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Old 10th July 2018, 20:53   #46
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Default Re: Anand Mahindra: Jawa Motorcycles could be first major threat to Royal Enfield

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Originally Posted by payeng View Post
In simple words, it (an RE bike) is the Best Ego Massager (pun intended) that is still essentially a Commuter.
This! You got it spot-on.
Gone are the days when the so-called "typical Indian buyer" goes for the highest-FE, lowest-priced bike. We look for identity in our bikes, and can afford something fancier. "Ego massager" is the right term. At the same time, real-life needs dictate something with a usable pillion. If something else hits this spot, it will succeed.

I remember traditionalists predicting that anything over 150cc will be an utter flop in the Indian market, when there was talk of Pulsar 220 / Apache 180. Boy were they wrong. It is a myth that Indians don't want nice things or can't afford them. What we won't do is pay more than foreign customers just for brand. We will pay "fair" price and buy even the nicest products.
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Old 10th July 2018, 23:01   #47
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Default Re: Anand Mahindra: Jawa Motorcycles could be first major threat to Royal Enfield

A Royal Enfield has always been more than a bike to its owner, its the feel which a biker gets by owning the bike, whether its the old CI one or the newer models. To counter the sales of a RE will be tough for any brand at the price point they sell and the sales numbers are supportive of this in fact.

IMHO the Jawa should have the same charm and old school feel if they wish to attract some biking connoisseurs who love their bikes and keep them close to the heart.
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Old 11th July 2018, 14:11   #48
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Default Re: Anand Mahindra: Jawa Motorcycles could be first major threat to Royal Enfield

Im surprised by the negative reaction to Mahindra's move. If you keep in mind Mahindra's past in the two wheeler business now they have

1. A good platform that is based on a well proven motorcycle. The power output is good for Indian conditions (29 hp), it has a 5 speed gearbox, a top speed of 144 kmph (taken from the Genuine website), mileage of 36 kmpl (same source) and the looks lovely. The only fault I can find is that it has a rear drum brake. Maybe Mahindra can get Shineray to build the units with a rear disc instead. From what I understand, Genuine Motorcycles in the US and Mash Motorcycles in France specify how they want their Shineray Motorcycles built.

2. The option of not starting from scratch and spending years and heavens know how many dollars in R&D. So a faster time to market.

3. The ability to offer a non Royal Enfield product in the market. As much as everyone praises RE for its turnaround and launching multiple new motorcycles (the Himalayan and the 650s), in the real worldRoyal Enfield also does have a reputation for building unreliable bikes which is why many potential owners stay away from them. Ive lost count of the number of people who have told me that they would have bought the Himalayan had it not been for its abysmal build quality record. And this is only the Himalayan which is a niche product for RE. Imagine how many more Classic 350s they would have sold if the bikes were very reliable!

4. A brand name unencumbered with a lasting legacy. To most this is a problem but to me this is a wonderful opportunity for Mahindra. So many of this generations bikers have heard about (and seen) the Jawa or the Yezdi but they dont have lasting memories or a firm opinion on what the bikes represent besides nostalgia. So Mahindra doesnt have to build the brand from scratch, which is half the battle won. They just have to arm themselves with a great advertising campaign and script this new generation's Jawa or Yezdi story. Look at how well Bajaj helped build brands with their Pulsar Its a boy and Hoodibaba campaigns.

I am sure Mahindra will do decent sales numbers each month once they can streamline their operations. They would have learnt a lot from the Mojo experiment and this time they will do much better.

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Originally Posted by shortbread View Post
Oh, it's already in production. The fully faired model is part of the Chongqing Shineray Classic series. They have a plethora of variants based on the same frame and 400cc engine including an off-roader, cafe racer, side car variant etc.
Excellent post, thanks for sharing. I did some research on the Shineray products and their derivatives including the Genuine G400C in the US. Im impressed.

