[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad

With all due respect; I don't think I can

Sad. Basically makes a conversation meaningless then, with all due respect.

Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad

I have no skin in the game here.

Unfortunately, I don't think so. Looks like -

Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad

I have an awesome 390 that is very very close to what I want from my bike.

Seems to be the whole crux of your anger or posts.

Anyways, the answer to most of your questions are already in the previous post already. Just read it once again, if your questions are to me. Or I'd let others carry on with the conversations further.

Peace. Ride safe.

[Thebat]

Having read this entire thread in one slot, I must say that some of the people are jumping to answer questions on reliability and the niggle free nature of the motorcycle.

These people need to understand that the very same bike built by the very same TVS is exported all over the world and has got nothing but praise for it.

This is not something that will land new overnight and we will not be used as fodder for their testing as these bikes have been in sale for more than a year and are selling well in foreign markets as well.

So please do enlighten me how the same bike will need to be tested again by us armchair critics for reliability or niggle free properties?

If anyone is enamoured by KTM so much then please be, no one has told they are bad machines, they are fantastic machines, drool worthy and awe inspiring at the price but having lived with a Royal Enfield most of my riding life I know the importance of having a bike that doesn't stop randomly on the road and one which just functions the way it should.

KTM's are fantastic machines but being close to 3 lakhs on road here in bangalore, we should expect that we sleep in peace knowing that our bikes will perform without the hitch on the next morning commute, this is not the case with the new 390.

If the Adv390 comes with the instrument cluster found on the Duke 250 and the works of an adventure bike with normal halogen headlights, trust me I would be the first one to put my money on It. But until then in its current form the 390 is a gamble to people like me.

So there in the gap is where BMW might shine with these twins.

[TRR]

Originally Posted by Thebat

Having read this entire thread in one slot, I must say that some of the people are jumping to answer questions on reliability and the niggle free nature of the motorcycle.

I certainly believe that the BMW has potential in the current market scenario, especially if they manage to launch it at the price claimed by Autocar. It could take the fight straight to the Duke 390 and lead to a very interesting battle in the Indian markets.

But saying that the bike has got nothing but praise abroad? That's a very, very far-fetched claim you seem to be making. All you need to do is to google for BMW G310R issues and you'll find a plethora of them (including problems coolant leaking, issues with random warning lights, radiator fan failures in warmer countries like Thailand, ABS controller issues, bike refusing to start and a myriad variety of software glitches). All BMW bikes being shipped out are quality checked by BMW's German engineers at the TVS factory. So going by your logic, this would mean BMW's QC is at a really bad stage right now and we should really worry about it, if this QC is not done for bikes going to be sold in the Indian market. Also note that these warning lights and software glitches are with a regular digital display on the bike and not a TFT console.

If you are basing this claim of "nothing but praise" on the first ride reviews by auto mags, then the same can also be said of the 2017 Duke 390.

But then again, I would not judge their bikes and expect it to be "niggle free" when it launched in India. It's best to wait for them to start selling these bikes out in the market and then comment on the same.

Originally Posted by Thebat

but having lived with a Royal Enfield most of my riding life I know the importance of having a bike that doesn't stop randomly on the road and one which just functions the way it should.

I own a 2017 Duke 390 and have clocked 9970 km. Never has the bike randomly stopped on the road. I have faced the ECU error issue, but it's always only when the bike is stationary and is rectified with turning the ignition key off and on again. I agree there are issues with the console. I have faced them as well. I also agree that the bike is far from perfect. But most of the problems stem from the console and none of these issues are so severe that they leave me stranded on the road. These are minor niggles, which KTM ought to fix, but are in no way so damaging to the riding experience that one should believe the KTM is unreliable and worry about whether their bike will work on the commute the next day.

Originally Posted by rbp

As for KTM service, I have experienced it twice and I better not talk about it. If BMW can give me a reliable bike and good service, I don't mind paying the extra premium. KTM's are no more VFM bikes, the new one costs 2.97 OTR and that too with a bag full of issues.

Drawing on your logic, all Kawasaki dealers in the country do not deserve to be talked about simply because the Bengaluru dealer has stories of customers being taken for a ride and arrogant salespersons. I will point out the Mekhri Circle ASC has a bad reputation and maybe you should try the Banashankari or Indiranagar ASCs, both of which have a decent reputation for helping out their customers.

