[ghatotkatch]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Ouch. Speaking of the Dominar, its sad to see such a competent bike not do well in the market. That's one dud that Bajaj's marketing campaign can take full credit for.

Indeed sad to see such a fantastic bike not getting the traction it deserves. But what exactly is the rationale behind blaming it on the marketing campaign?

I guess those who were indeed after the emotional/retro/what-not value, would have anyway not bought it, no matter the campaign. And those sitting on the fence, those who are annoyed by the noisy metallic snobbery, wanting better kit and equipment but not having many options, and those looking for value in the segment, would definitely see the point and get swayed by it. So why is it marketing campaign's failure?

In fact, the real competition, like the CBR250R or the Mojo or even the Dukes, which can be considered successful, don't get the volumes that Dominar is seeing now.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

A quick observation, R1 sales is listed zero. Perfect Riders dealership delivered matt black R1 in October 2018 for sure.

Are CBUs excluded from this list?

Data is sourced from AutoPunditz site. For previous months, Autopunditz had clearly marked '0' for Yamaha CBUs. This month, it's just removed from the table. Not sure if it's temporary or if Yamaha has really stopped reporting their superbike figures. Will need to take a call couple of months down the line.

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Thanks for sharing Crazy Driver, hope this becomes a monthly thing now.

As long as you keep posting your insights every month.

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

- In your first post, the column names in the top gainers and losers tables are incorrect. Instead of September to October, it says August to September. The numbers are correct for September to October.

Thank you. Something not only to correct, but to keep in mind going forward as well. I've confused another BHPian too.

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

- Royal Enfield seems to have found its footing at around the 70,000 units mark. Surely they are aiming for even higher numbers.

Will split Royal Enfield and Jawa into a seperate graph once Jawa picks up steam. Should be an interesting battle.

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

- Honda's CBR1000RR sales figures for the year are definitely wrong.

I didn't get an answer from them. Personally feel its the CBR1000RR getting reported as CB1000R.

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

- Im surprised by the big spike in Z900 dispatches.

Given their low numbers, Kawasaki seems to be prioritizing products each month - and now they seem to have made a strategy of it for niche products too - like the ZX6R and the Versys 1000.

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

- Only 78 dispactches of the ZX10R all year after they announced their ground breaking pricing?

Or is the market genuinely this small?

Market is small for sure.

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

- Bad month for the RE 500cc offerings.

I feel the 500s will slowly fade away now - with the 650s completely bettering it in every department except for the macho sound.

Originally Posted by ghatotkatch

So why is it marketing campaign's failure?

I agree with him too. Pulsar CS400 which excited the nation so much, when launched as the Dominar and at a brilliant price tag - didn't capture the nation's interest? I think they got the positioning completely wrong then - and chasing Enfield later was the worst idea they could think of!

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by ghatotkatch

Indeed sad to see such a fantastic bike not getting the traction it deserves. But what exactly is the rationale behind blaming it on the marketing campaign?

Good question. I had posted about this very topic here - https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor...ml#post4254068 (Bajaj ridicules Royal Enfield in video ad)

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

As long as you keep posting your insights every month.

Hahaha, deal!

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Will split Royal Enfield and Jawa into a seperate graph once Jawa picks up steam. Should be an interesting battle.

Part tongue in cheek, part seriously, I dont think its going to be a fair battle in the long run. Lets see what the sales graphs tell us 12 months from now. I would love to see the Jawa bikes give RE a run for their money but with a limited dealer network, an unproven platform (to the common buyer), I doubt it will be the sales success many TBhpians envision that it will be.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

I didn't get an answer from them. Personally feel its the CBR1000RR getting reported as CB1000R.

Possible but even then only 5 CBR1000RR bikes sold this year seems less.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Given their low numbers, Kawasaki seems to be prioritizing products each month - and now they seem to have made a strategy of it for niche products too - like the ZX6R and the Versys 1000.

