[Parth46]

<Slow clap, steadily rising into a deafening crescendo>

Originally Posted by JayKis

There is a reason why Rossi won moving from Honda to Yamaha. Both the bikes were good even before he set foot on it. Read Kenny Roberts Jr's article on the same. We all know what happened when he moved to Ducati

Are you really serious? So you really believe that Honda and Yamaha were at the same level at that time since it was all just electronics? You sound like Honda who in turn sounded like a broken record when they said that Rossi is winning cos of their dominant RCV. He immediately moved to Yamaha and then to quote your favorite term - whupped ass!! I think you were lucky enough to be privy to some "insider" motoGP info that us mere mortals can only dream of. Were you a part of the factory development teams by any chance? Still, let me play along:

Rossi on Honda in 2003 : Absolute and complete domination. No-one even came close and Yamaha hadn't won anything in over 18 months, despite having same electronics per your insight. Why didn't anyone pose even a semblance of competition at that time even though Yamaha also had good riders. And what about fellow Honda guys like Gibernau and Biaggi?

Rossi moves to Yamaha in 2004 : The world is amazed as he's the first and only guy
to win back to back on different machinery. And the grid still had Gibernau and Biaggi on the omni-potent Honda and Rossi still whupped ass, cemented the Rossi legend and broke both Gibernau and Rossi physically and mentally. Utter destruction. Considering he still remains the one guy to do it ever, I think your bar for success is really very high and can't be met by guys like Valentino Rossi. Respect, mate!

Rossi won only due to electronics

Aw shucks, you've got me here mate and I concede defeat. This "tortured" fanboy is not even remotely qualified to make such an insane, sweeping judgement call on the greatest bike racer to have ever walked God's green earth, but if you, in all your bike racing experience, your "insider" access to MotoGP data, and all your wisdom, say so - I'm ready to roll with that.
You do the art of motorcycle racing a gross injustice but I'll leave it at that.

It's like saying Lionel Messi scores all those goals as the net is wider for him, SRT scored all those centuries as the bowlers went easy on him, Michael Jordan scored all those points as the net was bigger for him, Tiger Woods won all those titles as the course was easier for him.

Sporting achievements are something that these folks dedicated their entire lives towards, sacrificed blood,sweat and tears along the way and it's shameful to trivialize their accomplishments like this.

Valentino Pussy could have won the 125, 250, 500, 800, 1000 or whatever, you can show multiple classes.

A little respect goes a long way dude. If Moaner can quit his chosen sport that he's at the peak of simply cos he resents his rival's immense popularity, then it's him who's the pussy and every single one of his fans!! You've got to be gone in the head to give everything up like that, it's daft and childish.

Thats the point. Stats will show you that Rossi Pussy got his ass whooped in his rivalries with Stoner, Lorenzo and Marquez. Thats something the fanboys cant manipulate!

I've always presented career figures in my previous posts, and not just a sub-section of a few years. It's only you who've manipulated numbers by showing results from a section of a riders career. The fact is this- Do Moaner/Lorenzo/Marquez have 9 world titles? NO!! Get back in a few years when they do and we'll rap.


In closing - I know this can go on indefinitely, and this is my last comment here. You and I can go on like this forever and I feel there is no point in raking up the past when this thread is all about the 2015 season. Let's just support our respective favorite riders and enjoy the spectacle that every one of these special riders with chequered careers can provide.

[ebonho]

The day Rossi broke Stoner's back.

He's had one such defining moment for each rider who's come up against him ..... and gone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY9mrKR5SkA

With Rossi is not just his Godly skill.

Its his ability to ask questions. Relentlessly.

And he likes asking them perched on the other guy's rear wheel. At 300 kmph.

Not a nice feeling, if you're the one in front.

[b16h22]

I like most riders. Never had the chance to watch the heydays of Rossi. But when it comes to shear old school riding no one can match him. That's why I've always loved him just like many here. The man is a god. He brings happiness to many when he is on song. Marq is close in charisma but i don't see him matching Vale

[GTO]

Originally Posted by ebonho

The day Rossi broke Stoner's back.

He's had one such defining moment for each rider who's come up against him ..... and gone.

Tremendous racing! As an F1 fan, I can say this: You've just shown me more racing action in 4 minutes than I usually see in an entire season of Formula Yawn.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by GTO

Tremendous racing! As an F1 fan, I can say this: You've just shown me more racing action in 4 minutes than I usually see in an entire season of Formula Yawn.

