[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

I have a versys, and though potent as a highway milemuncher, i would be damned riding it every day in a place like ooty or kodaikanal even. Even bangalore and its traffic does cut it for me. And forget serious offroad... Every metre is a heart in the mouth moment. Trail riding yes, fun no.

The question here is whether the problem lies with the motorcycle or you.

Do go through the following video, was randomly video surfing when I stumbled on this and it immediately brought your post to mind;

Common Myths: Front Braking & Big vs Small Bikes

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

Do go through the following video, was randomly video surfing when I stumbled on this and it immediately brought your post to mind

Excellent points. I had seen this video when it came out, i follow mototrek.

So lets point out a few things:

1. Your skills
2. Where do you like riding to
3. Where do you live (surrounding every day environment)
4. What is your daily/regular use case (office commute/weekends/long tours/2 up)
5. And finally what is available in the market for what price point.

I will try to answer your first question. Is the problem with me or the motorcycle?

The problem is me. Not the motorcycle. Someone with the right skills can make this or any motorcycle do anything. It has been proven time and again.

In a subsequent post, once the mods hopefully move this as a separate discussion, i will try to answer my own questions.

[GTO]

As requested, posts moved to a new thread . Let the discussion begin!

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by GTO

Let the discussion begin!

War, you mean! aswinprakas and Red Liner teaming up, no big bike owner stands a chance.

I'm just going to watch this debate from the sidelines mostly. Given the opportunity - I'd have liked to own a BIG and a SMALL bike.

I love the Versys 650 for the opportunities it brought into my life - I've been able to squeeze the maximum riding out of just 1/4th of my weekend, not to just have breakfasts, but to ride out far, averaging 500 - 1000 kms nonstop whenever possible and be back home before the wife can claim that the weekend is spoiled for her. Could I have done similar distances on a smaller bike? Yes, of course - but may not be in as much comfort and as less time - and that makes a HUGE difference under the present situations for 'me'.

Do i miss a smaller bike? At times yes, especially within the city limits - a Duke would have been a cracker of a machine to have for the city, and use for highways when I know I would be riding to a tricky destination. But then, my city usage is extremely less that it doesn't make any sense to get one more motorcycle either. I'm neither an adventure tourer per se, nor an offroad champion - So don't miss having a smaller bike for those situations - But yes, Might get one after a few years just to find out what the fun is all about! Need something small, light and cheap so as to throw around without adding to the credit card dues!

PS - I explore nearby trails on the scooter. Far easier and no ones cares wherever it goes!

[Ironhide]

My vote would go to a smaller (& hence presumably lighter) touring bike any given day. Though with a lighter bike a problem I can think of is the smaller capacity engine which does not have the power to overtake easily on highway speeds.(That too can be remedied with a Duke 390). Other than that, a smaller, lighter weight bike is any given day more preferable when one is doing day long hauls spread over multiple days.

A large, heavy bike is more difficult to manoeuvre, guzzles more fuel(& hence is not so friendly to the pocket/environment too) & causes more wear and tear to its running components adding to your repair/maintenance ticket. A smaller/lighter bike, well, it does none of the above.

Just my two cents.

Cheers !

[aargee]

For most bikers, whether we have money or not, something like below list remains a dream & reality for some...

1. C250R/KTM/Ninja 300 sort of fast bike within the city or ride from this end to other & office as well
2. A Hayabusa for office party/event
3. Access 125 type of scooters for weekend groceries or acting porter while Wife shops
4. SR150 to drop & pickup kids from school
5. S1000RR or FZ1 type of motorcycle for that weekend breakfast rides
6. V650 sort of motorcycle for that solo ride from South to North or NE
7. After few months, one evening in Spring, ride out that RD350 out to a mall where you go to meet some old friends & talk of old times
8. Rx100 to show bikers who come home that I'm part of the clan too

What I've realized is, most bikers can never be satisfied with one motorcycle even if they love the one they own. We relate an incident to a motorcycle & ride to match, something like ladies wearing a matching colors & dress for an occasion.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Excellent points. I had seen this video when it came out, i follow mototrek.

