[theexperthand]

Originally Posted by veyron_head

CNN IBN has posted an image of the Jawa with a hideous faring in the front that looks completely out of place in a legendary motorcyle like Jawa. I hope this doesn't make it to production.

Caveat - Beauty in the eyes of beholder yada yada

I love this one. Usually, I do not like any faired motorcycles, and always prefer naked. But this one, I can make an exception. What a gorgeous looking retro-mobile.

--Anoop

[PrideRed]

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

Jawa a threat to Royal Enfield? No way. They'll need to pull off some kind of a miracle to achieve this.

They were never a threat back in the day too. Royal Enfield was the preferred choice by most. The taller stance, the smooth 4 stroke thump, more sturdier nature was the reason Enfield had an edge.

I don't know about sales figure back then, but atleast in my place I used to see more Yezdi's than Bullet's. The Bullet's were reserved to few cop's and overweight fellows. One reason might be because, Karnataka is Yezdi's home turf. Even in the movies, the heroes used to ride Yezdi and the Bullet's were reserved to goons!

[MaheshY1]

Success or failure, I'd like to see some competition in the entry level recreational motorcycle space.

Any competition is good competition. Although RE isn't sitting idle. Credit where it's due. the Continental GT, Himalayan, new 650 twins are proof.
It's really difficult to to innovate without alienating existing customer base. Harleys liquid cooled V Rod brought some new customers but did turn off the purists.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by veyron_head

CNN IBN has posted an image of the Jawa with a hideous faring in the front that looks completely out of place in a legendary motorcyle like Jawa. I hope this doesn't make it to production.

Oh, it's already in production. The fully faired model is part of the Chongqing Shineray Classic series. They have a plethora of variants based on the same frame and 400cc engine including an off-roader, cafe racer, side car variant etc.

The chinese company supplies them to distributors in multiple countries who sell them under various brands and guises. In Czech it's sold as Jawa, in the UK the local distributor calls it the 'Mash Roadstar' and is competitively priced approx. £1k cheaper than a Royal Enfield.

The engine produces 29bhp@7000rpm and 22lb-ft@5500rpm and mated to a 5 speed gearbox. The chinese engine is based on Honda’s old 80's XBR500 unit, an air-cooled overhead-cam four-valve single with contra-rotating balance shaft. It’s smaller than the original, down to 398cc from 498cc, and has fuel injection. Two silencer pipes sprouting out of the twin-port head.

Chongqing/Mash do not offer ABS, no traction control or adjustable suspension in the UK. At one end are non-adjustable 35mm forks, and at the other regular twin shocks that can be adjusted for load. 19-inch front wheel and an 18-inch rear spoked wheels wear chinese rubber. Brakes are 160mm drum at the rear supplementing the single two-pot caliper 280mm front disc.

Again like someone has already mentioned we have no idea what Mahindra will launch as the Jawa?! But considering the very short time frame and seeing no clues of prototypes being tested on the road I have an inkling it will be an operation based on Chonqing motorcycles with the Jawa name. Even if it's a Mojo engine on a new frame and design, there must be some testing done before launch. Less than one year launch most likely means Mahindra is going in with a tried and tested product.

The bikes are of decent quality and there would be no surprises if they are more reliable and much more affordable than the Royal Enfields. This route also lowers the risk for Mahindra. The two wheeler division lost 100 crores last year, albeit well down compared to the 400+ crore loss the previous year. It needs to do something as it's not a sustainable operation selling 15k odd two wheelers every year!

My only worry is how the public would perceive a badge engineered product. The Indian two wheeler market is a tough nut to crack, and aiming at a brand like RE makes things a lot harder. From day one there will be sales comparisons and judgements will start coming after simply a couple of quarters. One would prefer a new ground up product, but that is massive investments and bigger risks.

[timuseravan]

What was Mahindra thinking in launching a re-badged Chinese product as an authentic Jawa?
No matter how good the bikes are, does anyone think people are going to prefer a chinese bike against RE bullet? And I am not a RE fan in any sense.
Once the public find out that it is actually a "Chongqing", not only will sales collapse but also Jawa brand name ruined.

