[adrian]

Originally Posted by tharian

In the process of getting a new key assembly.

...., one of the springs popped out and I couldn't find it after.
There was quite a bit of dirt and grime in it which may be the reason I am thinking for the starting issue.

For now, the engine starts even if the key is in off position because of the missing spring.

Under normal circumstances, the spring shouldn't escape. That means, for some reason it got out of it's position and was not doing it's job of pushing the copper bridge against the terminals in the bottom plate. This could be the reason for your motorcycle not starting, along with dirt and grime contributing to the cause.

[tharian]

Originally Posted by adrian

Under normal circumstances, the spring shouldn't escape. That means, for some reason it got out of it's position and was not doing it's job of pushing the copper bridge against the terminals in the bottom plate. This could be the reason for your motorcycle not starting, along with dirt and grime contributing to the cause.

Looks like the issue is elsewhere down the line.
I replaced the ignition with a new one and it was still dead.
I'll check the wiring under the tank next.

[tharian]

Latest update :

Bike is parked till I drop it off at the mech and get the issue fixed.

Yesterday, I removed the tank and seat and checked the wiring and couldn't find any wires that were chaffed or worn. Checked and cleaned the couplers as well. The only thing left is to open the clutch case and check the wires from the alternator which I couldn't do. Will try that today as a last resort if I find a pan to drain the clutch oil.

After putting everything back together, the bike was firing fine and I took it for a spin in the evening and parked it for a while at a spot. It didn't start after that and I didn't feel it safe to park it there overnight and pushed it couple of kms before I could start it on a slope by slipping the clutch after few tries before. Thank God or I had to push it for another 3 kms including over a flyover.

Locating the issue since it's electrical is the difficult part.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by tharian

Locating the issue since it's electrical is the difficult part.

If you do not have any sentimental attachments to the wiring harness you could simply replace it.

That is what I'd personally do, after all 1.2L is more than enough life for the electricals as far as my concerns go, heck even 50k is fine for me.

But yes, troubleshooting it would better equip you for any such concerns in the future.

Cheers,
A.P.

[adrian]

Originally Posted by tharian

Latest update :
before I could start it on a slope by slipping the clutch after few tries before.

Now this is interesting. Let's assume that the spark or voltage required for the spark plug to function, that was not generated at cranking speeds produced by operating the kicker was generated when the motorcycle was let loose on an incline. So what would be the culprit here ? Having a weird problem in your hand, I think you would be better off with a wiring circuit diagram, a good multi meter and lots of patience. I am subscribed to your thread to see how this solves.

[tharian]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

If you do not have any sentimental attachments to the wiring harness you could simply replace it.

That is what I'd personally do, after all 1.2L is more than enough life for the electricals as far as my concerns go, heck even 50k is fine for me.

But yes, troubleshooting it would better equip you for any such concerns in the future.

Cheers,
A.P.

Originally Posted by adrian

Now this is interesting. Let's assume that the spark or voltage required for the spark plug to function, that was not generated at cranking speeds produced by operating the kicker was generated when the motorcycle was let loose on an incline. So what would be the culprit here ? Having a weird problem in your hand, I think you would be better off with a wiring circuit diagram, a good multi meter and lots of patience. I am subscribed to your thread to see how this solves.

I think I may have fixed it, but will need few days to confirm as the issue was intermittent except that in the last couple of weeks the frequency had increased.

I opened the clutch case and everything looked fine at first glance. My eyes were on a coupler which was connected to a small black box behind the stator. I am not sure what the black box is. The plastic coupler wasn't locked and couldn't be either as the part that goes into the female side was missing that tiny piece which locks it. To check if that was the culprit, I started the bike, which started fine today, and tried unplugging it. It didn't uncouple easily and when it did, the engine turned off. Plugged it back in and it fired fine when I kicked. Still wasn't convinced that was coming loose at times preventing the bike from starting.

Next, I removed the stator to check if anything was loose behind and there was another green wire on the front which seemed to be attached by just few strands of wire. There was a red and green one which was attached to this one coil and was coated with a gel which was rubbery. I had a feeling that green wire was going to pop out soon and it did when I was screwing the stator back. I pushed it back into the gel and fired the bike and it did, when pulled out, it didn't. Atleast now I knew these wires were required for ignition. Hoping that the gel would hold that wire in place as I pushed it in and checked if it will come off easily, and after few more checks by firing the engine, I put the case back and oil and fired the bike and it was dead..
Took my lunch break and came back after an hour and tried again thinking that was not the issue and it may fire up now, it still didn't. Looked like the oil splashing had made it come off.
Opened up everything again and that wire seemed to be not sitting properly in that gel. So I removed the gel at that point to see how it is connected and it looked like it was soldered. Got my soldering rod and soldered it back to place. Engine fired up.