Unfortunately that's the F1 of today. Really sad. Yawn is right. More often than not, I cannot stay awake till the end of the race and doze off on the couch. For Moto GP I doze off during the opening two races and am wide eye awake the moment the marque event rolls in.

I put this down to racers + the rules + the cars/bikes + to an extent, the commentators.

Speaking of commentators, I just have to ask this from the more knowledgeable Indian racing scene guys.

Who is the frenchie dude pre and post race on Ten Sports man?! And pardon the gender bias, but a dude-tte in Moto GP? Really?!!

I can't reach the remote fast enough ..... failing which I have this overpowering need to hurl .... something.

[b16h22]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Unfortunately that's the F1 of today. Really sad. Yawn is right. More often than not, I cannot stay awake till the end of the race and doze off on the couch. For Moto GP I doze off during the opening two races and am wide eye awake the moment the marque event rolls in.

I put this down to racers + the rules + the cars/bikes + to an extent, the commentators.

Speaking of commentators, I just have to ask this from the more knowledgeable Indian racing scene guys.

Who is the frenchie dude pre and post race on Ten Sports man?! And pardon the gender bias, but a dude-tte in Moto GP? Really?!!

I can't reach the remote fast enough ..... failing which I have this overpowering need to hurl .... something.

That part is rather annoying. Ten sports should do something about it. They are just killing the excitement before the race. It's neither informative nor half decent to watch

[Manoj2268]

It is probably OT but one thing that peeves me to this day is the bias shown by the fans and commentators alike. Only for Valentino Rossi, his 125 and 250 championships are counted in the total tally (hearing Nick Harris say "9-times world champion" one more time makes me want to throw something at the TV ). But for his rivals, Biaggi (4 times), Pedrosa(3 times), Lorenzo(4 times) and Marquez(4 times), facts are very conveniently ignored or twisted.

@GTO: On Youtube, MotoGP has uploaded the Barcelona 2007 race as well. Watch that one too. That was a nail-biter till the last lap.

@ebonho: Watch the Philip Island races of 2008 and 2009. Both races showed that Casey learned the Doctor's tricks quick enough and was able to block the passes.

[ebonho]

Rossi vs Biaggi .... including the legendary mid corner salute (please note how contritely apologetic he is about it in the post race interview later .... ). From a time when Moto GP was a lot more physical than it is today. More than half of those blocking moves would have had marshall scrutiny in today's ultra politically correct racing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZIi4PN_z9Q

Can't help but compare Biaggi's snooty behavior towards a young Rossi, compared to Rossi with an equally young Marquez .....

[Urban_Nomad]

Originally Posted by Parth46

Dude, very well written .

Thank you for the kind words. Like I said earlier, I'm a newbie; both as a rider and a spectator of this sport. My understanding of past events is limited to what I hear from other veterans supplemented by YouTube. People like you help fill in the gaps

Originally Posted by Parth46

I'm not an old-timer - just 30! - even though have been riding (some racing) for the last 15 odd years.

Arrey old timer taking only riding experience in account. Just like Stoner for example was an old time rider even though he was just 26. The man had been riding since the age of 3. Unbelievable!!!

Originally Posted by Parth46

No, the barriers to entry are not that high. To quote your example, you don't need to suffer and pull off heroic deeds on a bike to "qualify" for the Valentino Rossi fan club.

You misunderstood me. I was comparing a newbie getting entry into this "old school brotherhood" of old time riders as a "part of the gang" with another newbie motogp rider getting entry into the "as good as Rossi" club in these veterans' books. Being a part of the Rossi support group is the easiest. Just call Rossi a god n you are in

Originally Posted by Parth46

He has single-handedly elevated MotoGP to a whole new level

This is where it gets lopsided for me. Many have and continue to contribute to this great spectacle. To say the sport, which in my opinion is a thing if beauty, will die because one however popular entity would retire is just absurd and frankly disrespectful to the sport itself

Originally Posted by Parth46

No, till a few years ago, almost all records were in Rossi's name. Only in the last few years have all metrics been re-written by the newbies and we love them for that. Shows that the new young group is very fast and tech has also improved a lot as well.

No, the newbie lovers are NOT fans of Rossi........

