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Old 13th July 2018, 16:54   #16
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Default Re: Pakistan-made Sigma Rokk 200: A KTM Duke clone

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Originally Posted by ashwinprakas View Post
The Duke's motor doesn't come with an overhead hangar where as the motor on the Roxx comes with an overhead hangar, which is just one of the differences I can spot from this picture.

When it comes to people, in the event of a failure of an organ you can receive a substitute from a donor irrespective of having anything in common with that person. The same is not the case with motorcycles, even when it comes to models relating to the same brand you would difficulty in swapping parts, that is just that.

I believe our discussion has reached its peak purpose and we have our own respective views on the matter and strong foundations to support them, so I guess it would be best to let the rest share their views on the same.
If you believe it is easier to change internal organs in humans than engines in motorcycles, the discussion is really at an end

I will just leave you with this
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Old 13th July 2018, 17:19   #17
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Default Re: Warning: this may make your eyes bleed and cause psychological distress. Meet the Sigma Rokk 200

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Originally Posted by navin_v8 View Post
Mate per you the blatant copying of body design of various models of Rolls Royce, Bentley, Range Rover, BMW(including motorcycles), Mercedes Benz, Mitsubishi, Toyota, etc. by Chinese manufacturers is OK. R&D costs, man-hours, designers who put their blood and sweat into designing, etc. be damned. Wow.

No wonder the Chinese consumers love the blatant rip offs of the above mentioned brands. Are they less informed or have no knowledge about the particular model they're buying, I don't think so mate. BTW they also have a rip off of Bajaj Pulsar being sold there. Looking at your above statements it is clear why they have surpassed USA as the biggest automobile market. Little to no R&D in designing while churning out cars and motorcycles by gazillions while doing reverse engineering. Consumers are happy buying copies/rip offs or "inspired" by designs, manufacturers are happy selling copies of iconic models, economy is booming, etc. etc. Ethics, What Ethics?
I honestly feel the emotion but this unfortunately is the lay of the land just as we've been taught in Economics, both the first mover and second mover have their own respective advantages and disadvantages.

And in the given scenario KTM is the first mover and has the prominent advantage of market capital where as the second movers be it Benelli or UM or Sigma would have the advantage of lesser productions costs.

It is just the way things are, just because xxx is a second mover that doesn't mean that I would anyhow just go with yyy being a first mover overseeing the advantages that xxx would pose for me unless I have a strong case against opting for it.

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This is hilarious mate. I saw a similar mod job/rip-off "inspired" by design. See link: https://www.financialexpress.com/aut...l-too/1159468/
Fuel tank, tool box, seat, etc copied err "inspired" from Royal Enfield and pasted on Kawasaki Bajaj 4S champion. I am sure there is a market for this too. Ethics, well who cares?
That sure would have a market, but I fail to see the advantage of owning something as such, considering quality concerns faced by RE onwers. Though from a business perspective it makes sense, to buy materials amounting to 40k, putting not so much time into assembly and selling at a profit of 30k.

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Mate the fact remains HMT manufactures the 0271 Miyota Movement under license from Citizen Japan. Not just HMT you can look for more watches using the Miyota movement like Invicta, Stuhrling, etc. Interestingly Invicta, Stuhrling, etc. watch designs are rippoff/copy or "inspired" by Rolex Submariner Date Just, Omega Seamaster, etc. I don't think Rokk does so with KTM, at least body design wise. Neither Invicta or Sturhling with regards to Rolex and Omega.
Understandable, but then they aren't fooling anyone.

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Mate which current RE model do you own, if I may ask? Just curious to know.
None, I thought my signature covered that.

Though if you're wondering about why I display a distaste for the recent offerings it is simply because I've had the opportunity to work on a few, though a fan of the technology or rather lack off it, the quality at the current price point is something I find unjustifiable.

Also my co-rider for a ride in February around the golden quadrilateral circuit was riding a pristine condition Bullet 500 with more or less the same km's as my CT100B, and believe it or not the riding conditions and speeds only resulted in my motorcycles RVM's(heavier non-stock) coming loose, whereas the RE faced a plethora of issues from parts coming loose to breaking off to oil leaks(barely around the 50% mark at around 4k km's) and much more, now I would discount most of the issues if the motorcycle were ridden at its peak but that was also not the case, especially since my co-rider had the fortune of riding alongside me.

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Originally Posted by ashwinprakas View Post
The Japanese used to do that during the 50's and early 60's with motorcycles but things changed and they started designing their own "Original" models. UJM was based on some British motorcycles, but soon the Japanese started making their own designs in house and the rest is history.

