[marcussantiago]

I apologize in advance for any mental trauma this may cause, but felt it too newsworthy not to share.

Pakistani bike Sigma Rokk 200 pretends to be KTM Duke 200:



They say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but this contraption from across the border challenges that idiom.

FTA: "The bike in question is the Sigma Rokk 200 and it takes copying to a whole new level. Taking the first look at this motorcycle will instantly reveal that this one is a copy of KTM Duke 200 naked streetfighter that is quite popular in India. The Sigma Rokk 200 is inspired (too seriously) from the KTM that clearly reflects in its styling and design. While the Sigma Rokk 200 may heavily look like the KTM Duke 200, it is nowhere near to it when it comes to technology. The Pakistani bike ditches the inverted forks that come on the KTM Duke 200 and employs conventional telescopic units up front in order to keep the cost in check. Also, one can clearly see in the images that the build quality of Rokk 200 is not even close to the KTM... In fact, if anyone around you is thinking to get their KTM Duke 200 painted in green, this is the perfect example of why you should not."

I suggest we all start a GoFundMe to pay for the therapy needed for any trauma this image may cause.

Link:

https://www.financialexpress.com/auto/bike-news/pakistani-bike-sigma-rokk-200-an-ugly-copy-of-ktm-duke-200-more-on-this-china-made-bike-with-just-1500-km-warranty/1238494/


Leaked footage of audience reaction upon this bike's unveiling:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn977W9HjWM

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Well, whats new? Except the green.

Hasn't this design been copied already by reputed brands?

Benelli -




UM Motorcycles -

[AtheK]

Not just those two, there are plethora of them, including our very own RS200. It was covered in detail in an article i read.

You can check them on this link below.

https://www.cartoq.com/copycat-bikes...r-to-ktm-duke/

[srini1785]

I find it interesting. If indeed the Pakistanis have done this mock up using material and man power available at their end only without Chinese help, then the result is worth it, at least , cosmetically. . I do not own a duke 390 and hence , can't comment on the technical aspects of the ride.

[AtheK]

Originally Posted by srini1785

I find it interesting. If indeed the Pakistanis have done this mock up using material and man power available at their end only without Chinese help, then the result is worth it, at least , cosmetically. . I do not own a duke 390 and hence , can't comment on the technical aspects of the ride.

I doubt if they would have the manufacturing poweress to pull this off, probably made in China and imported to Pakistan.

I might be wrong though.

[ashwinprakas]

I fail to understand this fascination with my people, the fascination or rather obsession with "ORIGINALITY", especially when the irony being that people in the general sense are anything but original.

Not going off topic speaking about psychology, hence coming back to motorcycles I would like to point out that anything other than the first contraption that ran with a motor between two wheels on which you'd swing your leg over to ride is a copy of something or the other.

A remarkable feat here is that the Pakistani's are able to provide an affordable offering for their customer base, as for the Chinese intervention I hope the people realize that it is the way the game is played be it Rokk, Benelli or even the Jawa.

[timuseravan]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

I fail to understand this fascination with my people, the fascination or rather obsession with "ORIGINALITY", especially when the irony being that people in the general sense are anything but original.

Not going off topic speaking about psychology, hence coming back to motorcycles I would like to point out that anything other than the first contraption that ran with a motor between two wheels on which you'd swing your leg over to ride is a copy of something or the other.

There is difference between being classified as something and being a rip-off copy.

All motorcycles are two wheels with engine between them and this does not mean they are copies but that they are classified as same type.

To apply your reasoning to a ridiculous extreme, it would mean all people are copies of each other!

The "Rokk" is a blatent rip-off and the intention is to clearly pass it off as a Duke. This should invite all the ridicule possible.

[motorpsycho]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

I fail to understand this fascination with my people, the fascination or rather obsession with "ORIGINALITY", especially when the irony being that people in the general sense are anything but original.

For me, it is the sense of ownership. I love watches and would love to own a Seamaster, I can buy a replica for 1% of the price, but it will not be the same, the sense and pride of ownership will be missing.



The Monalisa and another other painting are not the same, just because they both hav been drawn and have used paints, there is a lot more depth to it.

[landcruiser123]

I throw a challenge to these manufacturers:

Make a Royal enfield copy of even lower standard.

But seriously, they are terrible. Saw their website, our streetside mechanics can pull off better juggaad.

[payeng]

Originally Posted by AtheK

I doubt if they would have the manufacturing poweress to pull this off, probably made in China and imported to Pakistan.

I might be wrong though.

You are not wrong. Those are CHINESE made stuff / copies.

By the way there are no domestic auto manufacturers (both 2-Wheelers and 4-Wheelers) in Pakistan.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by timuseravan

There is difference between being classified as something and being a rip-off copy.