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Originally Posted by shortbread View Post
Chongqing/Mash do not offer ABS, no traction control or adjustable suspension in the UK. At one end are non-adjustable 35mm forks, and at the other regular twin shocks that can be adjusted for load. 19-inch front wheel and an 18-inch rear spoked wheels wear chinese rubber. Brakes are 160mm drum at the rear supplementing the single two-pot caliper 280mm front disc.
Interestingly, the cafe racer version of the same bike from Mash offers ABS and a rear disc. This review from Bennetts was quite useful - https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocia...-tt-cafe-racer

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Originally Posted by shortbread View Post
My only worry is how the public would perceive a badge engineered product. The Indian two wheeler market is a tough nut to crack, and aiming at a brand like RE makes things a lot harder.
Advertising, advertising and more advertising. That and not making the mistake that Bajaj did with the Dominar by trying to go straight up against the Royal Enfield.

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Originally Posted by ringoism View Post
Agree that something like this should be able to co-exist side-by-side the RE's, without necessarily trying to "compete" directly. The fact that it's 30kg's lighter, if nothing else, is going to give it a whole different dynamic and appeal. If it ends up niche-market, so what - so long as the pricing's tolerable. I hope they're not seriously trying for 40,000+ units a month.
Well said Eric, I also think it should draw decent numbers.
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Old 11th July 2018, 16:37   #49
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Default Re: Anand Mahindra: Jawa Motorcycles could be first major threat to Royal Enfield

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Originally Posted by neil.jericho View Post
Im surprised by the negative reaction to Mahindra's move. If you keep in mind Mahindra's past in the two wheeler business now they have ........


Advertising, advertising and more advertising. That and not making the mistake that Bajaj did with the Dominar by trying to go straight up against the Royal Enfield.
They already have gone against RE with the first twitter announcement and rest assured M&M will not have the advertising prowess that Bajaj employed on the Dominar. From every standpoint the Dominar was a superior product apart from the retro factor. Every customer buying an RE today had a plethora of better spec and more reliable motorcycles in the market to choose from.

The Chonqing classic series is indeed a nice line-up of bikes but how exactly will they advertise the 'Jawa' heritage on what the market perceives as a chinese motorcycle?!

All said and done we have no clues as to what M&M will launch, no signs of any prototypes undergoing testing so far. So it's all still in the air apparently.

But I do not think an assembly operation of re-badged motorcycles can work, well not if they are aiming for volumes!
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Old 12th July 2018, 11:00   #50
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Default Re: Anand Mahindra: Jawa Motorcycles could be first major threat to Royal Enfield

Quote:
Originally Posted by shortbread View Post
They already have gone against RE with the first twitter announcement and rest assured M&M will not have the advertising prowess that Bajaj employed on the Dominar.
The biggest factor that has contributed to the dismal sales of the Bajaj Dominar is their own advertising strategy. I had written a detailed post about it here - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motorb...ml#post4254068.


Lets look at some numbers. In May 2018, Bajaj sold 1191 units of the Dominar (source - https://news.maxabout.com/bikes/baja...port-may-2018/ ). I couldnt find the sales figures for Royal Enfield in the same month, so lets go with April 2018 instead and Royal Enfield sold 70,111 350 cc motorcycles which includes some exports as well (Source - https://news.maxabout.com/bikes/roya...rt-april-2018/ ). Now to ensure that the exports dont skew the numbers, lets look at their overall figures for RE. In total, RE sold 76,187 bikes with exports accounting for 1560 of them. Even if one were to assume all the exports were of the 350s (unlikely but just for arguments sake), that still leave 68551 350cc bikes. Against 1191 Dominars.


Long story short, Mahindra will not want to repeat Bajaj's same advertising mistake(s).

Quote:
Originally Posted by shortbread View Post
From every standpoint the Dominar was a superior product apart from the retro factor. Every customer buying an RE today had a plethora of better spec and more reliable motorcycles in the market to choose from.
I agree with you 100%. Still when it comes to sales figures, Bajaj isnt able to offer a wisp of resistance to the Royal Enfield juggernaut in the premium segment. That just shows how badly Bajaj messed with its advertising and why Mahindra has a chance!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shortbread View Post
The Chonqing classic series is indeed a nice line-up of bikes but how exactly will they advertise the 'Jawa' heritage on what the market perceives as a chinese motorcycle?!