Good, balanced view point. At least not like many other Rossi supporters here who can only talk about Rossi s greatness by literally pulling down other riders; past n present, to make their point. This sort of trash talk is not progressive and just does the motogp franchise a great disservice

It's actually downright hilarious. From whatever little I've observed, most riders share a sense of camaraderie and overall sportsman like conduct even off the track. It's these armchair critics that bring in the bad blood

Hate these haters; irrespective of which side of the fence they are on

Anyhow; in Marc we (still) trust. What a spectacle it would be if he fights his way back to the top. It won't be easy though

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad

You misunderstood me. I was comparing a newbie getting entry into this "old school brotherhood" of old time riders as a "part of the gang" with another newbie motogp rider getting entry into the "as good as Rossi" club in these veterans' books. Being a part of the Rossi support group is the easiest. Just call Rossi a god n you are in

I understood your point perfectly and all I can say is that its a moving goalpost. A newbie does not remain a newbie forever. The "old boy gang" expands with time and riding. Not just how long ago, but how long, how much, how, where, with who, and what all. Its got little to do with age. And over time once newbies are accepted as old school with the passage of time and the influx of a lot more very young newbies. And even then there is an unspoken hierarchy of the really old old boys, the slightly less old old boys, the mid level old boys, and the new old boys who were newbies a few years ago. This is in the real world. In the world of professional motor sport and fan following, witness F1 and first Kimi and then Alonso, as successors of Schumi and Barrichelo. Both are now being followed and cheered by the old boy's gang as the last remaining link to "old school" racing. But that does not come only with the passage of time, but from the type of racers these two are. Hamilton if he lasts another 3-4 years will similarly become old school one day. I doubt his team mate will. Similarly the Rossi fan club with the advent of the Lorenzos and Pedrosas and Marquezs is now warming up to Stoner - something he could never manage (and kept moaning about) while he was actively racing.

[Urban_Nomad]

Originally Posted by ebonho;

something he could never manage (and kept moaning about) while he was actively racing.

Nicely elaborated doc. And as you rightly mentioned, those hierarchies remain. Of course it's not an age thing but only your ass on seat time, and what all you have been able to do during that time (rallies, limping your ride home in the most dire conditions, 1000 on rides at the drop of a hat, being crazy fast on the streets etc) really defines your place

About Stoner - I view him in a very different light. He was brash, very vocal and actually did not even mind a physical confrontation at times. Never backed down from a fight. In my eyes, he's a fighter. A thoroughbred fiery Aussie fighter. Not someone who moaned and groaned in a corner but was very "in your face" kinda guy. I don't think it went very well with the Rossi brigade that a "mere mortal" stood eye to eye with their "god" and never flinched. Thus the stupid stupid "hate-name"

I remember watching a YouTube video recently where Rossi went down during a race and took stoner out as well. Stoner could not get the bike started but Rossi; with the help of the marshals did and went on to finish the race in 5th position. Post race, Rossi came over to his camp to apologise and (lol) Stoner tells him - "your ambition outweighs your talent"

When the reporters asked Rossi why he didn't take off his helmet whilst apologising, he says - I don't know his he would react do I kept it on

Basically, guys were scared of confronting him without their safety gear. That's pretty badass in my books

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad

Basically, guys were scared of confronting him without their safety gear. That's pretty badass in my books

Did you see the last video I posted? Rossi actually came to blows with a much senior Biaggi just off frame before the awards ceremony, and had a cut above his eye while collecting his trophy. In racing it does not matter if you are racing in Pune Festival Castrol trophy or Moto GP. Tempers can and do spill over and its not uncommon to find the racers along with their follower camps all coming to blows.

Personally I don't think you could touch Rossi anywhere in the world and escape unhurt. Rossi has more fanatical fans than there are Australians in the world all put together - so the badass-ery is all hot air if you ask me. My personal theory is that he is a pretty henpecked guy and his retirement had a lot to do with his wife post the birth of their child and less to do with all the other fluff being thrown around on social media.

[Urban_Nomad]

Originally Posted by ebonho

so the badass-ery is all hot air if you ask me. My personal theory is that he is a pretty henpecked guy and his retirement had a lot to do with his wife post the birth of their child and less to do with all the other fluff being thrown around on social media.