A wonderful source of information indeed, a relief from the usual baseless hoopla you see on the internet courtesy of someplace having received the benefit of cheap internet.

The problem is me. Not the motorcycle. Someone with the right skills can make this or any motorcycle do anything. It has been proven time and again.

I would not quite come to the same conclusion.

Reason being if you were given a smaller motorcycle in comparison to your Versys, say a Himalayan or an Impulse or even a Splendor and you manage to clock a better average running time then for me without a doubt the problem lies with your motorcycle or to be more specific your selection of motorcycles.

That is just the way it is and would be more obvious if you ride motorcycles from polar ends while keeping a data log.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

War, you mean! aswinprakas and Red Liner teaming up, no big bike owner stands a chance.

LOL! A war that has no end just like all controversial motorcycle based discussions

I'm not a motorcycle racist, but the following are my thoughts,

We've been brainwashed by big brands when it comes to realizing what the motorcycling culture or rather lifestyle is all about. The motorcycle is merely the means to the end and not the end itself.

Same goes for our perception of what Touring is. Though we picture open highways and riding into the sunset, that is not the case with India, where even if you have an express way in place your average riding time from A to B would still remain the same as that of a sub 100cc motorcycle provided there is some serious miles to cover between the the two points.

Exception to this case being those darn riders who seldom pull long hauls and are unfazed by the elements that affect frequent fliers. Reason I say this is because there were times when I've covered 800 km's in 8~9 hours(first couple of runs after getting the P220), but at this point of my life having experienced a fair bit of what the Indian highways can throw at an unsuspecting motorcyclist, I dare not attempt anything of that sort as the same does not make sense logically, be it as far as time, money or excitement goes.

Also on several rides I'd experienced more experienced motorcyclists on more potent multicylinders fall way behind, in one instance as far as 7 hours from us while they were doing close to zen speeds and tackling corners just as aggressively when we were merely doing city/highway limit speeds and filtering through.

Another instance I remember was while returning from Ooty on my TVS Wego, I started 30 mins before the pack who were on 2 Ninja 250R's and a Himalayan, I reached Kochi before the clock struck Noon whereas they crossed Kochi only by evening, and these are not just dudes who hit midlife crisis and decided to go Green, these are people with track experience and lakhs of km's under their belt.

So what was the cause?

Well given our riding conditions though the average speeds remain more or less similar the not so obvious factor is fatigue, on bigger motorcycles though you get to maintain higher speeds on the highways the fatigue that comes with it is just as high when compared to that felt when riding a smaller motorcycle, every break becomes longer and eventually you just end us drained.

Now going by numbers, if you do a steady 100 kmph average for a while you do get to cover more distance but you'd require a break to cool off, and as any of the frequent fliers would know, the more number of breaks you take the wearier and slower you'd be which would reflect in your overall time.

And we're still talking about sub 500cc motorcycles which are universally considered to be small motorcycles.

So to sum it up, say I'd be touring 800 km's a day maintaining a decent pace for a week or two, then the average time taken daily would more or less be the same in the event that I ride a big or small motorcycle, which would by estimate be around 15 hours.

So would it make sense for me to spend twice or thrice the amount of money on fuel, go through twice or thrice the level of strain, all the while being bothered about the nitty-gritties of big bike ownership?

Well, certainly not if you ask me.

Now if I were to be riding in a different country, say one where the speedo shows imperial units, then I'd be glad to scrap my Bajaj Boxer and hop on a BMW Boxer!

(For those who didn't get the Pun, Bajaj makes a 100cc motorcycle named 'Boxer' whereas the universal tourer from BMW the GS1200 has a 'Boxer' configuration motor)

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

So would it make sense for me to spend twice or thrice the amount of money on fuel, go through twice or thrice the level of strain, all the while being bothered about the nitty-gritties of big bike ownership?

Well, certainly not if you ask me.