All motorcycles are two wheels with engine between them and this does not mean they are copies but that they are classified as same type.

To apply your reasoning to a ridiculous extreme, it would mean all people are copies of each other!

The "Rokk" is a blatant rip-off and the intention is to clearly pass it off as a Duke. This should invite all the ridicule possible.

Going through your post I understand that you have only given thought to the visual elements of the motorcycle.

Now the motorcycle consumer would come in different shapes and sizes with varying knowledge about motorcycles and what not, some may opt for a particular model based on its looks whereas some would go for it based on its specifications on paper then again the less informed or rather less interested would go for a particular motorcycles merely for its perceived value not because he/she actually wants to ride but because of the value addition perceived to be gained when seen riding the said motorcycle.

So thinking of the Rokk or whatever the manufacturer would like to call it, from a visual element it does strongly take from the KTM's no second thoughts about it, though a good look at the Rokk would tell you that similarities end with perception and actually swapping components between the motorcycles would not be possible due to obvious differences in component design, mount points and size proportions, and then there is the motor! Sure it does say 200cc but any motorcyclist worth their salt would say that it is nothing even remotely close to a high compression short stroke DOHC LC'd setup as the KTM's, so it doesn't really make sense to say that this motorcycle is a "blatant rip-off" of the KTM's, rather it would be best to say that the visual design elements have been inspired by the KTM's because in reality you could only swap components between the motorcycles such as foot pegs, grab rails etc without compromising functionality.

On a different yet similar thought, UM has a few models up their sleeve that run off a motor strikingly similar to that of the 223cc Honda CRF230 unit on the Hero Honda Karizma, similarities go to such extents that working components can be swapped among the two without any compromise in functionality, now what would you say about that? As for me I would still stick with "inspired" cause to be a rip off you would need to actually be able to interchange a higher percentage of components considering the whole package and the motor is just part of the package.

As for humans, other than for conditioning(both physical and mental) we are more or less the same, in fact you and I would have a higher percentage of compatibility exchanging working components i.e organs than the Duke and Rokk all the while having nothing in common as far as our lifestyles and choices go, intriguing isn't it.

Originally Posted by motorpsycho

For me, it is the sense of ownership. I love watches and would love to own a Seamaster, I can buy a replica for 1% of the price, but it will not be the same, the sense and pride of ownership will be missing.

The Monalisa and another other painting are not the same, just because they both have been drawn and have used paints, there is a lot more depth to it.

A knock-off is a knock-off irrespective of similarities, but then again if I have a particular liking for a 'Citizen' and if the pricing doesn't seem reasonable then I could opt for a 'HMT' of a similar movement, because as far as practical functionality goes it would be more or less the same while not risking the plethora of problems if I go for an actual knock-off which goes by the name 'City-Zen'.

Depth again is something that has more to do with perception than fact, I do read extensively and at times have done away with 3 or 4 300~500'ish pages books a week, and to keep things interesting I switch between authors, say if I start with King then the second one would be from Koontz and so on, more frequent than expected I do sense a similarity in style and when I communicate the same with forum members only a part of them see the similarity. Now I cannot go about saying that the rest who do not see my point are shallow for the lack of a better word, because in the end similarities strike us in different ways.

Though to each his own let us pray that better judgment always prevails.

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

I throw a challenge to these manufacturers:

Make a Royal enfield copy of even lower standard.

I almost fell off my seat imagining the likelihood of Mr.Sid going through TBhp and seeing your post and giving off the typical Indian smirk. "Challenge our 'Impeccable Standards', eh?"

[timuseravan]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

On a different yet similar thought, UM has a few models up their sleeve that run off a motor strikingly similar to that of the 223cc Honda CRF230 unit on the Hero Honda Karizma, similarities go to such extents that working components can be swapped among the two without any compromise in functionality, now what would you say about that? As for me I would still stick with "inspired" cause to be a rip off you would need to actually be able to interchange a higher percentage of components considering the whole package and the motor is just part of the package.

Sorry but you have completely changed your argument. There is no claim what so ever that parts can be changed between a rip-off and an original.
There is a small line between being "inspired" and knocking something off. And the Roxx clearly crosses it.
Are you honestly claiming that someone would buy the "Roxx" based on its engine power and specifications?

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

As for humans, other than for conditioning(both physical and mental) we are more or less the same, in fact you and I would have a higher percentage of compatibility exchanging working components i.e organs than the Duke and Rokk all the while having nothing in common as far as our lifestyles and choices go, intriguing isn't it.

Now this is complete ridiculous. I can take the "Roxx" engine and fit it in a Duke and get it working. I doubt we can get similar results if we exchange our stomach, no?