Sure I watched the vid doc. A few days ago actually and enjoyed every minute if it. Rossi sure is a badass too, I never denied it. But Stoner's not a delicate flower either

And that kinda sums up what I have been trying to say. I (newbie rider n supporter) will never even flinch while calling Rossi a hero / badass / whatever nice things. You (old school veteran rider n Rossi supporter) on the other hand would never ever acknowledge that another rider could be a badass too

Here's a video summarising a few physical battles of the past. Boy, Nicky Hayden sure is an angry lad

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad

You (old school veteran rider n Rossi supporter) on the other hand would never ever acknowledge that another rider could be a badass too

In this thread itself I have more than a few posts where I have (grudgingly) acknowledged Stoner's quality. He was arguably the best Rossi has faced (he never really raced Doohan for any length of time as I can recall).

But acknowledging someone to be a badass just to sound fair and balanced and "new age boy" is something I cannot do. As an Indian cricket buff (decreasingly so) I've seen my fair share of aussie badasses from The Invincibles. Stoner would be laughed out of that aussie cricket dressing room. Someone like Warnie would take particular exception to Stoner never having an umbrella girl other than his wife, for starters.

[JayKis]

Originally Posted by Sheel

Hi!

I do like Valentino & I am his fan, but I do like others as well. I like the way Lorenzo rides & switch off the tv the moment he crosses the line, not something I do when Rossi wins. That is the prime reason of him having so many fans.

On topic of electronics, I recall an interview of his [in Bike India or Overdrive, some ~ years ago] that he was against electronics & other rider aides. But because I don't have any links etc, I won't push further.

And to be very honest, race-craft wise I will still pick Valentino over his other rivals racing at the moment. I am not going into any statistics, but if he qualified in top 6 and didn't have to over work to gain positions, I bet, he would have been at top.

I also know & acknowledge that he can't get a good qualifying spot & that is half the race lost. But putting up a show...you got to hand over to him.

What do you folks like watching? A Pedrosa/Lorenzo march to finish line or 'em fighting for positions with each other? Why watch a race then? Go and watch qualifying on Saturday [Friday for Assen]

And you can't compare different eras, no you can't. Lots of things were different, from tires to electronics to regulations...lots.

Sheel, just a different perspective from my side.
Your pick is Valentino and I respect that decision but most of the Rossi fans have no respect for other riders. This has been proved in due course of history over their remarks on Biaggi, Gibernau, Cappirossi, Stoner and Lorenzo.
But if you question Rossi, they tend to first do the character assassination of the questioner and his favourite rider. A pattern observed along the years.


You could bet that if he qualified 2nd he would catch Lorenzo? I dont think so. The reason is here. He simply doesnt have the pace to match Lorenzo on a medium front tyre. How good is he on the front hard. We will get to know this weekend. Here is the analysis of the last 3 races
http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/219...omparison.html
Rossi simply lacks the pace is the answer


What is the motto of a racer? Win races, right? So if someone darts off the line, just pounds lap after lap and no one is able to touch him, does he lack race craft? No, absolutely not. It is just that he is too good that no one is able to catch him. Does it make for interesting viewing? Not to the layman. It still makes a good viewing for the people who understand racing.This is the conundrum. Motogp has prototype machines and every machine is going to be different. So it cannot be regulated that all machines be similar to take stock of who is the best racer and to make the race closer. Factories work hard for a small advantage and then milk it out for 2-3 years till the other factories catch up and take over. A quick look at the constructors winning motogp will give u this.

2002 Honda, 2003 Honda, 2004 Honda,
2005 Yamaha
2006 Honda,
2007 Ducati,
2008 Yamaha, 2009 Yamaha, 2010 Yamaha,
2011 Honda, 2012 Honda, 2013 Honda, 2014 Honda


The anomaly years are 2006 and 2007. 2006 -It was Rossi's championship to lose than Nicky Hayden's to win, Nicky being more consistent. 2007 was when the 800cc rule came in and Stoner was untouchable on it. If you look across F1, the pattern is similar as well.

2000 Ferrari, 2001 Ferrari,2002 Ferrari,2003 Ferrari, 2004 Ferrari
2005 Renault, 2006 Renault
2007 Ferrari, 2008 Ferrari
2009 Brawn
2010 Red Bull,c2011 Red Bull,2012 Red Bull, 2013 Red Bull
2014 Mercedes, 2015 Mercedes (99%)

The anomaly year is 2009. We know that Brawn won due to the double diffuser technology in 2009.

So the pattern is obvious isnt it? Can a rider win without technology? The answer lies in the pattern. So the question is did Rossi (any racer for that matter) actually win the championship or was it the bike? The question to ponder.