Before I put the case and poured the oil, checked many times by turning off the ignition and firing it and it did everytime. Put everything back and took it for a short spin and revved it so to check if turns off because of the vibrations. So far so good.

My assumption if this was the issue, is that the wire was hanging on by just few strands and wasn't passing enough current. By slipping the clutch on a slope, it produced enough current to fire. I am not sure what the gel does or if it just protection against the oil. But what I couldn't figure out was why it always started fine in the morning after the issue occurs, but not after a run and parking it for an hour or more. I guess the oil heat plays a role on that gel which then affected the loose connection.

Anyway fingers crossed and hopefully it was a Sunday well spent. If this was not the issue and it happens again, wiring replacement it will be.
Now the bike has to regain my trust to start using it to know if the issue is fixed it not.

Before and after soldering.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by tharian

I am not sure what the black box is.

Pulser/Pickup Coil.

This is what triggers the sparkplug to fire with respect to crank position.

Now the bike has to regain my trust to start using it to know if the issue is fixed it not.

Is there any means of sourcing the wiring diagram for your model?

I did give Google a shot but there were simply too many variants to correctly identify which one is apt for your motorcycle.

With the wiring diagram at hand we could get a better idea of where to look at or even what were actually looking at.

As for issues cropping up on a warm machine, this is common when electricals are nearing the end of their life, I recall reading a case where the pickup coil itself wasn't working as the temperature rose.

Good to know that shes up and running.

Cheers,
A.P.

[tharian]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

Is there any means of sourcing the wiring diagram for your model?

I did give Google a shot but there were simply too many variants to correctly identify which one is apt for your motorcycle.

With the wiring diagram at hand we could get a better idea of where to look at or even what were actually looking at..

Cheers,
A.P.

Here you go. It was in the bikes manual.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by tharian

Here you go. It was in the bikes manual.

Beautiful. Also goes to show how useless owner's manuals have come to be over the years.

So both Green wires are the ground wires for the Primary Coil on the Alternator as well as the Pulser coil. So basically if either one is disconnected i.e there is no grounding then motorcycle would not fire.

The Red Wire and Black wire are the alternate wires for the Primary Coil and Pulser Coil respectively. Even if they're disconnected or grounded by any chance then also it the motorcycle would not fire, extra caution to be taken to make sure that the Red Wire isn't grounded as it's coming from a coil and could result in a burnout.

Does make one question why the Primary Coil's wires are so flimsily attached.

Anyhow, your Igntion Switch works similar to the one on my CT100B.

ON: 12v Conncted, CDI Ground Disconnected.
OFF: 12v Disconnected, CDI Ground Connected.

With the CDI Ground Connected there would not be any spark, this is the same line used to wire the Engine Kill Switch.

12v: Both Red Wires.
CDI Ground: Red Black and Black(This is Grounded to chassis and both grounds for Primary Coil and Pulser Coil are also connected to this circuit to be grounded to chassis).

I like this setup cause the motorcycle would keep firing even if the Battery or even the RR unit is fried, technology of a bygone era, simplicity at its best!

P.S. This setup is the exact reason why I'd prefer my CT100B over any modern machine any given day of the week when it comes to touring interstate for extended periods.

Cheers,
A.P.

[tharian]

Update on the starting issue.

I used the bike to office today as well as couple of short errands from yesterday. So far so good and the bike started in the first or second kick every time. I am not raising my hopes yet since the issue had been that irregular over last years. But I have a good feeling that this was the issue.

On the other hand, it feels like the engine has become more smoother probably because it is getting the full spark required. I will keep a watch on the fuel efficiency. I have a feeling the issue didn't show up when I did the Chennai trip in December because I had replaced the ignition coil with a new one which I assume made up for the lack of current from the stator, as I had felt a slight change in exhaust note as well.