Even I had the same thought in my mind. But the Z900 isnt really selling all that much now so how long will dealers sit on these bikes? From a dealership perspective, I shudder to think what the new V1000 inventory is going to do to them. It isnt like the old V1000 was a hot seller either. Anyways this might spell good times for customers as the famous take it with handling charges or leave it Kawasaki mindset just might change and dealers will be forced to offer some discounts.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Market is small for sure.

Kawasaki just might have convinced all the litre class buyers to plonk down their money on the very affordable ZX10R and cleaned out the market for a while. I guess the only potential buyers left would be those who definitely didnt want a Kawasaki and are happy with Hondas CBR1000RR (affordable service), Suzuki GSX1000R (VVT) and Yamaha R1. Or maybe even a Street Triple RS.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

I feel the 500s will slowly fade away now - with the 650s completely bettering it in every department except for the macho sound.

I agree this will happen to an extent but the Classic 500 still seems to be doing decently well. The Bullet 500 buyer is an altogether different demographic as well and the bike seems to be steadily chugging along. From a business perspective, I wonder how profitable the 650s will be per bike as compared to say a Classic 350 / 500 where the investments in R&D (stop snickering all of you!) would have been paid off long ago and its all straight profits at this point in time.

[ghatotkatch]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

I agree with him too. Pulsar CS400 which excited the nation so much, when launched as the Dominar and at a brilliant price tag - didn't capture the nation's interest? I think they got the positioning completely wrong then - and chasing Enfield later was the worst idea they could think of!

I am not sure why lower-than-expected volumes mean not capturing nation's interest. Bajaj shot for the moon expecting 10k/month probably. But looking at other competent products in the market (competent - purely considering kit and equipment, not sentimental value), it's still doing fine.

As for chasing enfield, why shouldn't they? That's the biggest volume driver, in Dominar's price segment, selling mostly on sentimental value, despite lack of essentials like ABS and other goodies, that Dominar is offering.

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Good question. I had posted about this very topic here - https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor...ml#post4254068 (Bajaj ridicules Royal Enfield in video ad)

I read the post, and I don't think it answers why it's failure of the marketing campaign. What you mention in there is how the marketing campaign changed direction over time, and by some twisted logic Avenger also showed up in that analysis. But marketing campaigns do change directions, if the product is not catching up to your expected volumes. I read couple more posts there, and all of that just points at hurt sentiments, than objectivity.

Those ads were the reason I noticed Dominar in the first place. They hit the proverbial nail on its head. Showing shortcomings of a competitor for highlighting strengths of yours, in a light, tongue-in-cheek way, is hardly a bad marketing campaign.

Much of the responses I have come across, are on the lines of "The enfields may have all those flaws, but how can Bajaj make fun of it!?".

Blind fanboyism and cult/clan worships shouldn't decide what's right and wrong or good and bad. Objectivity should. I, for one, will definitely like to see many more such ad campaigns by other manufacturers as well.

[LipDog43]

Originally Posted by ghatotkatch

As for chasing enfield, why shouldn't they? That's the biggest volume driver, in Dominar's price segment, selling mostly on sentimental value, despite lack of essentials like ABS and other goodies, that Dominar is offering.

Those ads were the reason I noticed Dominar in the first place. They hit the proverbial nail on its head. Showing shortcomings of a competitor for highlighting strengths of yours, in a light, tongue-in-cheek way, is hardly a bad marketing campaign.

Agreed. Nothing wrong in chasing the market leader. Selling your product's strengths as opposed to ridiculing other's shortcomings - that is the choice where people believe Bajaj got off to a wrong start.

The other ads for the Dominar aren't exactly brilliant either, nor do they seem to make any sense. For example, twitter vs Dominar - what was that all about? Tinder vs Dominar? Seriously??
The Marketing department at Bajaj seems like it is run by someone with no understanding of bikes or enthusiasts.

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by ghatotkatch

Bajaj shot for the moon expecting 10k/month probably. But looking at other competent products in the market (competent - purely considering kit and equipment, not sentimental value), it's still doing fine.