Akin to the Royal Indian Bullet eh! which I mentioned above.
True about that, though a closer look show that rather than come up originals in the strict sense it is more of an evolution, the UJM's went from NA to forced induction to weight reduction to aerodynamics to lean production and what not.
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Old 13th July 2018, 18:15   #18
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Default Re: Warning: this may make your eyes bleed and cause psychological distress. Meet the Sigma Rokk 200

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Originally Posted by ashwinprakas View Post
I honestly feel the emotion but this unfortunately is the lay of the land just as we've been taught in Economics, both the first mover and second mover have their own respective advantages and disadvantages.
Mate it has nothing to do with emotion rather it has to do with ethics and morals. Given that it is a business but same is not done by the Japanese, Italians, Germans, Swedish, etc. They along with their products have earned respect for their original offerings. First mover or second mover does not really apply here. Taking the example of Maruti 800 which had a first mover advantage but did Hyundai blatantly copy/rip off or got "inspired" by the Maruti 800 design while offering their iconic Santro. Nope. The Santro was totally different in design and engine compared to Maruti 800, only that both were hatchbacks, that's it. There are many more examples like this, but this is the most relevant I could mention.
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And in the given scenario KTM is the first mover and has the prominent advantage of market capital where as the second movers be it Benelli or UM or Sigma would have the advantage of lesser productions costs.
Exactly the reason why companies like Eidder motors lured and duped gullible customers by giving them promises of their "inspired" by design motorcycles. Benelli is already in tatters in India and I hardly spot any UM motorcycles despite being cheaper than competition. So your points above are null and void.
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It is just the way things are, just because xxx is a second mover that doesn't mean that I would anyhow just go with yyy being a first mover overseeing the advantages that xxx would pose for me unless I have a strong case against opting for it.
That's a different matter mate. Here we are not talking about first mover, second mover, third mover or nth mover. It is about blatantly copying somebody's design and calling it your own. There are buyers for everything but this shows incompetency on the manufacturers part where they refuse to make something on their own. To me these kind of ripoffs/copies "inspired designs" are no different than Frankenstein.
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That sure would have a market, but I fail to see the advantage of owning something as such, considering quality concerns faced by RE onwers. Though from a business perspective it makes sense, to buy materials amounting to 40k, putting not so much time into assembly and selling at a profit of 30k.
That my friend is called "Jugaad" and you would be surprised to know that this word has been recently added into the Oxford dictionary.
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Understandable, but then they aren't fooling anyone.
They are fooling gullible customers. It is similar to selling Amal butter with the same design and stickering as Amul butter or selling Parle D biscuits instead of the original Parle G. You as an informed customer will not buy it but what about people who just look at the design and buy stuff thinking it is original due to similar design and packing. Do you justify that too?
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None, I thought my signature covered that.
I see, then what makes you say that RE quality is not good without even owning one. Please spare me the reasons like my friend, cousin, neighbor and their grandmother have faced issues with RE.
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Though if you're wondering about why I display a distaste for the recent offerings it is simply because I've had the opportunity to work on a few, though a fan of the technology or rather lack off it, the quality at the current price point is something I find unjustifiable.
That's just your opinion and I respect that. But the fact remains hundreds of thousands of people buying RE on a month on month basis cannot be wrong all at the same time.
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Also my co-rider for a ride in February around the golden quadrilateral circuit was riding a pristine condition Bullet 500 with more or less the same km's as my CT100B, and believe it or not the riding conditions and speeds only resulted in my motorcycles RVM's(heavier non-stock) coming loose, whereas the RE faced a plethora of issues from parts coming loose to breaking off to oil leaks(barely around the 50% mark at around 4k km's) and much more, now I would discount most of the issues if the motorcycle were ridden at its peak but that was also not the case, especially since my co-rider had the fortune of riding alongside me.
Sounds like most urban legends I have heard about RE. Never happened to me and my buddies during our rides while doing so for the past 8-10 years. There was a Bajaj Pulsar belonging to a friend riding long side us, his exhaust was spewing white smoke while burning oil, brakes were squealing, and front tyre was wobbling on a relatively new bike. This one experience doesn't make me say Bajaj Pulsar is an unreliable or a poorly made bike, which of course it is not.
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True about that, though a closer look show that rather than come up originals in the strict sense it is more of an evolution, the UJM's went from NA to forced induction to weight reduction to aerodynamics to lean production and what not.
Mate an inline 4 motorcycle(read Honda CB750) introduced by the Japanese and mass produced during the late 60's dominated by singles, vtwin and parallel twin from British and American motorcycles was indeed a revolutionary Japanese original model. Evolution came at a much later stage. Also don't forget some of the Japanese inventions were their own and not copied or ripped off from elsewhere and that is also true for their kan-ban, poka yoke, etc. quality process which was their original idea. No wonder they continue to innovate while others choose/like to copy/rip off "inspire" forget about crediting them but they just choose to replicate the copies and sell them in huge numbers and most people support it. Irony indeed!
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Old 14th July 2018, 01:24   #19
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Default Re: Warning: this may make your eyes bleed and cause psychological distress. Meet the Sigma Rokk 200

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Originally Posted by navin_v8 View Post
Mate it has nothing to do with emotion rather it has to do with ethics and morals. Given that it is a business but same is not done by the Japanese, Italians, Germans, Swedish, etc. They along with their products have earned respect for their original offerings. First mover or second mover does not really apply here. Taking the example of Maruti 800 which had a first mover advantage but did Hyundai blatantly copy/rip off or got "inspired" by the Maruti 800 design while offering their iconic Santro. Nope. The Santro was totally different in design and engine compared to Maruti 800, only that both were hatchbacks, that's it. There are many more examples like this, but this is the most relevant I could mention.
Just because Hyundai or a few other international manufacturers started from in India as such doesn't mean that everyone is expected to follow suit, especially indigenous companies as companies like Hyundai had enough international backing having set up shop in the early 70's and only entering India in the 90's.

Comparison is good but comparing apples and oranges will only go so far.