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

A knock-off is a knock-off irrespective of similarities, but then again if I have a particular liking for a 'Citizen' and if the pricing doesn't seem reasonable then I could opt for a 'HMT' of a similar movement, because as far as practical functionality goes it would be more or less the same while not risking the plethora of problems if I go for an actual knock-off which goes by the name 'City-Zen'.

Why is 'City-Zen' a knockoff of 'Citizen' and not an inspiration? Clearly the 'City-Zen' runs a different movement than a 'Citizen' and parts are not interchangeable.
So per your own reasoning, it is not a knock-off?

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

Depth again is something that has more to do with perception than fact, I do read extensively and at times have done away with 3 or 4 300~500'ish pages books a week, and to keep things interesting I switch between authors, say if I start with King then the second one would be from Koontz and so on, more frequent than expected I do sense a similarity in style and when I communicate the same with forum members only a part of them see the similarity. Now I cannot go about saying that the rest who do not see my point are shallow for the lack of a better word, because in the end similarities strike us in different ways.

Again it seems you are getting confused between classification and copy.
If two books have similar themes, they can be classified as being of similar genre or tagged in that category.
Not being "copies".
So to give a movie example, while Godfather and Goodfellas have similar themes, they are not copies but belong to same genre.

[vishy76]

You guys can argue about cloning as much as possible, but the warranty that this thing offers is an industry first!



The exhaust note errr sound has also been listed as a feature here.

On a more serious note, this is just a direct rip off. No questions asked at all. The side profile, front and even the rear are clearly carried over from the Duke ,not inspired.

The petal discs seem to be a size smaller than the Duke 200 too although the trellis frame seems to be directly carried again. (Or is it?)

All of this comes at a price of, wait for it 1.41 Lakhs!

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

Going through your post I understand that you have only given thought to the visual elements of the motorcycle.

Mate per you the blatant copying of body design of various models of Rolls Royce, Bentley, Range Rover, BMW(including motorcycles), Mercedes Benz, Mitsubishi, Toyota, etc. by Chinese manufacturers is OK. R&D costs, man-hours, designers who put their blood and sweat into designing, etc. be damned. Wow.

Now the motorcycle consumer would come in different shapes and sizes with varying knowledge about motorcycles and what not, some may opt for a particular model based on its looks whereas some would go for it based on its specifications on paper then again the less informed or rather less interested would go for a particular motorcycles merely for its perceived value not because he/she actually wants to ride but because of the value addition perceived to be gained when seen riding the said motorcycle.

No wonder the Chinese consumers love the blatant rip offs of the above mentioned brands. Are they less informed or have no knowledge about the particular model they're buying, I don't think so mate. BTW they also have a rip off of Bajaj Pulsar being sold there. Looking at your above statements it is clear why they have surpassed USA as the biggest automobile market. Little to no R&D in designing while churning out cars and motorcycles by gazillions while doing reverse engineering. Consumers are happy buying copies/rip offs or "inspired" by designs, manufacturers are happy selling copies of iconic models, economy is booming, etc. etc. Ethics, What Ethics?

So thinking of the Rokk or whatever the manufacturer would like to call it, from a visual element it does strongly take from the KTM's no second thoughts about it, though a good look at the Rokk would tell you that similarities end with perception and actually swapping components between the motorcycles would not be possible due to obvious differences in component design, mount points and size proportions, and then there is the motor! Sure it does say 200cc but any motorcyclist worth their salt would say that it is nothing even remotely close to a high compression short stroke DOHC LC'd setup as the KTM's, so it doesn't really make sense to say that this motorcycle is a "blatant rip-off" of the KTM's, rather it would be best to say that the visual design elements have been inspired by the KTM's because in reality you could only swap components between the motorcycles such as foot pegs, grab rails etc without compromising functionality.

On a different yet similar thought, UM has a few models up their sleeve that run off a motor strikingly similar to that of the 223cc Honda CRF230 unit on the Hero Honda Karizma, similarities go to such extents that working components can be swapped among the two without any compromise in functionality, now what would you say about that? As for me I would still stick with "inspired" cause to be a rip off you would need to actually be able to interchange a higher percentage of components considering the whole package and the motor is just part of the package.

This is hilarious mate. I saw a similar mod job/rip-off "inspired" by design. See link: https://www.financialexpress.com/aut...l-too/1159468/
Fuel tank, tool box, seat, etc copied err "inspired" from Royal Enfield and pasted on Kawasaki Bajaj 4S champion. I am sure there is a market for this too. Ethics, well who cares?

