[pratyush6]

Originally Posted by GTO

I think this is a pretty interesting development.
Why don't we compare their prices to the per capita income of their respective countries?
India = $1,500
USA = $53,000

It is interesting but can I infer anything about either these companies? Looking at that statement it gives you a false impression about quality and or following of the bike worldwide. Its like Hero Honda sells more motorcycle than Harleys. - Might, so what?

Originally Posted by GTO

We're talking of manufacturers, not models (BTW, Mercedes does sell more cars than Maruti globally).

Correct, but is there anything to even infer out of it?

Originally Posted by smartcat

If you are introducing per capital income into the equation, well, Harley Davidson is a market leader in USA, while Royal Enfield is not a market leader in India - there in lies the difference.

Correct. However, I do not think there is any competition to Enfields at all in India. No bike probably have the frenzied following as the Bullet does. No manufacturer has come up with anything even remotely close. However with the arrival of Triumph and Harleys in India, we might see some competition. We already see quite a few of those in the tier 1 cities.

I mean I would probably buy a Harley some day but will I ever discard my Bullet - No, Never. Yes, it has its niggles and off days but nothing comes quite close to riding a Bullet and its thump

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by GTO

I think this is a pretty interesting development.

Yes, Royal Enfield is much cheaper than Harley. So? If you have to look at it that way, here's another perspective. Royal Enfield sells a majority of its production in India, as Harley does in the USA.

Why don't we compare their prices to the per capita income of their respective countries?

India = $1,500
USA = $53,000

And the fact is, Royal Enfield is a bigger motorcycle manufacturer on these charts than Harley Davidson.

+1 to this from my side. I was thinking on similar lines and was about to post on this thread before I came across GTO's post. What Harley Davidson is for Americans is what RE is to Indians, kindly note that I am in no way generalizing this statement.

Like Harley Davidson has a cult following in the USA and worldwide there is a similar cult following for RE in India and worldwide. If we look at both the companies they have similar stories as posted elsewhere on this thread. I remember watching a documentary called Boys Toys on Harley Davidson on the History Channel where they showed how Harley Davidson bounced back from the brink of bankruptcy and became a financially healthy company by launching new models with modern engine configurations like EFi, liquid cooled, etc. engines. This success story is so very similar to RE's turnaround story here in India.

This is indeed a proud moment for us to see RE race past Harley Davidson in terms of sales. RE already has shown its interest in bigger capacity V-twin and Parallel twin engines although all this is still a speculation. But if it does come with multi-cylinder higher capacity engines then the game will change. We can already see many global manufacturers getting into smaller capacity engines from 350 to 500cc, TVS BMW are the latest entrants and Harley Davidson too is planning to launch a 500cc engine motorcycle. This development shows there is a huge potential for this market not only in the USA but also worldwide.

Last but not the least most of the riders here in India consider RE motorcycles as cruisers similar to their American counterpart riders who consider Harley Davidson as their cruiser. I in now way belittle RE vis a vis Harley Davidson as they both equally enjoy their cult status and fan following. The proof of this can be seen in Dheeraj's (dkaile) ownership thread (Harley Davidson Superlow XL883L - The Comprehensive Review) where he is cheering this news of RE overtaking Harley Davidson in worldwide sales.

[Jeroen]

I'm not really a biker at all. More into (classic) cars. I own a restored 1975 Bullet here in Delhi. More because it was easier to get a classic bullet than a classic car. Do enjoy it though and have raked up about 10.000km thumping around India.

Before coming to India, we lived in Kansas City. Just north of KC is one of the HD factories. My daughter and me took a tour. Very interesting. But also, as modern manufacturing goes this was still a very basic operation with lots of folks on the assembly line. I would love to see the RE factory. Based on my own experience And talking to new RE owners I would say, RE quality could still be improved. From what I saw in the USA the same was true for the HD. Its probably also my European background, I don't think much on the quality of modern USA cars either. although they have improved considerable over the last years.

One thing is very different. In the USA a nicely kitted out HD will easily cost more then a mid size family saloon. You can order every option on your RE here in India, but I don't think you will reach that price point ever.

To put things a bit in perspective. The average cost of a RE, say 1.5 lakh will get you a very nice Sports bicycle in Europe!

[bj96]

~10 years ago when I acquired my Electra they were doing some 30K units per year. In ten years they have grown ~10 times is surely an achievement. Not sure what is HD's growth (in terms of sales) during same period?

-BJ

[PrideRed]

I dont think it's exactly an apple to orange comparison. Royal Enfield GT retails for about 5500 bucks in UK where as an Iron 883 retails at about 7500 bucks.

Yes i know Iron 883 is the starting model of Harley and GT is the top end of Royal Enfield. What i can call is Washington apple to Shimla apple comparison

[anjan_c2007]

The Royal Enfield comparison with Harley Davidson is not quite tenable. A RE is a RE - its classic and among the best, budget relic British bike that one can buy.

