lower (almost > than half), as compared to my Yamaha.

In this case, I guess you could be better off waiting for the single cylinder 250CC Yamaha R25 expected next year.

Yamaha are the best in terms of overall quality across segments IMO, though I haven't owned a Yamaha personally, but still feel they are the best in India.

[parrys]

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

In this case, I guess you could be better off waiting for the single cylinder 250CC Yamaha R25 expected next year.

Yamaha are the best in terms of overall quality across segments IMO, though I haven't owned a Yamaha personally, but still feel they are the best in India.

I guess, but will the R25 have ABS? I doubt.
And will the R25 beat the RC390 price - I AM SURE IT WON'T.

[CARDEEP]

Originally Posted by parrys

I guess, but will the R25 have ABS? I doubt.
And will the R25 beat the RC390 price - I AM SURE IT WON'T.

The first is quite probable, but not the second part, as Yamaha would price it at par with the CB250R, making the RC390 a bargain.

However, Kawasaki's RR Mono could also be an option if ABS variant (though highly improbable, considering Ninja 250 doesn't gets ABS) is available in India later this year or next year.

[ebonho]

Except for the alloys which are not the best quality by any stretch, I really do not see any quality issue with the Dukes per se. Definitely not in my 200. There could be teething issues in the 390 which is probably not as mature a platform as the 200, but I do not see any quality issues per se.

Parrys, you are a tough guy to please man.

You have a 150cc 17 odd bhp single selling for 1.3 lacs with great build quality, no ABS, MRF tyres, 37 mm conventional Ceriani type forks, which would top out at 135. Then you have a 390 cc 44 bhp single with twin ABS and Metzelers and 44 mm WP licensed USD forks, that tops out at 175+. And sells for 2 lacs.

Is the notchy key movement really an issue we should be even discussing. You friend did not get a replacement for that under warranty?

Where is the comparison?

The R15 was a great bike for its time. That time is past now. The game moved on when Bajaj pincered it with the Duke above and the NS below. Quality and handling is what the R15 would continue to hold. But in the final analysis, you cannot argue against a volumetric and power gap. No amount of quality or other bels and whistles is going to bridge that gap.

Yamaha needs to get back into the game, even if they continue to charge a premium. Right now, they are lagging, and I see that you agree with me on that.

[RX135]

Originally Posted by ebonho

But in the final analysis, you cannot argue against a volumetric and power gap. No amount of quality or other bels and whistles is going to bridge that gap.

Yamaha needs to get back into the game, even if they continue to charge a premium. Right now, they are lagging, and I see that you agree with me on that.

While I agree on all other counts, especially on Yamaha digging own grave as far as performance bikes are concerned, I would hesitate to agree on the first part.

Quality is what sticks around, unless you change your bikes every 2 years. In my experience, most Bajaj bikes don't feel the same after first couple of years. Speed sure thrills, but not when things start rattling, when you start hearing funny sounds every other day, when vibrations start creeping in and when some part or other fails every now n' then.

I am sure, Dukes are much better belt than other average Bajaj bikes, but Quality does matter in longer run than just the top speed.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by RX135

While I agree on all other counts, especially on Yamaha digging own grave as far as performance bikes are concerned, I would hesitate to agree on the first part.

Quality is what sticks around, unless you change your bikes every 2 years. In my experience, most Bajaj bikes don't feel the same after first couple of years. Speed sure thrills, but not when things start rattling, when you start hearing funny sounds every other day, when vibrations start creeping in and when some part or other fails every now n' then.

I am sure, Dukes are much better belt than other average Bajaj bikes, but Quality does matter in longer run than just the top speed.

I would agree with you about Bajaj bikes overall. But the Duke is essentially not a Bajaj bike. Its a KTM. And regardless of who own how much stake, or which factory in which part of the world their bikes are built in, in the final analysis, KTM are not KTM by building crappy bikes.

They have not built up a formidable reputation of world beaters in almost every class of 2-wheled motorsport by building anything less than their own very very steep and exacting standards. And do remember that these Dukes are being exported and sold over the world. Not just India, SE Asia, Brazil, Africa and other developing nations, but equally EU, UK, Australia, and now from what I hear, even the US.

So while I agree that there are teething issues in the 390, I do not fault the build quality or the level of technology or equipment in the Dukes. And lets face it, in terms of equipment levels, like suspension and rubber and brakes, the Yams, including the R15, are a generation behind. This is not even taking the performance gulf into the equation.

So if the R15 was overpriced and demanding a premium earlier, its even more now with the Dukes in the equation. Same to an extent for the Ninjas (250 and 300) but at least they are direct imports and on the same level playing field cubic capacity and performance wise. Not to mention twin cylindered offerings.

Lets not even begin to speak about the CBRs and the Con GTs of the world living in lala land and charging 2.3 lacs for what they have to offer. Versus what the market offers at a lower cost.

[HyperRetard]

Originally Posted by ebonho

I would agree with you about Bajaj bikes overall. But the Duke is essentially not a Bajaj bike. Its a KTM. And regardless of who own how much stake, or which factory in which part of the world their bikes are built in, in the final analysis, KTM are not KTM by building crappy bikes.