Also, no more VFM? How is it not VFM when you have features on it that are still not being introduced into its price segment nor in the more expensive Ninja 300, R3 and Benelli like the TFT console, Ride-by-wire throttle system, Metzeler tyres and the 4-piston callipers (now on the RR310)? The TFT console has its issues, but as stated above, so does BMW with its digital display. Not VFM enough when compared to the BMW which offers neither the TFT, the RBW nor the Metz and is still expected to have nearly the same ex-showroom price? This combined with the fact that BMW Motorrad so far has only one showroom and ASC in a city like Bengaluru to deal with what could possibly sell as much as the Duke 390, could surely worry someone who might face issues with the G310R.

At the risk of sounding biased towards KTM since I own one, it is simply astonishing to read these negative reviews on facing minor issues and look at a free pass being given to BMW simply because of the brand association. I am also not against the G310R and believe it could be a worthy competitor to the Duke. There is every chance that BMW could resolve these issues before releasing it in India and more power to them if they manage it. But to write off KTM as "no longer VFM" and "bikes which make you worry about tomorrow's commute" is simply not mandated IMO.

[timuseravan]

Originally Posted by Thebat

If anyone is enamoured by KTM so much then please be, no one has told they are bad machines

It seems more people here are enamored with BWM without having owned one than people are with KTM who actually own and use one.
Are you seriously comparing quality issue of RE with KTM? I have years and thousand of kilometers of riding experience on both. Apart from myself, I know quiet a few people who own Duke, even the 2017 variants. And I can assure you none of us is loosing sleep wondering if our next morning commute will be possible or not.

Also do a google search for BMW 310 issues before claiming "they have no problems whatsoever".

Originally Posted by TRR

At the risk of sounding biased towards KTM since I own one, it is simply astonishing to read these negative reviews on facing minor issues and look at a free pass being given to BMW simply because of the brand association. I am also not against the G310R and believe it could be a worthy competitor to the Duke. There is every chance that BMW could resolve these issues before releasing it in India and more power to them if they manage it. But to write off KTM as "no longer VFM" and "bikes which make you worry about tomorrow's commute" is simply not mandated IMO.

Cannot agree more!

[theredliner]

Originally Posted by Thebat

KTM's are fantastic machines but being close to 3 lakhs on road here in bangalore, we should expect that we sleep in peace knowing that our bikes will perform without the hitch on the next morning commute, this is not the case with the new 390.

I have a 2016 KTM RC 390 which has been as reliable as a bike in this price range can be. Apart from slight fogging of the speedo at the top near the shift light, which was resolved by the ASC, there have been zero issues with the bike.

It has been used mostly for commute inside Bengaluru city. It has never shutdown randomly, heck, it hasn't even shown overheat warning once till now, forget about worrying if it will start or not for the next morning commute. (On a lighter note: Coming to starting, I had left my bikes untouched for close to a month (that's bad, I know) during rains last year and after that, the KTM came to life after 3 seconds of cranking and the TVS Apache took 20 kicks to start )

The only worry that the KTM gives me about next morning's commute when I'm in bed the previous night would be the wrist pain that may be caused due to the RC's sitting posture if I get stuck in BLR traffic

I have two TVS vehicles at home too. Trust me when I say I know well about the quality of vehicles that come out of their factory and how much they care about their customers. The KTM has been more trouble free than my Apache was when it was this old.

Looking at the automobile scenario these days, it is better to give a year for all niggles to get ironed out before jumping the gun irrespective of the brand and it's country of origin. I mean, imagine how someone must have felt to have his gearbox opened up by a guy in ASC after paying 20+L for his brand new R1.

[Dodge_Viper]

Guys, this is turning out to be a BMW vs KTM vs xyz vs pqr thread. Can we please stick to the major updates related to GS310 .

Also it would be good if links are shared for the niggles faced by BMW worldwide. Would really help potential future customers here.

[timuseravan]

Originally Posted by Dodge_Viper

Also it would be good if links are shared for the niggles faced by BMW worldwide. Would really help potential future customers here.

This link should be helpful.

[Dodge_Viper]

Originally Posted by timuseravan

This link should be helpful.

Nice /s there. I know the steps thanks. Anyways these issues will definitely popup when BMW starts selling here. I am more surprised with the type of niggles which are been seen. Is this with other motorrad bikes as well? Or because of, well "Made in India".

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

One sold his KTM due to niggles and another has the new 390, which although is a stunning piece of machinery - has a lot of QC niggles particularly relating to the console. Interested? Hope atleast one of them chips in soon.

Does that explain its sales figures outside India? The RC8 or the SuperDuke and the likes? Are they hot sellers, how do they do against competition and why?

[Thebat]

Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad

And why do you think we should not be discussing the probable competition for this product? I think someone has posted a link to some of the issues faced by owners in other parts of the world. You will find more if you search. Google is your friend

Points taken Urban_Nomad,

I should have been more discriptive in my post sorry if u have caused the confusion above.