A Harley being compared with a RE in the sales sweepstakes is not what one expects. Harleys are a class apart and its best to compare it with bikes from the same or nearly the same class.

[rjun04]

I think the big change for RE is the new factory. A lot of buyers (including me) were put off by the long waiting periods (starting at 6 months upto 1 year). Now, I believe it's down to 1 or 2 months at best.
I wish they started looking at reliability instead of just sales numbers though!

[Gansan]

As for sales numbers, how do they stack up against our Hero, Honda, TVS, Yamaha and Suzuki? I would be surprised if they are anything above the last, or last but one.

I am sure the number of TVS 50s sold will easily exceed Enfields. Does that mean anything?

[SmartCat]

Investors are all going gaga over Royal Enfield's sales performance for quite a few years now. Check out the stock price of Eicher Motors (parent of Royal Enfield).

Most of the investor confidence in the stock is because of Royal Enfield & perhaps their Volvo business. What investors like is that Royal Enfield has a market share of just 3 or 4% and increasing at a scorching pace. Their margins are extremely high - 25% or so. Hero Honda, Bajaj & TVS Motors can only dream about such margins.



Rs. 1 Lac invested in Eicher Motors stock in 2000 would now be worth about Rs. 6.6 Crores.

[stanjohn123]

You know what , let RE start building bikes > 500cc like 750s and 1000s and let HD start building < 750cc bikes (which they will eventually if they want some Market share) and I can bet you the market share will be 80%/20% in favor of RE.

It's because RE makes bikes that are more VFM even with the same heritage , technology and cult following. HD's are just way over priced ! They are not giving you anything special for it.

[ACM]

I respect TOI - it is the largest selling English language newspaper in the world for some reason. And let's not disrespect the Indians who read it way more than the other options. Everyone has their own favorite and is entitled to it.

I also feel the article is relevant. RE is to us what Harley is to the USA.

Yes priced differently but harleys don't in my view deserve to be priced thrice as much maybe double was reasonable inspite of the quality of materials and engine capacity difference.

RE is growing at a phenomenal pace and with introduction of their planned newer models they should do us proud.

RE has planned a 750 CC vtwin as well as 400 and 600 CC models with significantly higher torque. Am sure all of these will be within 3L OTR.

Numbers matter they are in a similar lifestyle category and if the car manufacturers are ranked by numbers so should bikes. Sadly RE is in a unique category but definitely their products are better compared with harleys than to honda and hero or TVS.

[voyageur]

I think the POV of Times was different. The whole globe considers Harley as a benchmark in motorcycle industry producing cruiser bikes. When RE gets compared to Harley, they just wanted to highlight the growth of RE in the recent years. I hope RE continues there good work.

I have started seeing RE classics on the streets of UAE. I was amazed the first time, now I have seen close to 5-6.

I am a Bullet fan too.

Cheers!

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by stanjohn123

It's because RE makes bikes that are more VFM even with the same heritage , technology and cult following. HD's are just way over priced ! They are not giving you anything special for it.

That is one good point. If one wants a 350cc, there is nothing else at that price point. But Harley I think is a bigger brand, though I personally feel both of them are selling just an attitude and hype at a huge price! Suppose Harley bikes are priced close to Enfileds, I think most Enfield fans will switch to the former. Right now it is a poor man's Harley, more or less.

[SnS_12]

Today, almost every Royal Enfield owner dreams of owning a Harley as his next bike or maybe sometime in the future. But does a Harley owner ever thinks of buying a RE bike as his next upgrade?

When and if that day ever comes, when Harley owners move to RE, then we can truly say that Royal Enfield has overtaken Harley Davidson

[GTO]

Originally Posted by smartcat

Auto companies are ranked by revenues, marketshare and profits too. Depends on the article you read.

Correct. There's also a ranking for auto companies on productivity & efficiency. When was the last time enthusiasts read one of those?

Fact is, 'total sales' is the most common metric to rank an automotive company. Our monthly sales & analysis threads have been the most popular over the last 5 years. What do we discuss in there again?

If units sold is such an important factor, we should all be in awe with SAIC, Dongfeng Motors, Geely, Great Wall Motors, BYD Motors etc. Their sales numbers are pretty impressive indeed.

I already am (in awe of the Chinese market & their car companies). A post I made earlier to highlight this fact:

Originally Posted by GTO

1960’s : "Japanese cars are too cheap, flimsy, lack depth in engineering, are a copy of other cars and will never make the cut."

1980's : "Korean cars are too cheap, flimsy, lack depth in engineering, are a copy of other cars and will never make the cut."

2000's : "Chinese cars are too cheap, flimsy, lack depth in engineering, are a copy of other cars and will never make the cut."

See a pattern?

Originally Posted by smartcat

Rs. 1 Lac invested in Eicher Motors stock in 2000 would now be worth about Rs. 6.6 Crores.

Man, instead of spending all that money in my MBA, should've just invested the tuition fees in this stock. Would've come out richer