So basically, the Dominar is doing good in terms of challenging its competitors that are not top in sales in its segment? I doubt Rajiv Bajaj gave the go ahead to his team saying lets target being #4 or #5.


Lets look at the numbers keeping aside Royal Enfield offerings for now. The Dominar had 659 dispatches. Within the Bajaj / KTM stable, the other big bikes that someone might consider are the P220 (9970 units), Duke 250 (620 units). For comparisons sake, the D390 did 553 units. Honda's ageing but competent and sensible CBR250 did 258 units. The Mojo did 12 units. The very capable Apache RR310 did 425. The FZ25 did 2340. UM motorcycles did a combined 264 as well. To see how well the Dominar did compared to its competitors that didnt sell on sentimental value, the list of bikes in decreasing order of monthly dispatches is
1. P220
2. FZ25
3. Dominar
4. Duke 250
5. Duke 390
6. Apache RR310
7. UM Motorcycles (combined)
8. CBR250
9. Mojo

Now even if you discount the P220 as not a direct competitor and eliminate it from the list, that makes the FZ25 the number 1 choice in the segment. Back to numbers, the FZ25 did 2340 dispatches. The Dominar did 659. It isnt even close.


Now bring in some of the segment favourite(s) that sell on sentimental value as per your post.
- Classic 350 (46,148)
- Bullet 350 (11,451)
- Thunderbird 350 (7,129)
- Electra (2,629)
- Classic 500 (1,238)
- Himalayan (1,089)

Obviously the Dominar's big target was the Classic 350. But Royal Enfield dispatched more than twice as many Classic 350s per day (1538) than what Bajaj did with the Dominar for the month (659).


I believe its safe to say that the Dominar is not doing fine in terms of sales.

Originally Posted by ghatotkatch

I read the post, and I don't think it answers why it's failure of the marketing campaign. What you mention in there is how the marketing campaign changed direction over time, and by some twisted logic Avenger also showed up in that analysis. But marketing campaigns do change directions, if the product is not catching up to your expected volumes. I read couple more posts there, and all of that just points at hurt sentiments, than objectivity.

OK let me try to explain again. When the Avenger ad campaign was created, Bajaj realized that they needed to embrace the fact that the Avenger buyers were looking to ride with the traditional tourers on their REs. Their video (taken from their own Youtube page) shows this. So now they were positioning their Avengers as equally capable to the Royal Enfields and being part of the same brotherhood. They actually show more of the Royal Enfield in the first few seconds than the Avenger! Watch the video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGqPQCfXIPA

But when the Dominar sales werent up to the mark, they gunned for the same traditional tourers mark (of which the Avenger was positioned as being equal) and showed that the Dominar was better. So while burying the Royal Enfields, they buried their own product the Avenger as well. Its so simple, Im not sure why you find my logic to be twisted.


Where the product manager and the marketing team failed is in their knee jerk reactions to changing the positioning of the Dominar so often.

Originally Posted by ghatotkatch

Those ads were the reason I noticed Dominar in the first place. They hit the proverbial nail on its head. Showing shortcomings of a competitor for highlighting strengths of yours, in a light, tongue-in-cheek way, is hardly a bad marketing campaign.

But what about the rest of us who have been following the Dominar from before that? What did the bike stand for now that the ad was released? Is it about night riding? Or hyper touring? Or about being better than RE and Bajaj Avengers? There hasnt been any consistency and thats where the positioning has been flawed.

Originally Posted by ghatotkatch

Blind fanboyism and cult/clan worships shouldn't decide what's right and wrong or good and bad. Objectivity should. I, for one, will definitely like to see many more such ad campaigns by other manufacturers as well.

Me too. If it translates into better sales that is .

[Sebring]

Pardon me but are Dominar and Enfield bikes in the same class? Visually these are miles apart and an Enfield buyer won't consider Dominar styling. Is my assessment wrong here? So gunning for Enfield in their ads smacked of the wrong strategy to me. Can we safely draw few parallels from the car market, here, or do bikes operate specifically?