My thoughts were more aligned towards how BMW might position their products by finding a gap that KTM might not be able to fill in the minds of potential customers.

Now don't get me wrong I have never said that KTM's are inferior products, they are amazing in every aspect and the best value for money products you can buy in the space.

My only view if you read till the end is that BMW must find a niche in the beginning to target as the number of their showrooms is limited and the brand itself could be a double edged sword for them with some waiting with bated breath to get one for the badge and some running away fearing the perceived high service costs.

At the end of the day I am in the market to replace my ageing royal enfield and that is where the reference came from.

Keeping the hostility towards the brands aside I would always prefer more and more products launching which will cause such flutter in the market as for me as a customer it is always good.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by Sheel

Does that explain its sales figures outside India? The RC8 or the SuperDuke and the likes? Are they hot sellers, how do they do against competition and why?

I believe they have done well! Similar story as with most European v/s Japanese products - what KTM lacks with respect to reliability, they make up in terms of solid engineering and fun. RC8, SuperDuke etc and even most other KTMs are known to be as wild as it can get.

Same case in India too. I doubt anything else comes for being mad fun, close to the KTM 200s and 390s at the price points they are at! Not even the GS310s.

Originally Posted by Thebat

My thoughts were more aligned towards how BMW might position their products by finding a gap that KTM might not be able to fill in the minds of potential customers.

Bingo! Exactly what I said, which have been unnecessarily dragged into a KTM debate!

BMW Motorrad has 6 dealers across India. I dont see them becoming a volume player like KTM, trying to do numbers similar to KTM, trying to want to be competitive against KTM - simply because they can't handle the volumes like KTM. What if they undercut the prices, then what? Where will the sales and service happen? . Or people think BMW Motorrad will start opening multiple stores in every nook and corner of the city and rural areas?

And they wouldn't want their existing dealerships to be flooded with 310 customers either because that ruins it for all the premium bikes as well which they sell in the same limited number of showrooms, again unlike KTM where the 390s are the most premium bikes on offer.

Instead, they might simply go for a more niche positioning - above KTM and leaving enough space that only some people might prefer it, and making sure the 310 customers get a more premium experience (repeating again as some people get confused - premium experience) in comparison to the Orange.

PS - The only way I see that they could have gone for numbers and a direct attack against KTM is via TVS Dealerships. Now with the Apache RR310 and possibly more future derivatives of the platform, that's not going to happen.

[sukiwa]

Sharing an article by Shumi on bike pricing & related outcry. It's not directly related to this thread, however felt appropriate to post it here due to recent discussion.

[drive_angry]

Hey fellas,

I just got a call from my BMW dealer that they are accepting 50K as the advance token money for the G310 twins. He further said since we are taking money without even showing the bikes, token money is completely refundable and we would be provided with written contract for the same. He already had the exact dates for the launch but he said he could not share the dates because of internal confidentiality. I told him that my birthday falls on 22nd July and I intent to pick either G310r or 390 Duke on my birthday to which he said it will DEFINATELY be available provided if I prebook it with token amount. Since I was too keen on knowing the launch dates, he gave me a slight hint that its around 15th July

Further more, I asked him about service interval and service costs to which he said he would know about it on 25th June as that is when dealer training starts in Gurgaon.

[driverabhi]

Originally Posted by drive_angry

Hey fellas,

Since I was too keen on knowing the launch dates, he gave me a slight hint that its around 15th July

By any chance, did you ask the expected price for the bike? I am interested in G310R and I even spoke to the BMW Motorrad Bangalore dealer today. He told that the bookings will begin by mid June and deliveries might start by mid July. But the price that he is telling is around 3.5L on the road. Did you get any chance to talk about the pricing with your dealer?

[drive_angry]

Originally Posted by driverabhi

By any chance, did you ask the expected price for the bike? I am interested in G310R and I even spoke to the BMW Motorrad Bangalore dealer today. He told that the bookings will begin by mid June and deliveries might start by mid July. But the price that he is telling is around 3.5L on the road. Did you get any chance to talk about the pricing with your dealer?

Hi, yes I did ask him about the same. He said prices will be between 3.5 to 4L but he was also not sure. He was going on and on about how BMW is a premium bike and stands class apart from its segment rivals and hence it would be costlier

I had a also called Lutyens BMW, Delhi. That chap had worked with Krishna BMW, Chandigarh. He said they are just collecting the bookings and as soon as booking opens officially, they will punch your bookings in the system.