Forget reinventing the wheel even for the sake of meeting customer expectations, the customer base in markets such as ours is influenced more by notions rather than facts, a testament to the statement is the sales figures of Honda Activa's and Royal Enfields. After all this expecting zen percent originality is just asking too much.

Rather than to criticize such examples such as the Sigma Rock 200 we have not bothered to give a second though to such indigenous manufacturers, anyone remember the Rock 100? I doubt it, this is what has become of the manufacturer;

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Exactly the reason why companies like Eidder motors lured and duped gullible customers by giving them promises of their "inspired" by design motorcycles. Benelli is already in tatters in India and I hardly spot any UM motorcycles despite being cheaper than competition. So your points above are null and void.
We can keep going on and on but that would be like two fanboys of sports teams going on and on in front of the TV screen, the end result being insignificant considering the whole scheme of things.

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That's a different matter mate. Here we are not talking about first mover, second mover, third mover or nth mover. It is about blatantly copying somebody's design and calling it your own. There are buyers for everything but this shows incompetency on the manufacturers part where they refuse to make something on their own. To me these kind of ripoffs/copies "inspired designs" are no different than Frankenstein.
Incompetence or competence is something I would not prefer to speak about as I do not have the experience to back it up when it comes to setting shop in a diverse market in Southern Asia.

But hey, if there's a market and no legal infringements then is there really anything substantial to base a blame on, other than pure notion?

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That my friend is called "Jugaad" and you would be surprised to know that this word has been recently added into the Oxford dictionary.
Some call it Jugaad, some call it motorcycle customization. Once again, if there's a market and no legal infringements then...

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They are fooling gullible customers. It is similar to selling Amal butter with the same design and stickering as Amul butter or selling Parle D biscuits instead of the original Parle G. You as an informed customer will not buy it but what about people who just look at the design and buy stuff thinking it is original due to similar design and packing. Do you justify that too?
Finally, we're talking about knockoff's!

But there is no fooling involved, a manufacturer selling a premium product and falling short on multiple occasions can be close to fooling the customer, but a product that is branded otherwise but still meets safety regulations to be put up in stores is nowhere close to fooling a customer, that is neglect from the customers end.

If you're saying that these items with similar names are not approved and are sold under falsehood then that is a punishable offence but that is nowhere in conjunction with what Sigma is doing with the Rokk 200.

Not sure what celestial substance someone would have to be high on to walk into a store demanding a KTM Duke 200 and end up walking out or rather riding out on a Sigma Rokk 200.

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I see, then what makes you say that RE quality is not good without even owning one. Please spare me the reasons like my friend, cousin, neighbor and their grandmother have faced issues with RE.

That's just your opinion and I respect that. But the fact remains hundreds of thousands of people buying RE on a month on month basis cannot be wrong all at the same time.
You do not need to own a product to form an opinion about it, and I believe that need not be debated since we already have strong opinions about the Sigma Rokk 200 which I doubt any of us would ever get to see in the flesh, but yes then there is this concern about substantiation, for that in my defense I have considerable experience riding alongside Royal Enfield's and working on them which is far more than the average Royal Enfield rider in the country.

Pakistan-made Sigma Rokk 200: A KTM Duke clone-img_20180206_144411.jpg

One of the Enfields I've worked on is this Bullet 500, which we rode from KL to DL via East and Back via West in under 2 weeks, with our highest recorded distance covered in a day coming in the ballpark of 900 km's, no service stations visits or anything as such I worked on both the motorcycles seen the picture by myself by the side of the road, which is more experience than the average consumer who is a prime contributor to the said sales figures.

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Sounds like most urban legends I have heard about RE. Never happened to me and my buddies during our rides while doing so for the past 8-10 years. There was a Bajaj Pulsar belonging to a friend riding long side us, his exhaust was spewing white smoke while burning oil, brakes were squealing, and front tyre was wobbling on a relatively new bike. This one experience doesn't make me say Bajaj Pulsar is an unreliable or a poorly made bike, which of course it is not.
Either your group is extremely lucky or rides at an entirely different pace from us.

Pakistan-made Sigma Rokk 200: A KTM Duke clone-img_0025.jpg

This one rather is more of a brand new machine with under 5k on the odo, the exhaust literally broke free while riding.

I do understand being proud of ones machine but then again we should be realists, if a manufacturer expects me as a consumer to cough up a premium then this is not what is I would expect, but say if I were offered the likes of the Sigma Rokk 200 for quite a reasonable price then I would have nothing to complain about, even the sub standard run-in 1500 km's warranty for that matter because as a consumer I see a win-win situation, I get absolutely what I pay for, nothing less, nothing more.

As for Bajaj Pulsar's, they are an absolute disaster when it comes to finesse but irrespective of the number of blown seals as long as you make sure that there's oil in it and the oil is changed at 2k intervals then it would keep on running, they're the Honda Cub's of the Indian performance market, if such a thing actually exists.

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Mate an inline 4 motorcycle(read Honda CB750) introduced by the Japanese and mass produced during the late 60's dominated by singles, vtwin and parallel twin from British and American motorcycles was indeed a revolutionary Japanese original model. Evolution came at a much later stage. Also don't forget some of the Japanese inventions were their own and not copied or ripped off from elsewhere and that is also true for their kan-ban, poka yoke, etc. quality process which was their original idea. No wonder they continue to innovate while others choose/like to copy/rip off "inspire" forget about crediting them but they just choose to replicate the copies and sell them in huge numbers and most people support it. Irony indeed!
The Honda CB750 is an example of competition derived innovation rather than being an original as it had its roots from the CB450 which again is a UJM though remarkable even more than the CB750, the CB750 being a huge success is a different story it was more notion that technical superiority that resulted in it being a success, the consumers wanted a big bike, so Honda gave them a big bike.

