[IshaanIan]

Would a price of 2-2.5 lakhs really be that bad? The product will definitely have its advantages over the RE in terms of quality, versatility, economy and performance.

[payeng]

Originally Posted by navin_v8

This has been a part of many a discussions on not only this forum but elsewhere too. The fact is none of the big 4 Japanese brands has the same appeal and aura(at least for its target audience) as that of the Harley Davidson no matter how good or technically advanced the Japanese motorcycles are. This is even though the Japanese cruisers are relatively cheaper than HD to own and maintain and that is for the world market. HD is a success in India as all the Big 4 Japanese companies have chose to ignore the cruiser market in India and HD is on the roll and rightly so as it has a first mover advantage. Talking about the Indian market, it is a fact that none of the manufacturers you mentioned above can compete with RE in terms of pricing in Retro Classic category, so Bajaj it is.


We are talking here about R&D of an imported motorcycle by Bajaj and not about launching price and power figures. Which other Indian manufacturer has imported a retro classic bike for R&D purpose in recent times? I think it is only Bajaj which has done it as they want to take on RE at the retro classic game.

So what will stop Bajaj from pursuing a retro classic market? if I take your above statement into consideration?

Read above. Indian market is different than world market where cost dictates the market. Bajaj is the right candidate to take on RE with the Japanese big 4 knowingly ignoring the Indian cruiser and retro classic market.

Oh ok then what was your purpose when you mentioned about words like poser, manliness, etc, while addressing RE buyers?

Brother:

>> Maruti made its mark and stood out with the 800 when the Ambassador was around

>> Hyundai made its mark and stood out with the "Tall Boy" Santro when the Maruti 800 was invincible

>> Mahindra made mark and stood out with the Bolero / Scorpio

>> Renault made its mark and stood out with the Duster

>> Honda cars made its mark and stood out with the City

>> Toyota with the Innova and lately with the Fortuner



Moral of the Story:

In Business it is greatly rewarding to stand out / apart, dare to be different to make a mark.. make sales, make profit.. by spending the least / with least effort. Creating a brand identity that protects you from the competition.

By chasing a category created (and ruled) by someone one else... one will only use of lot of precious energy / resources with no guarantee of success.

[Viju]

Bringing in a vehicle for R&D purpose hardly means that it is the same model that is going to be developed. It may just be for bench-marking or reference for a future product. I have a strong feeling that this bike is not going to be launched in India.

Even if it is launched, I don't think reliability and quality alone will win it customers at a price tag of 2L+. After all, it is only a single cylinder, air-cooled, 250cc producing 20BHP. I don't see an advantage in those specs, over the REs. I doubt a Kawasaki retro single will have the desirability in India as opposed to the Enfields.

All said, Bajaj may be drawing up their own RE competitor and this bike may be used as inspiration for styling or performance. Only time will tell.

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by payeng

Brother:

>> Maruti made its mark and stood out with the 800 when the Ambassador was around

Mate the fact is there was no competition then to the Ambassador and Premier Padmini. The Maruti 800 struck a cord with our junta due to its reliability, low cost of ownership, relatively powerful engine, and yes among many others its Fuel Efficiency. So if Bajaj brings something into to the Retro Classic market dominated by RE at present will be good, no?

>> Hyundai made its mark and stood out with the "Tall Boy" Santro when the Maruti 800 was invincible

Again the market was saturated at that time and very protective due to socialistic economy. Hyundai came in post 1990's when liberalism opened its gates in India. People found a better package in Santro in terms of engine, space, cost of ownership, etc. So if Bajaj brings something into to the Retro Classic market dominated by RE at present will be good, no?

>> Mahindra made mark and stood out with the Bolero / Scorpio

And why did they do that? Answer is if they hadn't experimented they would have gone the HM and Premier way. So what Bajaj will do to the Retro Classic market which is dominated by RE will be good, no? They can stand out from what they are making at present. And looking at volumes done by Bajaj in their other offerings it wouldn't hurt them to take a chance with a retro classic motorcycle similar to how Mahindra had volumes from MM540DP, Armada, etc. which helped them venture into new areas by offering Scorpio and Bolero when they were launched. Bajaj might be looking at a similar strategy wherein they would take on a new category which is untouched by any other Indian manufacturer besides RE.