Originally Posted by LipDog43

Agreed. Nothing wrong in chasing the market leader. Selling your product's strengths as opposed to ridiculing other's shortcomings - that is the choice where people believe Bajaj got off to a wrong start.

[ghatotkatch]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Now even if you discount the P220 as not a direct competitor and eliminate it from the list, that makes the FZ25 the number 1 choice in the segment. Back to numbers, the FZ25 did 2340 dispatches. The Dominar did 659. It isnt even close.

P220 ex-showroom price: ~90k
Avenger 220 ex-showroom price: ~95k
FZ25 ex-showroom price: ~120k

Dominar ABS ex-showroom price: ~170k

In a price sensitive market like India, are you sure this is apples to apples comparison at all? In the same price segment, Dominar was doing 1k+ till last month, that's more than all other competent bikes in the segment.

As for the recent slump in numbers, could that be because of end-of-year, or the rumours about the new updated dominar being around the corner? Well, your guess is as good as mine.

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Obviously the Dominar's big target was the Classic 350. But Royal Enfield dispatched more than twice as many Classic 350s per day (1538) than what Bajaj did with the Dominar for the month (659).

I believe its safe to say that the Dominar is not doing fine in terms of sales.

So on one side you acknowledge that Dominar has to target the Enfield sales (not the loyals, but the value seekers, who didn't know of an option before) for it to drive better volumes, especially since it's in the same price segment, and apparently offering much better value for money. And yet, you seem to be distraught with Bajaj's marketing campaign for taking a shot at it. Aren't you contradicting yourself?

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

But what about the rest of us who have been following the Dominar from before that? What did the bike stand for now that the ad was released? Is it about night riding? Or hyper touring? Or about being better than RE and Bajaj Avengers? There hasnt been any consistency and thats where the positioning has been flawed.

For someone who is seeking value for his money, and has budget in this price segment, it doesn't matter whether Dominar is hyper-riding, hyper-touring, super-night-touring and all those permutations and combinations. All that matters is - how it fares with other bikes in his/her budget - i.e. primarily the enfields. That's what the ad campaign tried to address.

And by the way, being an Avenger 220 owner myself, I can declare myself that Dominar is hands down better than Avenger on all fronts. It has FI, it has ABS, it handles better, it has wayyy more power: all of which I would be seeking while looking for an upgrade. It costs almost double after all, for all those features. Why would any Avenger owner take offence at it, is beyond me. The logic sounds as contrived as it could get. In fact sounds more like a weak attempt at turning it into an Avenger vs Dominar, instead of Enfield vs Dominar. It was always the later, and never the former.

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Me too. If it translates into better sales that is .

Who knows what it would be without the ad campaign? Mojo sure didn't have a similar ad campaign, where is it now? RR310 didn't it's still trying to pickup. Dukes didn't, they have been sub 1K for sometime now? We all can just guess what it would be for Dominar.

I would like to say 'kudos!' to Bajaj for at least trying to boldly disrupt the sentimental price segment.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

FZ25 the number 1 choice in the segment. Back to numbers, the FZ25 did 2340 dispatches.

Even though - as a product - Dominar was much more competent and better positioned for the Indian market needs IMO.

[rbp]

I did get a chance to ride the Dominor on the highway once, for the segment Bajaj was targeting [CL350], they chose the wrong engine [D390 engine], that engine has no low end punch at all, most of the RE[CL350] guys who test rode the bike had only one thing to complain, where is the low end pull? The numbers are good on paper for the Dominor but it just doesn't show up well on road. I feel they should have built an engine based on the Bajaj's own V15 engine, which has lots of low end torque, a 350CC variant of it would have been superb.
Apart from the engine, their marketing was all wrong for the product.

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by Sebring

Pardon me but are Dominar and Enfield bikes in the same class?

They are targetting the same price segment though their respective strengths are very different. Thats why Bajaj should have sold the Dominar on what it did well rather than saying what the competition did poorly.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Even though - as a product - Dominar was much more competent and better positioned for the Indian market needs IMO.