It would have been much better if they had done a retro job on Mojo (which is decent enough bike) and launched that as a Jawa.

[rajshenoy]

I Think Mahindras will be launching a bike with Mojo underpinnings under the brand name JAWA. Apart from that I don't think there is any similarity between these Chinese re-branded bikes vs what Mahindra will launch here.

I am waiting to see how they can transform Mojo into a retro theme, yet retaining the modern bits

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by timuseravan

Once the public find out that it is actually a "Chongqing", not only will sales collapse but also Jawa brand name ruined.

It would have been much better if they had done a retro job on Mojo (which is decent enough bike) and launched that as a Jawa.

Shineray 400 is an open copy of Honda's old CB400. Given that Chinese are experts at copying - this might not be a bad thing.

Mojo engine had another good advantage though - a nice exhaust note - which is very much valued in this segment.

[rangarx]

I have had the chance to ride this excellent machine in Yezdi guise during my early biking days. A neighbor had a road king 250 and he often ran the bike with Kerosene! I must say the bike has a charm and the handling was brilliant.

Compare that solidly built feel and compact dimensions with an RE, one thinks each bike has individual USPs for them.

However, Mahindra must bring the original Jawa/Yezdi feel intact in their new versions to make it compete with RE fraternity, which is not per se perfect. REs are affected by quality problems and watered down character post the UCE change over in my opinion. The chrome parts rusting in 3 months and frequent clutch/brake cable failures are not helping the case either. But, still they sell for what they offer. If Jawa has to take over them, it takes an earnest effort and Mahindra got it's work cut out.

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by Steeroid

IMHO they should try to create their own presence rather than trying to gatecrash someone else's party. This approach from Mahindra seems very immature and wannabe. The guys who rode Jawa in its heyday (before the 100cc IndoJap onslaught) are all grandfathers now. There is no residual value in the brand - they have to create value all over again.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Also, sad we can't get the two stroke 350 twin.

Potentially Duke/Dominar-like performance in a retro package with a proper flat seat, etc? Sounds good to me. The RE twins are looking expensive, the Bullet is as pedestrian / crude as ever and as mentioned has lost much of its earlier character drivetrain-wise. So this sounds like an appealing option.

Agree that something like this should be able to co-exist side-by-side the RE's, without necessarily trying to "compete" directly. The fact that it's 30kg's lighter, if nothing else, is going to give it a whole different dynamic and appeal. If it ends up niche-market, so what - so long as the pricing's tolerable. I hope they're not seriously trying for 40,000+ units a month.

When I was first up here in H.P. in 2005, there were several of the Yezdi's still running around - including for commercial carrier duty; All but a couple of them were fairly battered, some were abandoned. I think there's only one left - which the owner won't sell - so I'd agree that they're kind of off the radar by now, though as suggested, guys 30-40 years might still be familiar and own them, and if so definitely hold them in renown. The Yezdi club members I met up here in Manali last year were probably mostly in that bracket, and in fact most of the folks I know who bought Bullets in the last year were in that age group, so not everyone with a family is going exclusively to four-wheelers, and not sure we need to focus on millenials only. I think Yezdi ceased production around '95, wasn't it (?) - so there were certainly some people still buying them post-100cc revolution (15-year RC's expiring as late as 2010), and even those not buying them held them in high esteem long after, despite their becoming unpractical for that time. Personally (being, eh, 49) I like the way they handled / rode / sounded generally better than a Bullet (which I own, if you'll check my thread), though the latter has a different sort of appeal.

But I rode the two-stroke, and true, that is where the soul was. Being that marine two-stroke outboards are extremely clean-running at this point, I don't see the value in a "two stroke ban". If the tech is there such that it meets actual emission norms, who should care what technology is utilized to achieve it? The twin "smoker" - which appears to no longer smoke - would be beautiful.