>> Renault made its mark and stood out with the Duster

>> Honda cars made its mark and stood out with the City

This is like a double edged sword for any manufacturer and can backfire to an extent that they remain one model manufacturer which has happened with both the example you have given above. Back in the days when RE had launched Taurus Diesel Bullet it had no competition until companies like Sooraj came in with their cheaper models with the same Greaves diesel engine and started giving RE a tough time in that market. The sales of Sooraj diesel motorcycle well surpassed that of RE Taurus. I know this is not a very good example but still it happened. Why did RE venture into OHC motorcycles with their Himalayan offering which is unlike any other motorcycle they have in their stable? Answer is simple they know that they cant sustain forever with their existing models, lest the ghost of 1990's comes back to haunt them. They have created a new category on purpose built ADV Tourer. So if Bajaj breaks even from their conventional offerings like they did with NS200 and AS200 and very soon CS400 and also bring in a Retro Classic market dominated by RE at present will be good, no?

>> Toyota with the Innova and lately with the Fortuner.

Toyota had a first mover advantage with the Innova being a proper 7 seater MUV and others followed in. Maruti Ertiga(diesel) if not much has been able to dent the Innova market and also held off competition from Honda Mobilio, Renault Lodgy, etc. Similarly if Bajaj also brings in a Retro Classic model dominated by RE at present will be good, no?

Fortuner was launched in India(at a competitive price) when there were very little players in that category and the T badge brought in the numbers. But that didn't stop Ford from offering their Endeavour in its current avatar which by the way is doing some numbers. Again nowhere as close to T Fortuner but yes it is doing some numbers. Similarly if Bajaj also brings in a Retro Classic model dominated by RE at present will be good, no?

Moral of the Story:

In Business it is greatly rewarding to stand out / apart, dare to be different to make a mark.. make sales, make profit.. by spending the least / with least effort. Creating a brand identity that protects you from the competition.

By chasing a category created (and ruled) by someone one else... one will only use of lot of precious energy / resources with no guarantee of success.

Your posts highly contradictive mate from the examples you've given above and in previous posts and I quote, "But that did not stop Mahindra from falling into the temptation of chasing the same market with "same type" of product did it? ". Did Hyundai lose out by choosing a greatly competitive hatchback market from Maruti? or Did Maruti lose out by offering the Ertiga to challenge the might Innnova?

Back in the days when Bajaj was known for their no-nonsense scooters and commuters they launched the Pulsar(for which they are known to start performance motorcycle category to their stable to this day) in competition to the mighty Hero Honda CBZ. Did they not succeed while taking the plunge from scooters to performance motorcycles? If it didn't stop Mahindra from taking on Hero as well as Honda in the commuter motorcycle and scooter segment what will stop Bajaj with multiple offerings in terms of commuters, performance motorcycles, cruisers, etc. from introducing a retro classic to take on RE? Unlike Mahindra two wheelers Bajaj has been around for a long time since their inception and have doled out impressive packages at an affordable cost. The biggest example is how they offered the KTM Duke 390 at less than half the price of what it is offered outside of India. Similarly I wouldn't be surprised if they manage to target the retro classic market with the Estrella.

Moral: You win some you lose some. Like Bajaj did when they introduced the Eliminator which is now known as Avenger(still in production and doing good numbers) in competition to RE Tbird and Yamaha launched Enticer without much success. Did this event stop Yamaha from launching their FZ(success for Yamaha when launched) model in the heavily crowded 150cc category? Did it stop RE from breaking from their Retro Classic image and venturing into an unknown category with the Himalayan with an all new chassis and engine? With the bookings that RE Himalayan has shown over the months it was a good decision. Similarly if Bajaj brings in a Retro Classic model dominated by RE at present it will be good, no?

[payeng]

SO ALL YOU SAY:

Make a Retro Classic (la Royal Enfield), with better reliability and competitive pricing (compared to the Royal Enfield) - Presto..!! Laugh all the way to the Bank.

SIMPLE, RIGHT?