I guess I've put forth all my thoughts on the matter and I fear pushing any more would end up going around in circles with not value addition to the topic, so peace out it is from my end.

A.P.
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Old 16th July 2018, 12:35   #20
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Default Re: Warning: this may make your eyes bleed and cause psychological distress. Meet the Sigma Rokk 200

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Originally Posted by ashwinprakas View Post
Just because Hyundai or a few other international manufacturers started from in India as such doesn't mean that everyone is expected to follow suit, especially indigenous companies as companies like Hyundai had enough international backing having set up shop in the early 70's and only entering India in the 90's.
Oh this is going to be interesting. Remember the ICML Rhino the indigenous clone/rip off "inspired" by the legendary Toyota Qualis. What happened to it? It was a cheap knock off with dubious quality which tried to reign on the success of Toyota Qualis. I will give it to an indigenous company like Mahindra which brought in their Xylo to take on Innova. The Xylo's design and stance and basic engineering were different compared to Innova. Mahindra didn't ape/copy or rip off the design from Toyota Innova.
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Comparison is good but comparing apples and oranges will only go so far.
Ok if that's unfair then let me give you an example of motorcycles. Remember the Enfield Taurus also called as the Diesel Bullet in local parlance. Now think of the indigenous rip off/copy "inspired" called Sooraj Diesel bike. While both are out of production the Sooraj Diesel did cash in on Taurus's success with a jugaad copy-paste. I will give it to Bajaj for having brought the geared Scooter revolution in India (there were a couple of others from Italy) with their Chetak model which itself was based on a Vespa model, but built under license from Vespa Italy. The Chetak became a huge success besides and a lot of others followed suit to cash in on the success of scooters. Indian variant of Innocenti Lambretta model was built under license by API and SIL of India. Mind you they didn't rip off/copy or "get inspired" by design by making clones, they built it under license from Innocenti. There are numerous other examples but I think the above would suffice for your Apples to Apples and Oranges to Oranges comparison.
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Forget reinventing the wheel even for the sake of meeting customer expectations, the customer base in markets such as ours is influenced more by notions rather than facts, a testament to the statement is the sales figures of Honda Activa's and Royal Enfields. After all this expecting zen percent originality is just asking too much.
But that hasn't hindered companies like Suzuki, Yamaha, TVS, etc. to blatantly copy/rip off "get inspired" by design of Honda Activa. They haven't aped the Activa and their offerings are very different in design and other aspects from Activa. Suzuki, Yamaha, TVS, etc. designs are their own and original and this is what differentiates it from the likes of Sigma Rokk and other such copied/rip off designs. Royal Enfield's well they have no competition as the category they belong to is yet been unexplored, except for the Royal Bullet which I mentioned in the previous post . I give credit to Mahindra for targeting RE with Jawa motorcycles(yet to be launched) and let me tell you Jawa has nothing in common with RE except for the era both belonged to. Now that is called Original unlike Royal Bullet and other such Jugaads.
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Rather than to criticize such examples such as the Sigma Rock 200 we have not bothered to give a second though to such indigenous manufacturers, anyone remember the Rock 100? I doubt it, this is what has become of the manufacturer;

Attachment 1781309
Oh that's sad! but what about the reliability and quality of the Global Rock 100 bike. Like the way you say about RE's in general. I came across this link about the dubious quality of the said Rock 100 bike and the plight of the customers who owned them.
https://www.consumercomplaints.in/co...e-c327064.html

The Global Rock 100 looks like a love child between the Hero Splendor and Bajaj Platina with a Chinese engine. Ah yes! let me enlighten you and others with what happened to Global Automobiles which offered the Rock 100 bike. See article below:

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/19959073.cms

It is appalling to see someone glorifying such dubious brands and diluting the very essence of the term indigenous.
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We can keep going on and on but that would be like two fanboys of sports teams going on and on in front of the TV screen, the end result being insignificant considering the whole scheme of things.
Nope I don't think so. Reading and showing the above article about Global Rock 100 to everyone on this forum isn't as insignificant like watching a game on TV by two fanboys.
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Incompetence or competence is something I would not prefer to speak about as I do not have the experience to back it up when it comes to setting shop in a diverse market in Southern Asia.
That's exactly what happens to dubious companies trying to cash in on someone else's success. Your example of Global Rock 100 is an ideal testament of this.
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But hey, if there's a market and no legal infringements then is there really anything substantial to base a blame on, other than pure notion?
Oh I see. Again I will emphasize you to the read the TOI article and customer's and dealer's plight who bought the Global Rock 100. I would rather go with pure notion by buying a Hero Splendor than betting my hard earned money on Global Rock 100 and its kind. I believe Lambretta had filed a suit against SIL for non usage of Lambretta brand name and reclaiming it, till then SIL happily made Lambretta variants until caught by the Lambretta consortium. So in your parlance keep copying/ripping off "inspired by" design until you get caught by the law.
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Some call it Jugaad, some call it motorcycle customization. Once again, if there's a market and no legal infringements then...
Oh please customization is different than Jugaad and I don't need to give a link to the Oxford dictionary. Yeah "if there's a market and no legal infringements then..." let me complete the sentence, then... we will have many more Global Rock 100's looking to dupe customers and dealers.
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Finally, we're talking about knockoff's!