To conclude, if it were to come down to my choosing, at the same pricepoint, between an overweight, anemic pushrod RE CL350 (which I can hardly bear to ride here in the hills at least) and a more sprightly 150kg, 400cc modern single retro-styled bike, well, I don't know for sure I'd go for the latter, but I certainly wouldn't be buying the former.

Pollution standards aside, can say that I wish I'd picked up the (running) 350 Jawa twin I found some years back on the Delhi outskirts - for Rs8,500!!!

-Eric

[B O V]

You know, After reading some of the posts on this thread, I wonder.

Does it really take that much to oust R.E from the position they enjoy currently.

I mean c'mon, mediocre 350's and 500's that are overpriced and oversold?

I think the service network is what the most important facet of this would be, I mean R.E's have some sort of support ( officially or via our neighbourhood mechs) throughout India, which the Mahindra brand may lack.

Looks wise they're fine, but aural pleasure is what will matter,

Imagine the aural vibes along with a good performer, it will definitely click.

I've owned R.E's since I started riding, therefore I do have a fair bit of exp, mainly with the old CI's since I own two of them, and the UCE's as well.

I can say with utmost confidence, that a dedicated team of enthusiasts, if at the helm of R.E/Jawa etc would make a difference.

From my view, it seems they're hiring management gurus as opposed to passionate young'uns!( Like me).

[rajushank84]

Originally Posted by B O V

You know, After reading some of the posts on this thread, I wonder.

Does it really take that much to oust R.E from the position they enjoy currently.

I mean c'mon, mediocre 350's and 500's that are overpriced and oversold?

Forget about winning- the problem is, other brands aren't even competing in the retro space. I think the business minds at all these companies are hugely missing out. They probably think the Indian buyer is poor, cares only about fuel efficiency and those of us that don't fall into this, will go for sport bikes. A mis-judgment in my opinion.

The Indian buyer will gladly go for something like a Shadow or a Bolt. Something like a V7 Stone would be nice too. But at a fair price, not at a premium. Just for that reason, because nearly nothing else is available in the retro-higher-displacement space, the Jawa might win. Right now only RE is even attempting to sell a product in this space, and no wonder they're doing well.

[avisidhu]

Whether it succeeds or not, only time will answer. What can be said with some degree of certainty is that if there are any bikes that can displace RE from its perch through sheer nostalgia, these would be the Yezdi and the RD 350.

How to go about doing that has been made apparent by the likes of RE and Triumph. But for now just praying both these manufacturers come up with modern day iterations that are built to last. They might be in for a pleasant surprise.

And oh, try some clever product placement through Punjabi music videos, the industry is more than happy to devote entire songs to Bull't, tractor models, Mahindra Thar, and even refurbished Chetak scooters

[jetsetgo08]

Originally Posted by rajushank84

Forget about winning- the problem is, other brands aren't even competing in the retro space.

Hero did attempt with a wheezy Splendor Classic Pro. Shouldn't have taken them a long time to realize that people will disregard style if it does not have an equivalent character.

[payeng]

Originally Posted by rajushank84

Forget about winning- the problem is, other brands aren't even competing in the retro space.

Have stated it many times on Team-BHP and would say it once again, that its nothing to do with the RETRO / NOSTALGIC space.

Only reason why Royal Enfield has been successful is because it churns out the Best Mass Mover that TURN HEADS, at a price that is BELOW the Maruti Alto.

In simple words, it (an RE bike) is the Best Ego Massager (pun intended) that is still essentially a Commuter.

[naveenroy]

Originally Posted by Shumi_21

I don't think it would be a good idea to play the tradition game with RE. The simple reason being millennials (me included), have little to no idea about the legacy of Jawa motorcycles.

I like this point most! Companies need to move on about tradition. Let the tradition part of it be something like a hook into the past but the machine should be in the present!

Millennials here hardly care about cars, let alone motorcycles. We need to look at more avenues to get them interested in motorcycles not keep talking about tradition - we know most of them don't really care about the tradition part of it - I know. And I mean no offense.