All said and done we have no clues as to what M&M will launch, no signs of any prototypes undergoing testing so far. So it's all still in the air apparently.
You know its a Chinese motorcycle. I know its a Chinese motorcycle. But does the average buyer know that? And is it really a deal breaker when everything from the iphone to the plastic plants in an aquarium are made in China? I am also pleasantly surprised to note that in the last year or two, the attitudes in international markets are slowly changing towards being more accepting of Chinese motorcycles. I see them making inroads into the UK market and the Bennetts article even mentions that the Mash branded Shineray motorcycles have topped sales in the geared 125cc market in France for the last 3 years. So with a reasonably well priced (I assume and hope so!) bike with a known brand on the tank and reliability in spades, I think Mahindra is on the right track. But you are right, the lack of prototypes is a bit of a bugbear.
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Old 12th July 2018, 12:26   #51
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Default Re: Anand Mahindra: Jawa Motorcycles could be first major threat to Royal Enfield

With a launch being planned for 2018, there are absolutely no test mules being spotted. This is contrary to how Mahindra develops new products, as the Mojo mules were being spied for years as the product was being developed. There were even rides and reviews from selected users before the product was officially launched. With the RE twins that were showcased last year yet to hit our roads, I highly doubt if Jawa can hit our streets within the next 5 months.
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Old 14th July 2018, 09:36   #52
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Default Re: Anand Mahindra: Jawa Motorcycles could be first major threat to Royal Enfield

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Originally Posted by veyron_head View Post
CNN IBN has posted an image of the Jawa with a hideous faring in the front that looks completely out of place in a legendary motorcyle like Jawa. I hope this doesn't make it to production.

Image Source: https://www.news18.com/news/auto/ind...ef=hp_ht_pos_7
Like someone said beauty is in the eye of beholder. Btw this where that 'hideous' fairing got inspiration from. It was a fairly common one in that era. peace out.
http://www.gentrylane.com/s/wp-conte...duc_lftfrt.jpg
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Old 14th July 2018, 17:02   #53
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Default Re: Anand Mahindra: Jawa Motorcycles could be first major threat to Royal Enfield

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Originally Posted by veyron_head View Post
CNN IBN has posted an image of the Jawa with a hideous faring in the front that looks completely out of place in a legendary motorcyle like Jawa. I hope this doesn't make it to production.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nithin.J View Post
Like someone said beauty is in the eye of beholder. Btw this where that 'hideous' fairing got inspiration from. It was a fairly common one in that era. peace out.

Second what Nitin.J has said. Very true. That fairing is similar to what was used for racing bikes of that era. Check the following pictures of Mr. Somender Singh who rallied with these bikes.


Anand Mahindra: Jawa Motorcycles could be first major threat to Royal Enfield-img_6319.jpg

Anand Mahindra: Jawa Motorcycles could be first major threat to Royal Enfield-img_6326.jpg

Anand Mahindra: Jawa Motorcycles could be first major threat to Royal Enfield-img_6327.jpg


And this is from the latest Jawa day celebration at Mysuru, pic credit to schakravarthy.


Anand Mahindra: Jawa Motorcycles could be first major threat to Royal Enfield-img20180712wa0021.jpg



It is none other than the Mysuru scion, Yaduveer Krishnadatta Chamaraja Wodeyar at the helm.

Last edited by unk9ja : 14th July 2018 at 17:06.
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Old 16th July 2018, 08:52   #54
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Default Re: Anand Mahindra: Jawa Motorcycles could be first major threat to Royal Enfield

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Originally Posted by PrideRed View Post
One reason might be because, Karnataka is Yezdi's home turf.
Sure is.

The other selling point was they were lighter and you did not have to border on being six feet tall to ride one.
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Old 11th October 2018, 00:19   #55
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Default Re: Anand Mahindra: Jawa Motorcycles could be first major threat to Royal Enfield

Some announcement regarding Jawa today, it seems. Could it be really the launch date of the bike or just a gimmick to gate-crash the RE twins' party?