KTM are the bajaj of the west. Impressive sprecs but horrible build quality.
Go to google.co.UK and search for KTM build quality. Alternatively, click on this link
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kt...hrome&ie=UTF-8

They have not built up a formidable reputation of world beaters in almost every class of 2-wheled motorsport by building anything less than their own very very steep and exacting standards. And do remember that these Dukes are being exported and sold over the world. Not just India, SE Asia, Brazil, Africa and other developing nations, but equally EU, UK, Australia, and now from what I hear, even the US.

Actually, they dont. They make great off road bikes. And nobody rides off road bikes everyday. They are, at best, the second bike. They are not tourers. In any compary between the R1200GS, the Super Tenere and the KTM Adventure, the KTM always ends up at the end by a significant margin, again let down by its niggles.
And as for the export part, like I've already said, visit google.uk, or google.us or google.au or google.<insert developed country name here> and see for yourself how ktm in general and "made in India dukes" in specific are getting slammed left right and centre for their build quality.

So while I agree that there are teething issues in the 390, I do not fault the build quality or the level of technology or equipment in the Dukes. And lets face it, in terms of equipment levels, like suspension and rubber and brakes, the Yams, including the R15, are a generation behind. This is not even taking the performance gulf into the equation.

Comparing a 2 lakh rupee bike to a 1.2 lakh rupee bike. Seems legit.
Anyways, this means that you have never sampled the R15. That thing is build quite well.
And for a fair comparison, I would like to wait till the speculated R3 hitts the market (rumoured this diwali) and then we will compare the two bikes. Essentially all Yamaha has to do it plonk two R15 engines in an R15 chasis, and there work is dont.

So if the R15 was overpriced and demanding a premium earlier, its even more now with the Dukes in the equation. Same to an extent for the Ninjas (250 and 300) but at least they are direct imports and on the same level playing field cubic capacity and performance wise. Not to mention twin cylindered offerings.

And still it sold. Speaks volumes about other factors, like brand, ASS, etc.
This to me just goes on to show that people will pay if they get a hassle free product. The R15 was so sucessful that it even inspired Honda to launch the CBR150R.
The R15 was, at its launch, one of the best bikes in the market, if you were small enough to fit in the saddle seat, that is. Overpriced: yes, but by how much? I'd say by 15K. Look at the amount of goodies that bike has, which others at that time did not. Like deltabox chasis, 6 speed box, monoshock, sticky tyres.

Lets not even begin to speak about the CBRs and the Con GTs of the world living in lala land and charging 2.3 lacs for what they have to offer. Versus what the market offers at a lower cost.

You are comparing different categories of bikes, and then coming to an absurd conclusion.

Anyone who likes to tour would buy a CBR
Anyone who lives in the ghats/next to the racetrack would buy an R15
Anyone who wants nostalgia would buy a RE GT cafe racer
Anyone who wants a bike for city commuting/hiding on the highway/short sunday rides/sttunting etc etc would buy a KTM.

Remember, if there was no R15(which made people open their wallets and show to the world that they are ready to pay a premium fo a quality product), there would be no CBR250, and then there would be no ktm 200, and there would be no ktm 390.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by HyperRetard

KTM are the bajaj of the west.

Bajaj bikes are known for the best bang for buck ratios. The world over KTM bikes are known for not being cheap. In fact pprice spectrum wise they are up there and probably over the BMWs and Ducatis, model for model. The Japs being a long way behind.

Actually, they dont. They make great off road bikes.

These are not off-road bikes.

In any compary between the R1200GS, the Super Tenere and the KTM Adventure, the KTM always ends up at the end by a significant margin, again let down by its niggles.

You and I have been reading very different comparos in that case.

Comparing a 2 lakh rupee bike to a 1.2 lakh rupee bike. Seems legit.

I guess you missed the part about "where is the comparison"

Try comparing a 1.3 lac bike to a 1.5 lac bike instead. Or a 1 lac bike.

Anyone who likes to tour would buy a CBR
Anyone who lives in the ghats/next to the racetrack would buy an R15
Anyone who wants nostalgia would buy a RE GT cafe racer
Anyone who wants a bike for city commuting/hiding on the highway/short sunday rides/sttunting etc etc would buy a KTM.

I do not pigeon hole bikes into specialist roles like you do. A bike is a bike, for its rider to do with it as he pleases.

[RX135]

Everyone has a bit of soft corner for own bike, just I have for Yamaha (No brainer that is, my handle gives away anyway).

When I disagreed with ebonho, it was about the quality being given less importance compared to specs. Afterall, Splendor, despite of no special specification, sold in millions and remained top selling bike for decade for no reason.

R15 definitely was a drool material and it still is today, and it's quality built. I went with cheque book but returned empty handed from Honda showroom after checking out CBR250R, because it disappointed me in comparison with R15. But, R15 certainly is no match to CBR250R and more so to D390, when it comes performance. It lags way far behind now.

R25 with 35 HP? Hmm...Now that would be interesting.

BUT, as things stand today, below is what summarizes my thoughts about Yamaha.