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Your posts highly contradictive mate from the examples you've given above and in previous posts and I quote, "But that did not stop Mahindra from falling into the temptation of chasing the same market with "same type" of product did it? ".

Not contradictory: Mahindra should have stayed away from the temptation by not listening to the one who suggested them, "Lets make a Splendor/Passion, but with better/innovative Features and Competitive Pricing". I meant that Mahindra DID NOT stay away.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Did Hyundai lose out by choosing a greatly competitive hatchback market from Maruti?

With the Eon, Hyundai is still far away from Alto numbers.. moreover Eon's position as a challenger will always be under threat from competition - Like Renault Kwid... unlike the Maruti Alto which is still comfortable at the top.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

or Did Maruti lose out by offering the Ertiga to challenge the might Innnova?

Ertiga is NOT a direct competitor to the Innova. The Ertiga is a Flanking strategy from Maruti.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Back in the days when Bajaj was known for their no-nonsense scooters and commuters they launched the Pulsar(for which they are known to start performance motorcycle category to their stable to this day) in competition to the mighty Hero Honda CBZ. Did they not succeed while taking the plunge from scooters to performance motorcycles?

Back in those days, it was the start.. the beginning.. it was an open game and a level playing field.

CBZ had not Dominated the Segment for 15-20 years..

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Moral: You win some you lose some. Like Bajaj did when they introduced the Eliminator which is now known as Avenger(still in production and doing good numbers) in competition to RE Tbird and Yamaha launched Enticer without much success.

The T Bird is a different product than the Avenger... the Avenger after all these years (since 2001) has only seen some good numbers off late.. just because there was no direct competition helped it survive at Bajaj

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Did this event stop Yamaha from launching their FZ(success for Yamaha when launched) model in the heavily crowded 150cc category?

The FZ was a brilliant "Flanking" strategy from Yamaha.. it was and still is different compared to the leader the Pulsar 150/180. It still does not compete head on with the Pulsar (which by the way still dominates even after 15 years).

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Did it stop RE from breaking from their Retro Classic image and venturing into an unknown category with the Himalayan with an all new chassis and engine? With the bookings that RE Himalayan has shown over the months it was a good decision.

The Himalayan is a brave attempt at a segment that is totally new in India.. but I have my own reservations about its appeal in India (give it 2 years to get the complete picture).

Similarly the Continental GT is another brave attempt.. but after 2 years the sales numbers are not flattering.


Nevertheless, even if the demand is small initially for the Himalayan and the Continental GT with Zero Competition (much like the situation of the Eliminator/Avenger during the initial years).. they can least HIBENERNATE the lean days till "hopefully" there would a healthy demand for them.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Similarly if Bajaj brings in a Retro Classic model dominated by RE at present it will be good, no?

With Royal Enfield Lording over the Segment the last 8 years (time when the Classic arrived and changed RE fortunes).. Mr. Bajaj will not be interested in a direct confrontation.

Maybe a "Flanking" strategy with the CS400 is most likely (like I had mentioned earlier).

[payeng]

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Moral: You win some you lose some.[/b]

Like Bajaj did when they introduced the Eliminator which is now known as Avenger(still in production and doing good numbers) in competition to RE Tbird and Yamaha launched Enticer without much success.

Did this event stop Yamaha from launching their FZ(success for Yamaha when launched) model in the heavily crowded 150cc category?

Did it stop RE from breaking from their Retro Classic image and venturing into an unknown category with the Himalayan with an all new chassis and engine? With the bookings that RE Himalayan has shown over the months it was a good decision.

Similarly if Bajaj brings in a Retro Classic model dominated by RE at present it will be good, no?

You do not seem have a clear vision. You seem to suggest "Try random/many things.. a few might not click / few might click".



All I am saying is that-

1. "Avoid Direct Conflict with the Leader/Opponent" - Offense Strategy - Unless you are mentally and financially ready for a bloodbath

2. Best would be to "Find a Niche, a new segment that the leader/opponent is not present / isn't interested" - Flanking Strategy - And Hope the niche / new category grows bigger in the future



I think "Sun Tzu" and "Acharya Chanakya" preaches something similar

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by payeng

SO ALL YOU SAY:

Make a Retro Classic (la Royal Enfield), with better reliability and competitive pricing (compared to the Royal Enfield) - Presto..!! Laugh all the way to the Bank.