Something else I noticed after this work was that there was mild air intake kind of hollow sound from the stator when riding the bike. I know it is from there as it gets a bit louder when the headlights are turned on. I am not sure how it started now as the only thing done was to reconnect the almost disconnected wire. It is not loud and cannot be noticed unless you know all the other noises the bike makes. I topped up the clutch oil today as it was low and it seemed to have reduced the sound a bit.
The bike is anyway due for service soon and the clutch oil will be replaced then.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by tharian

Something else I noticed after this work was that there was mild air intake kind of hollow sound from the stator when riding the bike.

Two possibilities;

1. Stator fasteners have come loose.

2. Stator-Magnetto clearance has gone for a toss.

Next time take the stator off and reset it, make sure to use thread lock before tightening fasteners.

P.S. The Primary Coil powers the CDI, Lighting Coil powers the Lights, Charging Coil powers the Battery. Turning light ON does result in electromagnetic pull that causes shifting if the fasteners are loose, hence the change in noise.

P.P.S. By Lights I mean everything connected to the Lighting Coil, the blinkers, horn etc i.e everything powered by DC current is(obviously) powered by the Battery.

Cheers,
A.P.

[tharian]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

Two possibilities;

1. Stator fasteners have come loose.

2. Stator-Magnetto clearance has gone for a toss.

Next time take the stator off and reset it, make sure to use thread lock before tightening fasteners.

..

What do we do if the clearance is off? I have a feeling that is the issue although I remember tightening all the nuts the same.

Also on the insides of the stator has these patches which is what creates the current when the magneto rotates? Does that have a play in the clearance as I had slightly wiped them too when I removed the stator. It was just a film of oil on them which I wiped off though.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by tharian

What do we do if the clearance is off?

Remove clutch cover and align stator such that there is enough clearance between the stator and magnet.

I have a feeling that is the issue although I remember tightening all the nuts the same.

The problem is quality of machining, I've read about instances where even the Pulser/Pickup coils clearance has to be measured before torquing down on older machines which is something unheard of on current machines.

Also when setting the the stator it does tend to get pulled towards the magnet. So I'd suggest partially tightening the stator till it's almost snug and then inspecting clearance, moving it around till its centered and then tightening it all the way, goes without saying rubber mallet over an actual hammer or anything that can cause damage.

Also on the insides of the stator has these patches which is what creates the current when the magneto rotates? Does that have a play in the clearance as I had slightly wiped them too when I removed the stator. It was just a film of oil on them which I wiped off though.

Yeah, when the magnet rotates over the poles current is generated. There should be clearance between the poles of the alternator and magnet for obvious reasons, the lack or it is the cause of your current concern.

I have not worked on such a motorcycle but from experience with the ones I've worked on the poles are fixed, the only removable part would be the Primary Coil, but again that could be the case with the motorcycles I've owned, on yours if the poles aren't separately fastened to the alternator then individual alignment is not a matter of concern.

The basic principle is, when magnet rotates it should have enough clearance from the poles of the alternator. You could use a feeler gauge or thick piece of paper or even plastic scrap to ensure the same if you doubt your vision may not be up to the task, but I believe a torchlight would be more than enough to visually confirm that there is adequate play between all poles and the raised portions of the magnet.

P.S. Since parts are hard to come by for your motorcycle and I presume they'd be pricey, if I were you I'd get to setting things right ASAP.

Regards,
A.P.

[tharian]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

Remove clutch cover and align stator such that there is enough clearance between the stator and magnet.



The basic principle is, when magnet rotates it should have enough clearance from the poles of the alternator. You could use a feeler gauge or thick piece of paper or even plastic scrap to ensure the same if you doubt your vision may not be up to the task, but I believe a torchlight would be more than enough to visually confirm that there is adequate play between all poles and the raised portions of the magnet.

P.S. Since parts are hard to come by for your motorcycle and I presume they'd be pricey, if I were you I'd get to setting things right ASAP.

Regards,
A.P.

I think the top left nut was torqued too much. If you see the two pictures of the alternator in my earlier post, the first one was before I removed the alternator and the second one, after I put it back and the position of the nut on the top left is in a different position. I'll check on that this weekend and see if it is fixes it.

Part availability as of now is not an issue, nor is it expensive. In fact from what I know, the A350/500 parts are hard to come by.

[adrian]

Glad to hear that you are making progress.

Here is what Mr.Peter Snidal has to say about mounting the alternator



Invest in a feeler gauge and a torque wrench. You will never regret your purchase.

regards adrian