But there is no fooling involved, a manufacturer selling a premium product and falling short on multiple occasions can be close to fooling the customer, but a product that is branded otherwise but still meets safety regulations to be put up in stores is nowhere close to fooling a customer, that is neglect from the customers end.
Ok do you think the Royal Bullet is safe in terms of weight distribution and other such design standards. For instance I can see they have fitted the RE 14.5 litres fuel tank on that frame. Looking at the customers complaint about Global Rock 100 I think it is fooling the customers big time by telling them they can "use" Honda engine parts to replace Global Rock 100 parts. If I am not wrong you are hinting at RE, if Yes then calling hundreds of thousands of customers of RE as fools sounds rude and misinformed and typical Fanboy/RE hater. RE for instance doesn't tell their customers that XXX part is compatible with their engines unlike Global Rock 100. It is like you mentioned human body parts are interchangeable. I still can't digest that given a fact that one person I knew had to wait for years to get a compatible kidney.
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If you're saying that these items with similar names are not approved and are sold under falsehood then that is a punishable offence but that is nowhere in conjunction with what Sigma is doing with the Rokk 200.
Agreed if not the name but design that Sigma Rokk 200 copied from KTM Duke 200.
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Not sure what celestial substance someone would have to be high on to walk into a store demanding a KTM Duke 200 and end up walking out or rather riding out on a Sigma Rokk 200.

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You do not need to own a product to form an opinion about it, and I believe that need not be debated since we already have strong opinions about the Sigma Rokk 200 which I doubt any of us would ever get to see in the flesh, but yes then there is this concern about substantiation, for that in my defense I have considerable experience riding alongside Royal Enfield's and working on them which is far more than the average Royal Enfield rider in the country.

Attachment 1781277

One of the Enfields I've worked on is this Bullet 500, which we rode from KL to DL via East and Back via West in under 2 weeks, with our highest recorded distance covered in a day coming in the ballpark of 900 km's, no service stations visits or anything as such I worked on both the motorcycles seen the picture by myself by the side of the road, which is more experience than the average consumer who is a prime contributor to the said sales figures.
Having riding for years now I can turn a wrench and tinker with a screwdriver. Not that I call myself an expert but I can hold my own. Having lived with motorcycles I for one have never been left stranded due to broken parts despite of riding hard. Only once I got stranded and that was due to a busted faulty battery no fault of the motorcycles per se. I am one of the many prime contributors to the said sales of RE. Mine is bigger than you doesn't exactly work here mate while I quote you saying, "no service stations visits or anything as such I worked on both the motorcycles seen the picture by myself by the side of the road, which is more experience than the average consumer who is a prime contributor to the said sales figures." I can say that too, but I don't as I seldom like belittling fellow riders by saying "mine is bigger than yours or I have more experience than you".

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Either your group is extremely lucky or rides at an entirely different pace from us.