100%. All the built up good will for the CS400 has been unfortunately lost. Im actually very surprised by the success of the FZ25, I thought they would do around 250 units a month since it wasnt really an exceptional product. Good, yes.

Originally Posted by ghatotkatch

In a price sensitive market like India, are you sure this is apples to apples comparison at all? In the same price segment, Dominar was doing 1k+ till last month, that's more than all other competent bikes in the segment.

As for the recent slump in numbers, could that be because of end-of-year, or the rumours about the new updated dominar being around the corner? Well, your guess is as good as mine.

The other bike manufacturers arent really slowing down all that much with the end of year time frame. A revised dominar explanation makes sense, maybe an adventure touring version? I see a lot of Dominar owners have equipped their bikes with extended windscreens etc.


Back to the main point, I doubt Rajiv Bajaj told his engineering team, guys with the Bajaj Dominar / CS400, we want to be #1 in the competent bikes segment above Rs 1 lac

Originally Posted by ghatotkatch

So on one side you acknowledge that Dominar has to target the Enfield sales (not the loyals, but the value seekers, who didn't know of an option before) for it to drive better volumes, especially since it's in the same price segment, and apparently offering much better value for money. And yet, you seem to be distraught with Bajaj's marketing campaign for taking a shot at it. Aren't you contradicting yourself?

Please read my posts in their entirety for full context. The Dominar deserves to sell better. But Bajaj have done themselves no favours by flip flopping so early in the product's life cycle with all these mixed messages. The Dominar is not a me too product that could be easily replaced by a RE Classic 350 with no real difference to the buyer. It has enough of its own strengths that Bajaj should have identified and used for its marketing from day 1 consistently. By playing to its strengths, they could have really eaten away at Royal Enfield's sales instead of praying for the breadcrumbs that it currently get in sales.

Originally Posted by ghatotkatch

And by the way, being an Avenger 220 owner myself, I can declare myself that Dominar is hands down better than Avenger on all fronts. It has FI, it has ABS, it handles better, it has wayyy more power: all of which I would be seeking while looking for an upgrade. It costs almost double after all, for all those features. Why would any Avenger owner take offence at it, is beyond me. The logic sounds as contrived as it could get. In fact sounds more like a weak attempt at turning it into an Avenger vs Dominar, instead of Enfield vs Dominar. It was always the later, and never the former.

You are the first owner of a Indian motorcycle or car owner I have met who is fine with the same company taking a shot at them with another superior product offering . I for one would be offended if I paid ~ Rs 95K ex showroom for any product and then saw an ad from the same company making fun of me. Or maybe that's just me.

[rbp]

Originally Posted by ghatotkatch

So what's important on the highway? Low-end, mid-range or top-end? How much touring does one do where outright low-end is absolutely essential?

If you ask me, I would prefer good low end and mid range. By the way, I don't ride a RE.

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by ghatotkatch

I am sure he wanted to be number one, who doesn't? But that explains the marketing campaign, doesn't it? Back to the main point.

Well we are on a thread discussing sales (technically dispatches but close enough) so the main point that we are discussing here is numbers. Now nobody is saying that as a product the Dominar is shoddy. But the numbers also prove that the Dominar has unfortunately been a flop. Rajiv Bajaj is on record saying they wanted to be at 10,000 units a month within one year of launch (https://www.livemint.com/Companies/c...jiv-Bajaj.html ). If we keep that as a benchmark and compare to current performance of 1,371 units a month on an average this year, the true story emerges. Thats less than 15% of their likely target. Sure, they are doing better than the non Royal Enfields but that doesnt mean that they are doing fine (which is what you have posted).

Originally Posted by ghatotkatch

And I don't have any problem with it. Your money, your choice, your bike, your rage. But let's not twist this into discrediting the ad campaign itself - is all I am saying. You are killing the messenger.