SIMPLE, RIGHT?

Relax dude I didn't say that I just said IF Bajaj can launch a competitor in the Retro Classic category against RE which is been said by honchos from Bajaj as well then nothing is stopping them. Also that they have imported a retro classic Estrella for R&D connects the dots. Bajaj took a chance with Eliminator in the cruiser category and it paid off. Bajaj has done it with NS200 and AS200 and soon to be launched CS400 with KTM derived engines so what will stop them from using Estrella platform for lauching a retro classic of their own was all I was saying. Also why will people not choose better reliability and competitive pricing from a manufacturer like Bajaj? Even your example Hyundai Santro had a tough time picking up sales numbers from the word go. Eventually it did catch up. I did not mention anything about overnight success of Bajaj retro classic mate, if it does then great for Bajaj.

Not contradictory: Mahindra should have stayed away from the temptation by not listening to the one who suggested them, "Lets make a Splendor/Passion, but with better/innovative Features and Competitive Pricing". I meant that Mahindra DID NOT stay away.

With the Eon, Hyundai is still far away from Alto numbers.. moreover Eon's position as a challenger will always be under threat from competition - Like Renault Kwid... unlike the Maruti Alto which is still comfortable at the top.

Again twisting words by giving examples, earlier you said Santro turned the tables on Maruti 800 when it was launched with its tall boy design. Like I said you win some you lose some. Hyundai has been doing particularly good in performance hatchback segment against Maruti, I can go on an on....

Ertiga is NOT a direct competitor to the Innova. The Ertiga is a Flanking strategy from Maruti.

Ertiga is marketed as a MUV as is the Innova. It is a 7 seater and comes with a diesel engine as well. If it does not compete with Innova then against who does it compete?

Back in those days, it was the start.. the beginning.. it was an open game and a level playing field.

Exactly someone had to start and CBZ did that at the beginning followed by an array of other 150cc models from other manufacturers. RE India has been in this business for the last 60 odd years in the same category as they have no competition. Someone has to start and I think the statement from Bajaj(and this Estrella import for R&D) makes it clear they are the ones who will start.

CBZ had not Dominated the Segment for 15-20 years..

I never said CBZ dominated the segment I just said that Bajaj launched the Pulsar against the CBZ, that's it. Someone took a chance and others followed.

The T Bird is a different product than the Avenger... the Avenger after all these years (since 2001) has only seen some good numbers off late.. just because there was no direct competition helped it survive at Bajaj

Many of the motoring magazines and journo's as well as buyers think the other way wherein the Avenger is seen as a competitor of Tbird as both are considered cruisers. There was a competition to Avenger in the form of Yamaha Enticer but it faired poorly and was brought down. Like Bajaj found an alternative crowd for its cruiser Avenger against RE Tbird they might also find an alternative crowd for its retro classic against RE.

The FZ was a brilliant "Flanking" strategy from Yamaha.. it was and still is different compared to the leader the Pulsar 150/180. It still does not compete head on with the Pulsar (which by the way still dominates even after 15 years).

Again it is the pricing advantage and wider service coverage that helps Pulsar over FZ. Flanking strategy or not by Yamaha they do not have too many motorcycles to boast about(related to success) so I think FZ was not about flanking but putting it in direct competition with pulsar and they did succeed at it even though Pulsar is still selling in higher numbers than FZ.

The Himalayan is a brave attempt at a segment that is totally new in India.. but I have my own reservations about its appeal in India (give it 2 years to get the complete picture).

You can have your reservations but where I see 6 months waiting period already and close to 200 bookings in the showroom I went for test riding it shows a different picture as to its "appeal in India".

Similarly the Continental GT is another brave attempt.. but after 2 years the sales numbers are not flattering.

Maybe in India but its doing good numbers in foreign markets.

Nevertheless, even if the demand is small initially for the Himalayan and the Continental GT with Zero Competition (much like the situation of the Eliminator/Avenger during the initial years).. they can least HIBENERNATE the lean days till "hopefully" there would a healthy demand for them.