Attachment 1781278

This one rather is more of a brand new machine with under 5k on the odo, the exhaust literally broke free while riding.
Likewise either your friend is extremely unlucky or you guys ride at an entirely different pace than me and my group. Explore the internet in your free time and you will find numerous such examples from the like of BMW GS Stanchion failure, Bajaj RS/NS200's front alloy wheel breaking in shards and front column collapsing, RE Himalayan's chassis breaking, Duke 390 alloy cracking, and many more examples as such. Does this stop people from buying them by seeing such examples. I don't think so.
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I do understand being proud of ones machine but then again we should be realists, if a manufacturer expects me as a consumer to cough up a premium then this is not what is I would expect, but say if I were offered the likes of the Sigma Rokk 200 for quite a reasonable price then I would have nothing to complain about, even the sub standard run-in 1500 km's warranty for that matter because as a consumer I see a win-win situation, I get absolutely what I pay for, nothing less, nothing more.
Being a realist makes me realize how an old school pushrod engine with weighty issues needs to be ridden and maintained. Yeah then you should also read Sigma Rokk costs about 1.4 lakhs or thereabouts and if one is ok with 1500 kms warranty for close to 1.4 lakh rupees then I have nothing more to say on this wonderful forum. And you call this is a win-win situation. Wow! like you were justifying the Global Rock 100's sad demise despite coming from a dubious company for duping their dealers and customers. It was like Global Rock 100 saying "You get what you pay for!". No wonder you also show support for Global Rock 100 irrespective of the dubious quality and "can use" Honda engine parts on the same motorcycle less than 2 years old.
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As for Bajaj Pulsar's, they are an absolute disaster when it comes to finesse but irrespective of the number of blown seals as long as you make sure that there's oil in it and the oil is changed at 2k intervals then it would keep on running, they're the Honda Cub's of the Indian performance market, if such a thing actually exists.
I see that you own a Bajaj Pulsar so are making a sweeping statement like, "they are an absolute disaster when it comes to finesse." Well we have a couple of Bajaj Pulsar's in our riding group and they hold up well during the rides, also blown seals can be a result of overfilling the oil and I give a benefit of doubt to Pulsar on that regard. I blew my RE AVL Thunderbird's right front fork oil seal due to riding it on a terrain and punishing it which it is not meant for. Can't blame the motorcycle though.
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The Honda CB750 is an example of competition derived innovation rather than being an original as it had its roots from the CB450 which again is a UJM though remarkable even more than the CB750, the CB750 being a huge success is a different story it was more notion that technical superiority that resulted in it being a success, the consumers wanted a big bike, so Honda gave them a big bike.
Mate none of the Big British or American motorcycles at that time had any inline 4 motorcycles mass produced so there is no question of competition because the Japanese too were making single and parallel twin motorcycles on their own. The design of an inline 4 did exist before the Japanese revolutionized it just like the quartz which was disapproved by the Swiss watch industry and the Japanese took and perfected it into mass production quartz watches and the rest is history. Oh man your explanation of notion with regards to calling Honda CB750 big bike makes me chuckle. Remember the British parallel twins were on an average bigger in engine size than Honda CB750 the American V twins had an even bigger engine size, although power was more in the CB750. You say it was a notion and not technical superiority for Honda CB750. Ok which manufacturer at that time gave a smooth inline 4 engine on a mass produced motorcycle? which 750cc motorcycle of the same era gave as much power of close to 70 bhp stock? and finally I quote, "The Society of Automotive Engineers of Japan, Inc. rates the 1969 CB750 as one of the 240 Landmarks of Japanese Automotive Technology." Now do you challenge even that by saying and I quote, "it was more notion that technical superiority". The CB450 no doubt a very good motorcycle but was similar to other parallel twin motorcycles of the British like the Norton Dominator, Triumph Tiger 100 and many others. The CB750 though based on it was totally different and revolutionary in terms of technology and performance and your thought of "more notion that technical superiority" notwithstanding.
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I guess I've put forth all my thoughts on the matter and I fear pushing any more would end up going around in circles with not value addition to the topic, so peace out it is from my end.
A.P.
Me too mate. But putting forth what we think, see and experience teaches us more is what I feel rather than going around in circles.

Last edited by navin_v8 : 16th July 2018 at 12:55.
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Old 17th July 2018, 03:21   #21
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Default Re: Warning: this may make your eyes bleed and cause psychological distress. Meet the Sigma Rokk 200

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Originally Posted by navin_v8 View Post
Oh this is going to be interesting. Remember the ICML Rhino the indigenous clone/rip off "inspired" by the legendary Toyota Qualis. What happened to it? It was a cheap knock off with dubious quality which tried to reign on the success of Toyota Qualis. I will give it to an indigenous company like Mahindra which brought in their Xylo to take on Innova. The Xylo's design and stance and basic engineering were different compared to Innova. Mahindra didn't ape/copy or rip off the design from Toyota Innova.
Well I guess we'll have to settle with the fact that not all companies can come up with models that are absolutely unique, now as far as the Sonalika Rhino went the similarities at least to me seems visual and the visual aspects of an automobile is only part of the story or at least so I feel. Because going by the spec. sheet I fail to find any concerning similarities.

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Oh that's sad! but what about the reliability and quality of the Global Rock 100 bike. Like the way you say about RE's in general. I came across this link about the dubious quality of the said Rock 100 bike and the plight of the customers who owned them.
https://www.consumercomplaints.in/co...e-c327064.html

The Global Rock 100 looks like a love child between the Hero Splendor and Bajaj Platina with a Chinese engine. Ah yes! let me enlighten you and others with what happened to Global Automobiles which offered the Rock 100 bike. See article below:

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/19959073.cms

It is appalling to see someone glorifying such dubious brands and diluting the very essence of the term indigenous.

Nope I don't think so. Reading and showing the above article about Global Rock 100 to everyone on this forum isn't as insignificant like watching a game on TV by two fanboys.

That's exactly what happens to dubious companies trying to cash in on someone else's success. Your example of Global Rock 100 is an ideal testament of this.

Oh I see. Again I will emphasize you to the read the TOI article and customer's and dealer's plight who bought the Global Rock 100. I would rather go with pure notion by buying a Hero Splendor than betting my hard earned money on Global Rock 100 and its kind. I believe Lambretta had filed a suit against SIL for non usage of Lambretta brand name and reclaiming it, till then SIL happily made Lambretta variants until caught by the Lambretta consortium. So in your parlance keep copying/ripping off "inspired by" design until you get caught by the law.
I honestly had no idea that the Rock 100 had caused such an issue, the only reason for me mentioning it was due to the near throw-away prices it was available for and the exceptional fuel mileage offered by it which realistically was way above the what the CT100 and Splendor could offer.

Only a handful of people I knew owned the motorcycle and they had to be serviced locally due to not having an authorized dealer in Kollam.

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Oh please customization is different than Jugaad and I don't need to give a link to the Oxford dictionary. Yeah "if there's a market and no legal infringements then..." let me complete the sentence, then... we will have many more Global Rock 100's looking to dupe customers and dealers.
More insights from someone practicing law would help clarify things I believe because from where I see things, either what is being done here(irrespective of company) is perfectly legal and within permissible bounds OR something is amiss and beyond my comprehension. I hope someone would be able to shed some light on why companies who have allegedly copied or duped existing products fall under the radar until things reach a point where a customer is adversely affected.