Have you ever experienced a bigger capacity motorcycle over an extended period of time (say a few months) before coming to these conclusions? All your points, though absolutely valid, come from what someone else did or how they rode in comparison with you. Everyone is different, every machine is different, and it is unfair to readers to put out generic conclusions such as these without your own delving into it.

Why don't you rent a well maintained big capacity (650 and above jap or euro) touring bike (no nitty gritties to worry about), get out for a week (yes a week to experience it fully) to the mountains and post your real ride experience here unreservedly? If you don't have the money, i recommend you start saving up, it will be a wonderful experience to spend some coin on at your age. Go alone, and spend time with the bike.

That would make for a better discussion, because a lot of automobiles are bought and used not from a financial perspective alone, but also from a relationship you begin to build with your car or motorcycle.

Ps: If you think a motorcycle is just a tool, have you read zen and the art of cycle maintenance?

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Have you ever experienced a bigger capacity motorcycle over an extended period of time (say a few months) before coming to these conclusions? All your points, though absolutely valid, come from what someone else did or how they rode in comparison with you. Everyone is different, every machine is different, and it is unfair to readers to put out generic conclusions such as these without your own delving into it.

Well since bigger is a relative term I was referring to the sub-quarter liters which from my long-term experience is the P220 and ZMA, which still doesn't make sense compared to the smaller motorcycles I've owned.

Now I know it doesn't make any sense for me to talk the talk without walking the walk as far as international 'big' motorcycles go, but when considering international standards a minuscule jump from 100 to 200+ doesn't make sense for me I doubt I'd ever consider experimenting with anything bigger i.e unless either better infrastructure or some form of existential crisis knocks on the door.

Why don't you rent a well maintained big capacity (650 and above jap or euro) touring bike (no nitty gritties to worry about), get out for a week (yes a week to experience it fully) to the mountains and post your real ride experience here unreservedly? If you don't have the money, i recommend you start saving up, it will be a wonderful experience to spend some coin on at your age. Go alone, and spend time with the bike.

This is a problem for me, I only ride motorcycles that I personally(wrench-in-hand) maintain, hence have even politely refused all expense paid offers to transport motorcycles between Kerala~Bangalore while I was in College, as it seemed like a colossal waste of my life, riding someone else's machine that I have no clue about for miles at end deriving no pleasure from the experience all the while thinking of what could go wrong.

The only motorcycles I've ridden otherwise are those of fellow enthusiasts who've urged me to take a ride to give them my perspective of how the motorcycle runs, with the exception of a big Gixxer in a parking lot while I was in for an exchange program, did have the urge to take it on the road but stopped as logic prevailed.

But since thinking doesn't involve financial commitment and money in long term investments remain out of my reach I do consider the possibility of owning the big potato someday, though strictly for short runs to the groceries and to maintain a social image of prosperity considering the eventual but unavoidable hitch!

But then the Quote happened! So I'm doubtful whether I'd have the willfulness to not make impulsive decisions! As the prospect of a trivial motorcycle that can be ridden in the rain and can be slept in without a care in the world has been eluding my thoughts for a while now. Just saying.

That would make for a better discussion, because a lot of automobiles are bought and used not from a financial perspective alone, but also from a relationship you begin to build with your car or motorcycle.

Ps: If you think a motorcycle is just a tool, have you read zen and the art of cycle maintenance?

True, but as far as relationships with motorcycles go, there is the kind of relationship that Phaedrus has with his motorcycle and the kind that John has with his.

Though I admire the former I equally despise the latter and worry myself with the possibility that I'd inadvertently be like John once I go for a motorcycle that is.. well.. too advanced for my grasp.

Which if you come to think of it is the usual scene as far as Superbike Ownerships in India goes, the number of low mileage options for sale in the classifieds is a testament to this I believe.

[octane1002]

A noob question here from someone who has been a car guy all his life. I did own a P220 somewhere in between but never went beyond it.

As far as fatigue from riding bigger bikes on highways is concerned..shouldn't it be the other way round?Smaller capacity engines (upto 250 cc ) being more cumbersome to ride as compared to say a D390 or say a Versys 650?