As I said Eliminator/Avenger did have a competitor in the form of Enticer and AVL Tbird 350. Your point of hibernation makes its interesting for Bajaj to try it with the retro classic motorcycle as well like they did to their Boxer model by reviving it now.

With Royal Enfield Lording over the Segment the last 8 years (time when the Classic arrived and changed RE fortunes).. Mr. Bajaj will not be interested in a direct confrontation.

RE has the only huge pie in the retro classic motorcycle segment due to name, pricing and reach all of which even Bajaj has. I am not saying Bajaj WILL launch a retro classic for sure but scratching the surface will atleast make them realize if its worth it, like they did in cruiser category with Avenger.

Maybe a "Flanking" strategy with the CS400 is most likely (like I had mentioned earlier).

Yes flanking or whatever your jargon is. I never said Bajaj would come and wipe away RE. I just said they can consider it as there is no real competitor against RE.

Originally Posted by payeng

You do not seem have a clear vision. You seem to suggest "Try random/many things.. a few might not click / few might click".

Mate no need to get personal with my vision being broad or small. It is a fact that in today's market nothing is constant look at models launched and taken back some click some don't. A manufacturer does not rely on just one model for it to sustain. Bajaj itself has been a leader in launching so many models where some clicked and some failed. This is how a company works. Maruti has been launching a barrage of models right from SX4(which didn't do as good as expected) but they bounced back with Ciaz. I will repeat you win some you lose some.

All I am saying is that-

1. "Avoid Direct Conflict with the Leader/Opponent" - Offense Strategy - Unless you are mentally and financially ready for a bloodbath

How about having a soft launch and gauging whether the model is doing good or not. Then letting it go into hibernation in your words and launching it back when there is market for it. If Hyundai would've avoided direct confrontation with Maruti it wouldn't have been what it is today.

2. Best would be to "Find a Niche, a new segment that the leader/opponent is not present / isn't interested" - Flanking Strategy - And Hope the niche / new category grows bigger in the future

Carving a niche in the retro classic segment when you have all other category of motorcycles to cushion the impact will do no harm. Call it flanking, nudging or whatever.

[payeng]

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Relax dude I didn't say that I just said IF Bajaj can launch a competitor in the Retro Classic category against RE which is been said by honchos from Bajaj as well then nothing is stopping them

And I am exactly giving my reasons why Bajaj won't launch a "Retro Classic".

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Bajaj took a chance with Eliminator in the cruiser category and it paid off.

Only because there was no direct competitor for all these years.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Bajaj has done it with NS200 and AS200 and soon to be launched CS400 with KTM derived engines so what will stop them from using Estrella platform for lauching a retro classic of their own was all I was saying.

The 200 and 373 cc engines were developed at Akurdi with the Vendors around Chakan and put together in the Chakan plant.

By the way: Bajaj has 48% stake in KTM and None in Kawasaki.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Also why will people not choose better reliability and competitive pricing from a manufacturer like Bajaj?

I know.. consumers are strange no?

The Japanese Cruisers are so much better than the Harleys.. but still even the foreign customers don't seem to prefer them over the Harleys.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Even your example Hyundai Santro had a tough time picking up sales numbers from the word go. Eventually it did catch up. I did not mention anything about overnight success of Bajaj retro classic mate, if it does then great for Bajaj.

The Santro had a differentiating Tall Boy design.

Suggest something differentiated for the "Bajaj Retro Classic".. apart from quality & reliability

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Ertiga is marketed as a MUV as is the Innova. It is a 7 seater and comes with a diesel engine as well. If it does not compete with Innova then against who does it compete?

Forget the marketing mumbo: Ertiga starts at 6.18 Lakhs, Innova starts at 13.21 lakhs.

I am no car guy but visually both belong to different segments altogether.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Exactly someone had to start and CBZ did that at the beginning followed by an array of other 150cc models from other manufacturers.

RE India has been in this business for the last 60 odd years in the same category as they have no competition. Someone has to start and I think the statement from Bajaj(and this Estrella import for R&D) makes it clear they are the ones who will start.