It has been proven time and again that for a new business, the lowest cost of acquisition of a new customer is through repeat customers. Thats why companies want you to upgrade within their portfolio. Look at Maruti. You start with the 800 / Alto, upgrade to the Swift and then upgrade to the Ciaz. Same with KTMs, start with the 200 and work you way up to the 390 and / or the upcoming 790. Same with Royal Enfield and the 650 twins. You dont see any of them taking a tongue in cheek dig at buyers of their own products. It might be difficult to convince customers (not you, Im talking about others who might take offence to the ad after buying an Avenger) to upgrade within the family if you make fun of them after they have spent their hard earned money buying a lower priced offering.

[SoumenD]

I guess this is the first time the Jupiter crossed 1L mark.
Ntorq too seems to be gaining traction slowly, am expecting it to break into top 20 next month. I see lots of them in Bangalore these days. TVS sure has made some good strides in the gearless scooter segment.

Would be interesting to see how Jawa plan pans out for Mahindra. They do look promising. I mean that's the closest competitior I can see currently to the omnipresent RE 350s.

[jpcoolguy]

Thanks Crazy Driver for doing this analysis now on consistent basis. Hoping to see this every month in future.

Few observations from my side -

- Pulsar 150 has gained traction in the last 2 months which was almost beaten by RE CL350 few months back. These 60K+ levels are last seen 2011-2013 periods.
- Good 2 months for FZ series too, which has broken the 20K mark and also the highest month in a long time - the last time it was sold more was way back in Sep 2014 with 26,037 units.
- Hornet and X-Blade combined to sell only 12,484 units which was comfortably achieved by Hornet alone last year. Did Honda diluted Hornet by launching X-Blade?
- RE CL350 seems to have settled around 45K-50K levels after selling over 50K for few months at the start of this year.
- Thunderbird 350 class have picked up steam in the last 4-5 months after the launch of 350X series, however it is exactly opposite in case of 500 class.
- Also, the Classic 500 series used to sell more than 2500 units earlier and has fallen to less than 2K units in the last 3 months.
- FZ25 hits a high this year while Dominar hits the lifetime low (barring the launch month of Dec '16) and Himalayan sales are in the upward trend. Apache RR310, CBR 250R, Duke 390 & 250 are trundling along with average volumes.
- Pulsar 220 almost close to 10K and hits the high for this year, while Avenger 220 has taken a nosedive after the new facelift this year - the launch of Avenger 180 is also clearly not helping. And with Intruder selling less than 1000 units in the last 4 months, where are those buyers of this cruiser genre gone?
- Jawa launch may not have an impact RE Classic series, but definitely UML will be dead, if not already, with their overpriced bikes.
- Duke 200 has crossed the 3K units for the first time and hits the lifetime high this month whose sales have been uptick in the last few months.
- R15 is really flying high in the last few months after the launch of V3.0, which once was selling just 3K units and is now consistently seeing above 10K levels. It has sold more than the cheaper bikes like Hornet, X-Blade and Gixxer.
- Seems Xtreme 200 off to a good start with the sales gathered momemtum after the launch and is growing ever since.
- Shine has sold more than the cheaper Passion series and even the Hero's own Glamour series are close to Passion numbers. The 125cc segment is truly increasing and may become the new 100cc segment.
- CT 100 has soared sky high ever since the price reduction and the sales to be increasing by every passing month and nearing the lakh mark. Platina too suddenly picked up steam in the last 2 months and both along with Pulsar series have pushed Bajaj sales higher.
- Jupiter has crossed the lakh mark for the first time since launch and is seriously becoming a contender to the top placed Activa. The ride quality and the plastic quality of Jupiter is really top notch compared to Activa.
- Ntorq has beaten Grazia and the sales of both are exactly in the opposite direction - Ntorq is going higher and higher and Grazia has fallen lower and lower. The launch of Burgman Street has only made the life of Grazia misery with the former too beating the latter. Not sure what will be the impact of the new launch in the segment - Hero Destini.
- Vespa volumes are increasing and has hit a high of more than 6K units for the first time and Piaggio must be happy to see SR 150 too gaining momentum again.