The amount of effort required to plan overtakes in an (relatively)underpowered bike and (average) braking being large contributers to fatigue.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by octane1002

A noob question here from someone who has been a car guy all his life. I did own a P220 somewhere in between but never went beyond it.

As far as fatigue from riding bigger bikes on highways is concerned..shouldn't it be the other way round?Smaller capacity engines (upto 250 cc ) being more cumbersome to ride as compared to say a D390 or say a Versys 650?

The amount of effort required to plan overtakes in an (relatively)underpowered bike and (average) braking being large contributers to fatigue.

If you're facing difficulty overtaking then either the vehicle in front of you is faster than you are which defeats the purpose of an overtake.

Or you're not doing it right, because when in the power-band be it a CT100B or a Omini you'd pull through just fine.

From my observation I find that most people are hesitant to rev their engines resulting in sloppy overtakes which are dangerous as I believe an overtake should be done with surgical precision, swift and accurate.

But while riding in a group displacement is a determinant factor when it comes to keeping pace while overtaking, my opinion is to stick to ones own pace in the interest of safety.

Here's a quote from my travelogue on overtaking, I was on my CT100B and my co-rider(A.S) was on his Dominar:

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

A few minutes on the highway and I noticed that the traffic was considerably more as a result of which we had to change our riding style due to displacement being a determinant factor in our respective overtaking styles, as the saying goes “There is no replacement for displacement”. While A.S was taking it easy, I was not able to keep pace as I needed more time to pull through, to make up for this I decided to target the corners, while the traffic slowed down for each corner I accelerated overtaking considerable traffic and made sure I was safely within my lane way before the apex due to most riders/drivers coming the other way overtaking at corners at excessive speeds resulting in them having to come onto our lane.

A short while later I was considerably ahead and had to stop for the Dominar to catch up, rather than stopping at the narrow section I decided to stop at Adimali and refuel while A.S caught up, and once he did he filled up the Dominar as well so that we would not have to break until fatigue called for it.

[nkrishnap]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Have you ever experienced a bigger capacity motorcycle over an extended period of time (say a few months) before coming to these conclusions? All your points, though absolutely valid, come from what someone else did or how they rode in comparison with you. Everyone is different, every machine is different, and it is unfair to readers to put out generic conclusions such as these without your own delving into it.

Statement is very valid. Example? Initially I was very nervous when I saw the Tiger 800, but a good hour spent with it meant it was lot less stressful with every minute riding it. It is nimble and has enough power to sneak ahead even in the traffic condition, highways would be blissful.

PS: hiring one soon to get a hang of the big bike stuff.

[Sankar]

Get the biggest bike one can physically handle with ease and have the skills for if there is only one motorcycle that he can buy for both touring and riding to work in traffic.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

PS: hiring one soon to get a hang of the big bike stuff.

Forget the 800 KP, get the 900. Way more nimbler than its predecessor! The lower seat height and the seating position in the bike, rather than on it, feels much more confidence inspiring.

[//M]

This is indeed war !

Frankly speaking, the right motorcycle doesn't exists.

I ride my Tiger 800 to the mountains, to places far off to enjoy long highway rides, to the workplace and once in a while to some trails as well. It is a supremely versatile motorcycle which manages everything in its stride. Although I am now used to the size and weight of the motorcycle, I still feel this kind of versatility on a lighter motorcycle would have been ideal. Plus the heat is felt in urban riding conditions. I test rode the Interceptor 650 the other day and I feel this can really compliment the Tiger 800 well for urban commuting. If only I had the resources to buy and maintain two motorcycles !

I recently rode a RE Himalayan for around 10 days in western Arunachal Pradesh. The motorcycle was extremely fun in the narrow mountain roads and the offroad sections, but it totally fizzled out once we were back in the plains. The top-end is almost non-existent.

So I guess both the segments have their own pros and cons, what we need is a product that bridges these two segments. The KLR650 exactly does that and that is the reason it is such a popular choice for overlanders.

However, we can only hope to get the RE Himalayan 650 or KTM Duke 790 Adv soon.