Like you said the CBZ did at the beginning.. and RE has been on for 60 years.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

I never said CBZ dominated the segment I just said that Bajaj launched the Pulsar against the CBZ, that's it. Someone took a chance and others followed.

Something that can definitely happen during the initial stages.. very very difficult with an established leader.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Many of the motoring magazines and journo's as well as buyers think the other way wherein the Avenger is seen as a competitor of Tbird as both are considered cruisers.

Totally unrelated products/categories both of them

Originally Posted by navin_v8

There was a competition to Avenger in the form of Yamaha Enticer but it faired poorly and was brought down.

Like I said, initial days.. level playing field.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Like Bajaj found an alternative crowd for its cruiser Avenger against RE Tbird they might also find an alternative crowd for its retro classic against RE.

The AVENGER is a DIFFERENT product than the TBird:

>> Different to look

>> Different to ride

>> Priced Differently

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Again it is the pricing advantage and wider service coverage that helps Pulsar over FZ.

Flanking strategy or not by Yamaha they do not have too many motorcycles to boast about(related to success) so I think FZ was not about flanking but putting it in direct competition with pulsar and they did succeed at it even though Pulsar is still selling in higher numbers than FZ.

What?

Originally Posted by navin_v8

You can have your reservations but where I see 6 months waiting period already and close to 200 bookings in the showroom I went for test riding it shows a different picture as to its "appeal in India".

Even the CBR250R had long waiting lists during the initial months.. like I said the proper picture becomes clear in only about 2 years.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Maybe in India but its doing good numbers in foreign markets.

Nope.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

As I said Eliminator/Avenger did have a competitor in the form of Enticer and AVL Tbird 350.

The TBird is DIFFERENT

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Your point of hibernation makes its interesting for Bajaj to try it with the retro classic motorcycle as well like they did to their Boxer model by reviving it now.

No business want's small numbers after investing crores.. btw the Boxer is only for exports.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Yes flanking or whatever your jargon is. I never said Bajaj would come and wipe away RE. I just said they can consider it as there is no real competitor against RE.

Its NOT my jargon. But a Marketing one, found in Marketing text books, taught in MBA schools.

One that is also used by Mr. Bajaj [just search on YouTube for Mr. Rajiv Bajaj]

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Mate no need to get personal with my vision being broad or small.

When did I ever state about your personal view being Broad/Small?

Originally Posted by navin_v8

It is a fact that in today's market nothing is constant look at models launched and taken back some click some don't. A manufacturer does not rely on just one model for it to sustain. Bajaj itself has been a leader in launching so many models where some clicked and some failed. This is how a company works. Maruti has been launching a barrage of models right from SX4(which didn't do as good as expected) but they bounced back with Ciaz. I will repeat you win some you lose some.

Ok, I get it, Try Radom / Many things.. some might click / some might not.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

If Hyundai would've avoided direct confrontation with Maruti it wouldn't have been what it is today.

It did... the Santro was Different to the 800.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Carving a niche in the retro classic segment when you have all other category of motorcycles to cushion the impact will do no harm. Call it flanking, nudging or whatever.

The Real McCoy: How to carve that niche? How to differentiate? Specifics Please?

[Urban_Nomad]

I don't have enough curse words to really show how I feel about these "blogs". Haven't we seen enough? 250 cc FI impulse, ADV 390 etc.

The bike itself is quite underwhelming at least on paper. 17 ish BHP, with akerb weight" of 161 KG. A quick calculation would tell you that:

- Enfield 500 - 142 BHP per ton
- Kwacker - 106 BHP per ton
- A very capable and versatile Himalayan - 137 BHP per ton

At least on paper, its an absolute Ho-Hum MAJOR yawn inducing motorcycle. And even if it were to be launched, you can bet it would cost well over the Enfields. I don't see a market for it here

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by payeng

And I am exactly giving my reasons why Bajaj won't launch a "Retro Classic".

It is just a speculation mate neither of us can be sure, so let's leave it at that.

Only because there was no direct competitor for all these years.

If it is just for the sake of argument I would take the risk of repeating myself that the Eliminator/Avenger did/does have a competitor in the form of erstwhile Enticer and Tbird 350.

The 200 and 373 cc engines were developed at Akurdi with the Vendors around Chakan and put together in the Chakan plant.