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Having riding for years now I can turn a wrench and tinker with a screwdriver. Not that I call myself an expert but I can hold my own. Having lived with motorcycles I for one have never been left stranded due to broken parts despite of riding hard. Only once I got stranded and that was due to a busted faulty battery no fault of the motorcycles per se. I am one of the many prime contributors to the said sales of RE. Mine is bigger than you doesn't exactly work here mate while I quote you saying, "no service stations visits or anything as such I worked on both the motorcycles seen the picture by myself by the side of the road, which is more experience than the average consumer who is a prime contributor to the said sales figures." I can say that too, but I don't as I seldom like belittling fellow riders by saying "mine is bigger than yours or I have more experience than you".

Likewise either your friend is extremely unlucky or you guys ride at an entirely different pace than me and my group. Explore the internet in your free time and you will find numerous such examples from the like of BMW GS Stanchion failure, Bajaj RS/NS200's front alloy wheel breaking in shards and front column collapsing, RE Himalayan's chassis breaking, Duke 390 alloy cracking, and many more examples as such. Does this stop people from buying them by seeing such examples. I don't think so.
The intention was not to show-off but rather to advocate for my credibility around motorcycles since you put forth the question of ownership. As for the situation represented, we were really on a shoestring budget so we could not accomodate service center visits or any mishaps that would arise from a random mechanics ignorance irrespective of whether ASC or not, plus it is a personal choice as far as ownership goes, both the motorcycles I currently own are worked on by myself, they've never had to visit the dealership for a periodic checkup since purchase, I'm fine with giving up warranty for the sake of peace of mind.

All things break and defects are part of every production cycle which is quite understandable, but when a pattern is observed irrespective of model then it raises alarm, that is all what I was saying, again it might be that my co-rider was on the unlucky end of the spectrum but then again not all the people I know who pull long hauls on RE's could end on the flip side as well, though not quite impossible the chances do not look encouraging from an observers point of view.

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I see that you own a Bajaj Pulsar so are making a sweeping statement like, "they are an absolute disaster when it comes to finesse." Well we have a couple of Bajaj Pulsar's in our riding group and they hold up well during the rides, also blown seals can be a result of overfilling the oil and I give a benefit of doubt to Pulsar on that regard. I blew my RE AVL Thunderbird's right front fork oil seal due to riding it on a terrain and punishing it which it is not meant for. Can't blame the motorcycle though.
Well this is one of those things about motorcycling you just cant put a finger on. Reliability from what I've come to understand is a relative and subjective term.

I say the Pulsar lacks finesse as I've owned a Karizma in the past. Bajaj's leak oil whereas Honda's leak compression, this is more or less a known fact among enthusiasts who've owned both specific motorcycles of the two manufacturers pertaining to the same class.

Again, the first time the P220 blew a seal was when I had to haul-ass for 400 km's before even considering a break due to certain political interference en-route, and this is from using the exact 1150ml of fluids measured and poured to the dot. Over time I've learnt to ignore such petty matters, though crude the Pulsar gets the job done without fail and at reasonable cost which ultimately is what I bought it for, at the same time the Karizma would not have blown a seal but random compression loss would have left me in a pickle considering that I had to move fast due to situational demands. Which again is why I believe the concept of reliability is purely subjective unless a trend proves otherwise.

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Me too mate. But putting forth what we think, see and experience teaches us more is what I feel rather than going around in circles.
True so far, I hope the learning continues.
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Old 17th July 2018, 10:41   #22
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Default Re: Warning: this may make your eyes bleed and cause psychological distress. Meet the Sigma Rokk 200

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Originally Posted by ashwinprakas View Post
Well I guess we'll have to settle with the fact that not all companies can come up with models that are absolutely unique, now as far as the Sonalika Rhino went the similarities at least to me seems visual and the visual aspects of an automobile is only part of the story or at least so I feel. Because going by the spec. sheet I fail to find any concerning similarities.
Mate like I said before and let me quote myself, "blatant copying of body design(read visual aspect) of various models of Rolls Royce, Bentley, Range Rover, BMW(including motorcycles), Mercedes Benz, Mitsubishi, Toyota, etc. by Chinese manufacturers is OK. R&D costs, man-hours, designers who put their blood and sweat into designing, etc. be damned!" Same goes for ICML Rhino as well because like Chinese Automobile manufacturers who copy designs as mentioned above are not necessarily using the same engine configuration as reputed brands. Same goes for Global Rock 100 which apes Splendor/Platina and uses a copy of Honda engine made by some Chinese entity.
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I honestly had no idea that the Rock 100 had caused such an issue, the only reason for me mentioning it was due to the near throw-away prices it was available for and the exceptional fuel mileage offered by it which realistically was way above the what the CT100 and Splendor could offer.
Did you test the mileage or is there any proof of mileage offered by Global Rock 100? because I could read on that link which I mentioned before that owners were unhappy with low mileage against claimed mileage by the company. Again should I say, "You get what you pay for!"
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Only a handful of people I knew owned the motorcycle and they had to be serviced locally due to not having an authorized dealer in Kollam.
And that is the reason why I said, I would buy a Hero Splendor based on pure notion as it will have adequate manufacturer backing in terms of company warranty and after sales service with OEM spare availability unlike Global Rock 100 where the dealer tells the customer they can interchange Honda parts with their bike. Again should I say, "You get what you pay for!"
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More insights from someone practicing law would help clarify things I believe because from where I see things, either what is being done here(irrespective of company) is perfectly legal and within permissible bounds OR something is amiss and beyond my comprehension. I hope someone would be able to shed some light on why companies who have allegedly copied or duped existing products fall under the radar until things reach a point where a customer is adversely affected.
Let's face it the law in our country is lax unless someone points it out and it catches the lawman's attention. It is very similar to heavily modified chopper bikes which are illegal as per RTO but people continue to do it until one fine day they get caught by the RTO cop while riding on road. Take the example of China where blatant copying/rip/knock off of various iconic cars is done mercilessly(mentioned above). The law there operates differently besides the mentality of the local people and government(read all the below articles carefully to understand this nexus). See link below for reference:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tychode.../#7ff7b01d6e2a