A knock-off is a knock-off irrespective of similarities, but then again if I have a particular liking for a 'Citizen' and if the pricing doesn't seem reasonable then I could opt for a 'HMT' of a similar movement, because as far as practical functionality goes it would be more or less the same while not risking the plethora of problems if I go for an actual knock-off which goes by the name 'City-Zen'.

Mate the fact remains HMT manufactures the 0271 Miyota Movement under license from Citizen Japan. Not just HMT you can look for more watches using the Miyota movement like Invicta, Stuhrling, etc. Interestingly Invicta, Stuhrling, etc. watch designs are rippoff/copy or "inspired" by Rolex Submariner Date Just, Omega Seamaster, etc. I don't think Rokk does so with KTM, at least body design wise. Neither Invicta or Sturhling with regards to Rolex and Omega.

Though to each his own let us pray that better judgment always prevails.

I sincerely hope so it does.

I almost fell off my seat imagining the likelihood of Mr.Sid going through TBhp and seeing your post and giving off the typical Indian smirk. "Challenge our 'Impeccable Standards', eh?"

Mate which current RE model do you own, if I may ask? Just curious to know.

[quote=ashwinprakas;4428022] Not going off topic speaking about psychology, hence coming back to motorcycles I would like to point out that anything other than the first contraption that ran with a motor between two wheels on which you'd swing your leg over to ride is a copy of something or the other.[/qupte]
The Japanese used to do that during the 50's and early 60's with motorcycles but things changed and they started designing their own "Original" models. UJM was based on some British motorcycles, but soon the Japanese started making their own designs in house and the rest is history.

A remarkable feat here is that the Pakistani's are able to provide an affordable offering for their customer base, as for the Chinese intervention I hope the people realize that it is the way the game is played be it Rokk, Benelli or even the Jawa.

Akin to the Royal Indian Bullet eh! which I mentioned above.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by timuseravan

Sorry but you have completely changed your argument. There is no claim what so ever that parts can be changed between a rip-off and an original.
There is a small line between being "inspired" and knocking something off. And the Roxx clearly crosses it.
Are you honestly claiming that someone would buy the "Roxx" based on its engine power and specifications?

Not changing my argument, just stating a fact as if you observe you can see that the Roxx panels and chassis have different mount points as compared to the Duke, it only shares its form factor, same as with the Naked Tornado or the X250. So what I'm stating is that you can say that they're insipired creations of the new lean streat fighter platform but you cant call them knock-off's, if that was the case then the Yamaha RX series would be a knock-off of the Suzuki AX series and what not.

As for people opting for the Roxx or any other motorcycle, a motorcycle is not all about what it is on paper or what people or rather the society thinks it is. I myself and a few other enthusiasts are the kind that would completely shy away from anything that runs off of Fuel Injection or Liquid Cooling, now this might not make sense to the general census but those who've ever held a spanner in the middle of nowhere would know why, that is just that. Motorcyclists come in all shapes and sizes, so it would be just ignorant to say that any motorcycle would not be opted for just for just because of its specifications, if that was the case the RE's would've been extinct by now, would'nt it?

Now this is complete ridiculous. I can take the "Roxx" engine and fit it in a Duke and get it working. I doubt we can get similar results if we exchange our stomach, no?

The Duke's motor doesn't come with an overhead hangar where as the motor on the Roxx comes with an overhead hangar, which is just one of the differences I can spot from this picture.

When it comes to people, in the event of a failure of an organ you can receive a substitute from a donor irrespective of having anything in common with that person. The same is not the case with motorcycles, even when it comes to models relating to the same brand you would difficulty in swapping parts, that is just that.

Why is 'City-Zen' a knockoff of 'Citizen' and not an inspiration? Clearly the 'City-Zen' runs a different movement than a 'Citizen' and parts are not interchangeable.
So per your own reasoning, it is not a knock-off?

I believe just about anyone can differentiate an inspration from its original whereas it takes a trained eye or close observation to spot a knock-off.

Remove the badges of the KTM and Sigma and show them to just about anyone who has an interest in motorcycles and they would be able to tell them apart, thats just about as far as the similarities go.

Again it seems you are getting confused between classification and copy.
If two books have similar themes, they can be classified as being of similar genre or tagged in that category.
Not being "copies".
So to give a movie example, while Godfather and Goodfellas have similar themes, they are not copies but belong to same genre.

You miss the point, I understand genre but that is not what is being referred to here, not even deus ex machina which in then end of things is bound to show some similarity but rather the psyche of the protagonist or the unwinding of the story be it if ones a short order cook or if the others an ex-cop.

I believe our discussion has reached its peak purpose and we have our own respective views on the matter and strong foundations to support them, so I guess it would be best to let the rest share their views on the same.