Source: http://overdrive.in/news-cars-auto/i...aled-tomorrow/
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Old 11th October 2018, 00:58   #56
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Default Re: Anand Mahindra: Jawa Motorcycles could be first major threat to Royal Enfield

Certainly hope so. Would be lovely to see the new Jawa and the Interceptor go head-to-head and compete, bringing the classic motorcycle shape back.
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Old 11th October 2018, 09:21   #57
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Default Re: Anand Mahindra: Jawa Motorcycles could be first major threat to Royal Enfield

Here is a very informative article about the Jawa story, especially for us millennials who know little about Jawa as a brand. A lot more thought has gone into the resurrection of Jawa than it seemed initially.

Quote:
Back in the mid-70s, says ad veteran Ambi Parameswaran, there was a class system to the handful of motorcycles available in India. Rajdoot was perceived to be a staid farmer’s motorcycle; Bullet was preferred by rustic landed gentry and those wanting young, urban, fast and cool bikes had Yezdi and Jawa. Parameswaran owned a Yezdi for a decade but freely admits Jawa was the cooler brand at the time.

On the roads at the time, it was a simple rugged trustworthy motorcycle that would never fail.

The brand was a casualty of Czechoslovakia's communist policies. While the Ideal Jawa factory supplied parts for a while, from 1973 onwards no motorcycles were produced in India.

They are stingy with details about pricing. Or launch date, other than “before the end of the year.” When it comes to the three bikes being introduced, all Thareja will say is, “We had two options: you start from the point where it ended. Or start where it would have gone had it not ended at the time. From a design POV, it’s got that golden ratio that transcends through time. With the lines you can recognise it’s a Jawa.”

The team intend making even retail a unique experience. Mahindra warms up to the subject and says, "Many of those coming in, claiming to be experiential are wannabe: trying too hard. They pander to clichés of what you’d expect a motorcycle outlet to look like. What would you expect of somebody who wanted to look rugged? You’d see a leather jacket somewhere. Or the picture of a mountain lane or rugged texturing. That’s easy. If you enter a place, you know if it’s pure image and no substance.” Substance, he argues, is when people find there is really a story. For instance, about people who’ve been passionate about the brand or mechanics who’ve worked on it all their lives. Mahindra is clear, “Their story must be told. A picture of Marlon Brando on the road is a wannabe image. If you have a person who has repaired or ridden Jawa, that’s substance."

Jawa represents a chance for the motorcycle category to break out of what we’d like to call faux-thenticty. Riding a bike is a great, exhilarating experience; seeing bike advertising significantly less so. For too long, bikes of a certain sort — you know who you are — have tapped into a tiresome set of shopworn clichés cadged from what we assume is the Harley Davidson playbook. Like fakes everywhere, they devalue the original and now even the pioneers are part of the same wallpaper: leather jackets, the lone rider or the socially responsible Hells Angel. With his dismissal of the trite clichés of the genre, Mahindra seems headed in the right direction

Last edited by Shumi_21 : 11th October 2018 at 09:30. Reason: Adding quotes
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Old 11th October 2018, 16:35   #58
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Default Re: Anand Mahindra: Jawa Motorcycles could be first major threat to Royal Enfield

The engine that will be used in the future Jawa motorcycles have been revealed. Although, the company claims that this is an entirely new engine developed specifically for Jawa, the engine displacement and power figures suggest that this is indeed built on top of Mojo's engine which is not a bad thing at all.

Source : http://overdrive.in/news-cars-auto/j...ng-next-month/

Quote:
the engine has a flat torque curve and will prove ultra-reliable. The company believes these two elements are crucial for the new motorcycle to speak to the blend of classic and sporty traits that characterised the Jawas of old.
The flat torque curve is interesting and sure the bike will have a very good low end torque which is the hallmark of these classic bikes.

Quote:
the sound tuning has been a special endeavour for the engine. Since the Jawas India has were all two-strokes, creating a BSIV-compliant and BSVI-ready engine that speaks with that voice was essential to the project. And the new engine promises to offer a delightful soundtrack.
If this is indeed true, then we have a clear competitor to the RE Classic 350 which sells mostly for that sound.
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