I would like to quote one line from this article which stands out, "I asked the owner of the dealer how he felt about the cloning controversy. He smiled and said it was good for business: the SR9 was famous, people loved a cheap "Porsche," and he was selling a car a day. I asked whether he felt bad for Porsche, to which he replied it was their own fault for pricing their cars too high. He was also absolutely unafraid about any legal difficulties."

Looking at the above reason makes me think these people have no ethics in doing business, forget about acknowledging copying they are justifying it by saying it is the reputed manufacturers fault in pricing their cars so high! beats me hollow.

There has been a backlash from reputed carmakers against this and some of them are now going after them legally. See links below:

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-ja...-idUKKCN0YP1JJ

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/f...nockoff-f-150/

https://www.forbes.com/2007/08/29/da...l#1c5efa2f27ce

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring...e-copycat.html

http://www.eurekamagazine.co.uk/desi...makers/165828/
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The intention was not to show-off but rather to advocate for my credibility around motorcycles since you put forth the question of ownership. As for the situation represented, we were really on a shoestring budget so we could not accomodate service center visits or any mishaps that would arise from a random mechanics ignorance irrespective of whether ASC or not, plus it is a personal choice as far as ownership goes, both the motorcycles I currently own are worked on by myself, they've never had to visit the dealership for a periodic checkup since purchase, I'm fine with giving up warranty for the sake of peace of mind.
But that's just you, so you can't others to expect doing all the DIY by themselves every time on their motorcycles. Whenever I get time I keep tinkering around with my motorcycles, but there are times when I have to leave it to my trusty mechanic(who has started using a torque wrench on my recommendation). Warranty in today's world is of prime importance, in my case I got a free battery replacement from RE as it failed within a couple of weeks. I know many others whose starter motor, IC, EFi, etc. were replaced under warranty. Nowadays most companies give a 2 years warranty on bikes + extended warranty as well which I think is good for majority of buyers.
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All things break and defects are part of every production cycle which is quite understandable, but when a pattern is observed irrespective of model then it raises alarm, that is all what I was saying, again it might be that my co-rider was on the unlucky end of the spectrum but then again not all the people I know who pull long hauls on RE's could end on the flip side as well, though not quite impossible the chances do not look encouraging from an observers point of view.
There are enough examples of people taking RE on long hauls and making it back in one piece on this very forum. Yes parts fail on RE and some untoward incidents happen like in case of Himalayan chassis breaking but that happens with other manufacturers as well. I also agree that RE's QC has to pull up their socks to prevent such issues. There are some owners on this forum from outside of India who seldom have issues with their RE like ArizonaJim who himself is a DIY'er.
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Well this is one of those things about motorcycling you just cant put a finger on. Reliability from what I've come to understand is a relative and subjective term.
Yeah but can't say that with Japanese engineering. Yes there are failures in that too but is still better than others. Reason I still see Yamaha RX100's, first gen CBZ's(we have one in the family), first gen Karizma's(we have one in the family), Hero Honda CD100, etc. running around merrily. I was amazed to see pristine condition Yamaha RX100's, Suzuki Max 100 R's, etc. during my visit to Kerala. There was a generation 1 Yamaha RX100 with a Made in Japan stamped on the crankcase which belonged to my maternal uncle in Kerala. It was used until mid 2000's when it was sold as uncle stopped riding two wheelers. I rode it and it felt as tight as it came during the mid 80's.
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I say the Pulsar lacks finesse as I've owned a Karizma in the past. Bajaj's leak oil whereas Honda's leak compression, this is more or less a known fact among enthusiasts who've owned both specific motorcycles of the two manufacturers pertaining to the same class.

Again, the first time the P220 blew a seal was when I had to haul-ass for 400 km's before even considering a break due to certain political interference en-route, and this is from using the exact 1150ml of fluids measured and poured to the dot. Over time I've learnt to ignore such petty matters, though crude the Pulsar gets the job done without fail and at reasonable cost which ultimately is what I bought it for, at the same time the Karizma would not have blown a seal but random compression loss would have left me in a pickle considering that I had to move fast due to situational demands. Which again is why I believe the concept of reliability is purely subjective unless a trend proves otherwise.
Maybe or maybe not as Honda products are extremely reliable and cost effective. There are failures but very limited and far less than others. Case in point a Hero Honda CBZ first generation (156cc) which is there in our family. It continues to run and has seldom had any issues.
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True so far, I hope the learning continues.
Likewise mate.
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