I never mentioned about the development I just said the engines were derived from KTM 200 and 375cc engines.

By the way: Bajaj has 48% stake in KTM and None in Kawasaki.

Yes but KTM and Bajaj both don't interfere in each others business they use economies of scale to achieve synergy. Kawasaki has been in collaboration with Bajaj since early 1990's and has been a technical partner in addition to giving Bajaj the right to produce the Eliminator in its current form(Avenger) which was originally a Kawasaki model. Infact Bajaj Platina, CT100, etc still uses the Kawasaki 99cc motor(in a different tune) which came on Bajaj 4s champion and later the Caliber.

I know.. consumers are strange no?

Sure they are like you gave the example of Harley Davidson vs the Big 4 Japanese Cruisers.

The Japanese Cruisers are so much better than the Harleys.. but still even the foreign customers don't seem to prefer them over the Harleys.

Customers/Buyers are a strange lot, you see.

The Santro had a differentiating Tall Boy design.

Yep but for the end buyer it did not really matter for them it was a competition against the Maruti 800. Infact many auto journos also ridiculed the Santro's bug eyed look and overall tall boy design for handling issues, but it still picked up as the buyers saw it in competition to Maruti 800 and chose it as an alternative, tall boy or bug eyed not withstanding.

Suggest something differentiated for the "Bajaj Retro Classic".. apart from quality & reliability

Brand name and heritage Bajaj has both in India atleast. Add cost of ownership and no. of service centres too. Exactly the reason why Kawasaki-Bajaj Eliminator could enter the cruiser category and give the potential buyers an option who couldn't afford RE Tbird. For example, when I was in college many guys considered the Tbird but backed out due to pricing and opted for Eliminator as they wanted a cruiser.

Forget the marketing mumbo: Ertiga starts at 6.18 Lakhs, Innova starts at 13.21 lakhs.

And that is exactly how Maruti plays the competition game. Their trump card is the price and cost of ownership. Individual buyers who had no option in MUV segment when the Innova was around were now moving to Maruti Ertiga as it came in 7 seater option with a diesel engine. Soon fleet operators too started shifting from Innova to Ertiga. Here in Bombay one can see how Ertiga has slowly started taking over the BPO cab market from Innova.

I am no car guy but visually both belong to different segments altogether.

Mate the fact is that they belong to the MUV/MPV segment. There are numerous comparisons done by auto journos for both these MUV/MPV's.

Like you said the CBZ did at the beginning.. and RE has been on for 60 years.

CBZ didn't remain the king forever once the Pulsar and TVS/Suzuki Fiero came knocking, this is competition. Agreed that RE has been in the Retro Classic business for so many decades and has the sole lion's share in the market. Given the price advantage they have, there is no other local company other than Bajaj who can challenge them. Mr. Bajaj stating his intentions to compete with RE just confirms this. They have tasted this before with Eliminator vs Tbird market and hence look keen to test it again with a retro classic.

Something that can definitely happen during the initial stages.. very very difficult with an established leader.

I am not saying like taking RE's market share all of a sudden(even taking off 10% market share will be a challenge). But Bajaj might look at the volumes only after they test the waters with their model. Bajaj is a fighter and they might have something on their hands. It will be the same like people who are sitting on the fence for buying an RE CL350 but are held back due to budget and cost of ownership constraints will at least consider another option from Bajaj like they did with Eliminator when it was pitted against AVL Tbird 350.

Totally unrelated products/categories both of them

Mate if it is just for argument's sake then I wont reply to this one henceforth but the fact is both are marketed as Cruisers and belong to the Cruiser category.

Like I said, initial days.. level playing field.

Agreed but not every model has a chance for a level playing field when it enters the market. Some manufacturers just create a segment while others follow and sometimes beat them at their own game. It will be a tough task for Bajaj but not impossible. Also when Mr. Bajaj says he wants to compete with RE he must have some kind of a game plan while importing the Kawasaki Estrella 250.

The AVENGER is a DIFFERENT product than the TBird:

>> Different to look

>> Different to ride

>> Priced Differently[/quote]
No more comments. Read above.

What?