[HyperRetard]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Bajaj bikes are known for the best bang for buck ratios. The world over KTM bikes are known for not being cheap. In fact pprice spectrum wise they are up there and probably over the BMWs and Ducatis, model for model. The Japs being a long way behind.

I meant reliability wise, and build quality wise.

These are not off-road bikes.

Ofcourse they are not. Neither is the RC8. But can you tell what % of revenue of KTM is from the RC8. And what % of litre bikes sold are RC8s. Very VERY small %.

You and I have been reading very different comparos in that case.

I dont know what, and where you read, but I read was
http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/02/07...arison-test/4/

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=720340

I guess you missed the part about "where is the comparison"

Try comparing a 1.3 lac bike to a 1.5 lac bike instead. Or a 1 lac bike.

Makes no sense. Rephrase the sentence please.

[CARDEEP]

Originally Posted by RX135

R25 with 35 HP? Hmm...Now that would be interesting.

BUT, as things stand today, below is what summarizes my thoughts about Yamaha.

To add to your , , & a small effort to divert attention from all the fireworks, we wont get the bike you are dreaming of - R25 with 35 HP.

It's a twin cylinder meant for the developed markets, where they would easily get the moolah for 35 horses. We could at best get a single cylinder Yamaha R25 with under 30 horses power. Good for most Indians, but we would get the bike that handles like any other R series Yamaha.

Please can now on all the interaction on Yamaha be avoided to avoid Mods wrath.

[parrys]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Except for the alloys which are not the best quality by any stretch, I really do not see any quality issue with the Dukes per se. Definitely not in my 200. There could be teething issues in the 390 which is probably not as mature a platform as the 200, but I do not see any quality issues per se.

Parrys, you are a tough guy to please man.

You have a 150cc 17 odd bhp single selling for 1.3 lacs with great build quality, no ABS, MRF tyres, 37 mm conventional Ceriani type forks, which would top out at 135. Then you have a 390 cc 44 bhp single with twin ABS and Metzelers and 44 mm WP licensed USD forks, that tops out at 175+. And sells for 2 lacs.

Is the notchy key movement really an issue we should be even discussing. You friend did not get a replacement for that under warranty?

Where is the comparison?

The R15 was a great bike for its time. That time is past now. The game moved on when Bajaj pincered it with the Duke above and the NS below. Quality and handling is what the R15 would continue to hold. But in the final analysis, you cannot argue against a volumetric and power gap. No amount of quality or other bels and whistles is going to bridge that gap.

Yamaha needs to get back into the game, even if they continue to charge a premium. Right now, they are lagging, and I see that you agree with me on that.

Agreed, all of it, and yes, TOUGH TO PLEASE.

My comparison however is not direct, but relative.
I would have bought the Duke 390 even if it had 10 BHP less but much better quality at the same price.

I can't imagine what the boys who got the first lot of the Duke 390s would have felt, after paying ~ 2 lakhs for a bike in India. Which is quite a lot.

Notchy key might sound quite a small annoyance to be ignored, but only if you use the bike once a week or so. I do 100 kms a day. I don't wan't a key which doesn't move like a hot knife in butter. I don't want issues with the cooling systems. I definitely don't want my rim to crack in the middle of a 29 km straight highway, where I obviously would redline.

I love the mad acceleration on the KTM, and again, I would love to own the RC390 myself, but my friend who owns a Duke 390 himself has asked me to keep off it. So, this should justify the statements to come that I don't own a KTM.

I ride with a group of 10+ bikes, and all of them ride D200s. I see oil seals failing, cone sets loose, chain sprockets giving up & much more at ~ 10,000 kms. These issues showed up on my R15 @ 27,000 kms. Speaks of quality, no?

Still, looking forward to a test ride, soon.

The big ugly truth, Yamaha has lost it already. And I have already planned to move on. Visited the classifieds section recently?

Will the RC 390 have taller gearing?

[RX135]

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

We could at best get a single cylinder Yamaha R25 with under 30 horses power. Good for most Indians, but we would get the bike that handles like any other R series Yamaha.

Would Yamaha invest in building 2 separate engines for 2 different markets? I doubt that. When Suzuki/Kawasaki/Hyosung can bring in twin cylinder setups, why not Yamaha?

Anyway, coming back to RC390, is there any inside info around the launch date? I am keenly looking forward to RC390 launch and also at planned CBR500R launch. I like Honda in a sense that they don't create too much hype around what they are planning to launch. They silently go ahead and launch it.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by RX135

Would Yamaha invest in building 2 separate engines for 2 different markets? I doubt that. When Suzuki/Kawasaki/Hyosung can bring in twin cylinder setups, why not Yamaha?

World economy.

The trend globally, including the once rich and wasteful Western countries, is for simplification and economy.

The trend of Kawasaki back regulating in effect from a Ninja 250 twin to now an equally cool looking Ninja 250 single.

Plus the two (singles and twins) are vastly different bikes in terms of feel and how they lay down the power. Frankly I do not see an issue in making a twin as well as a single of the same capacity.

I have been praying for Royal Enfield to do that for well close to a decade now ......