You can read that again to understand. There was reason for Yamaha to choose a 150cc motorcycle and out of the many other reasons one of them was to compete with Pulsar hence the FZ. It is still doing decent numbers by the way.

Even the CBR250R had long waiting lists during the initial months.. like I said the proper picture becomes clear in only about 2 years.

CBR250R did well initially as it had no competition until RC200 arrived also many were considering the Yamaha R15 which was cheaper and had good performance.

Nope.

Yep Sid Lal himself said and I quote, "The Continental GT is yielding better returns in the foreign markets than what we had expected."

I also checked zauba.com for export figures of CGT and it does not look bad at all as rightly said by Sid lal.

References:
http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes...field/26632527

http://www.autocarpro.in/features/ro...nental-gt-4886

http://www.autocarpro.in/news-nation...rch-2016-11017

https://www.zauba.com/export-royal-enfield-hs-code.html

The TBird is DIFFERENT

Yep but it is still considered as a cruiser and belongs to the cruiser segment. Customers are strange, no?

No business want's small numbers after investing crores.. btw the Boxer is only for exports.

The numbers in the retro classic market are huge and even if Bajaj manages to steal away 5% of that it will enter where no one else has and can make some profit like it did with Kawasaki Eliminator by taking on Tbird in the early 2000's. They can also consider exporting the retro classic like RE did with the CGT.

Its NOT my jargon. But a Marketing one, found in Marketing text books, taught in MBA schools.

These jargons differ from author to author and professor to professor, it wasn't around when I did my MBA. Different authors different jargons(mumbo jumbo).

When did I ever state about your personal view being Broad/Small?

Your words and I quote, "You do not seem have a clear vision."

Ok, I get it, Try Radom / Many things.. some might click / some might not.

Why not? so many manufacturers do it. Go figure.

It did... the Santro was Different to the 800.

For the buyers it was a hatch in competition to the 800. Period.

The Real McCoy: How to carve that niche? How to differentiate? Specifics Please?

The answer is very simple the way Bajaj did by introducing the Kawasaki Eliminator against RE Tbird. The Eliminator/Avenger carved a niche for it self. It was cheaper to buy and cost of ownership was easy. Ofcourse it didn't blow away the Tbird but it did given an option to buyers who were opting for a cruiser.

[payeng]

Originally Posted by navin_v8

The answer is very simple the way Bajaj did by introducing the Kawasaki Eliminator against RE Tbird.

The Eliminator/Avenger carved a niche for it self. It was cheaper to buy and cost of ownership was easy. Ofcourse it didn't blow away the Tbird but it did given an option to buyers who were opting for a cruiser.

Yes BUT with the CS400.

A Retro Classic from Bajaj? Like you seem to suggest.. I don't see that happening.

[FourWheelDrift]

Rather than the Kawasaki Estrella being considered as a competitor for the Enfield Bullet, I believe that the Yamaha SR400 is a true alternative.

Check out the thread at http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/superb...aha-sr400.html

Hope Yamaha is reading this.

Truly, if Kawasaki wants to offer something to the retro crowd, they should consider bringing the W650 / W800 ... and go after the Triumph Bonneville.

Check out the thread at http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/superb...ed-pg-2-a.html

Cheers,

FourWheelDrift

[amitc7]

Looks like a nice commuter and if priced well 1.50-1.75 ex-showroom it is something I will be happy with.
Throw in ABS and we have a credible and comfortable bike for use in the city as well as short weekend rides. Definitely one for my stable. I wish they had brought the Yamaha SR400 to India.

[motor spirit]

Guys .. will there be a competition for RE...will anybody dare to do it..will the estrella be launched. Seriously looking for a classic modern bike other than RE

[Garrett]

If at all the BJ250 is launched I'd pick one up simple because it's a jap bike and I think it will be reliable as a modern bike ought to be and at the same time I love the retro bike looks, make no mistake I love the RE bikes too but their quality is something not up to the mark i would personally prefer

Now while we are at the dreamin stage how about Kawasaki getting the W800 or well its successor if at all they make one and get it to india that would be so awesome.

Bring it on BJ250 if at all anything it will only be a good thing for the people as competition will bring just that