[neil.jericho]

That was a very good review from Fort 9 but there are two subjects that do stand out for the manner in which they were dealt with in the video. A part of me suspects that the video, while otherwise heavy on rock solid content and fantastic in production value, fell for the old wrestler adage - never let the truth get in the way of a good story. Now Im not suggesting that the Fort 9 channel is deliberately misleading anyone but on the two issues below they certainly could have done a better job of presenting the facts on the table.

1. Forgetting that the motorcycle is an A2 offering
Ryan does mention that the power is from the 1960s and so on but he neglects to mention the most important factor - this is a motorcycle designed to meet A2 norms and hence has a horsepower restriction. This wasnt designed to exceed A2 level norms and then get restricted for certain markets, this was designed to meet A2 level norms. Just like the KTM Duke 390 and the Yamaha R3 and so many other A2 level machines. The fact that it is engineered to A2 level norms, coupled with it's Indian manufacturing costs, enables Royal Enfield to price it at an incredible VFM point.

If I were to give a car analogy, this would be the equivalent of a car reviewer testing a sub 4 meter hatchback that meets the Indian small car regulations and then cricitizing the car by saying, "Oh the space is quite less, why couldnt the company make this car bigger instead?".

You cant have your cake and eat it too.

2. Giving Sid Lal a little too much credit
While laying out how Sid Lal has helped turn around the fortunes of the company, the review does make it appear as though the mis-steps in the engineering side, including the infamous Himalayan flying footrest-gate scandal (we have forgotten about this since the even bigger chassis-gate can of worms has easily eclipsed it) all happened before Sid Lal came in and righted the old wrongs. Not true, Sid was very much there in Royal Enfield at that time.

This shouldnt sully what is an otherwise very nicely directed and fair review by a channel that is known for its hard hitting and balanced reviews. I personally do enjoy Fort 9 videos. That said, it is easy to get carried away with the "Oh, Ryan mentioned that the GT650 is underpowered, so it must be" mindset and take it for the gospel truth.

[Motard_Blr]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

...

1. Forgetting that the motorcycle is an A2 offering
...

Canada, where Fort 9 is based, and the USA, do not have a graduated licensing regulations like Europe. So the A2 regulations are irrelevant to North America. This leads to the question, why has RE not taken advantage of this to sell higher power models in such countries? The demand is definitely exists. KTM and others do that in Europe.

B]2. Giving Sid Lal a little too much credit [/b]
While laying out how Sid Lal has helped turn around the fortunes of the company, the review does make it appear as though the mis-steps in the engineering side, including the infamous Himalayan flying footrest-gate scandal (we have forgotten about this since the even bigger chassis-gate can of worms has easily eclipsed it) all happened before Sid Lal came in and righted the old wrongs. Not true, Sid was very much there in Royal Enfield at that time.

Not withstanding the mistakes, known and unknown to the public, it often takes a strong leader, such as Sid Lal, to lead the company in the direction that it is currently in. Maybe the mistakes could be attributed to impatience and inexperience. But today RE is the best position ever in its history. This is not to say that he is "The Great Leader" but I think that credit must be given where it's due.

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by Motard_Blr

Canada, where Fort 9 is based, and the USA, do not have a graduated licensing regulations like Europe. So the A2 regulations are irrelevant to North America. This leads to the question, why has RE not taken advantage of this to sell higher power models in such countries? The demand is definitely exists. KTM and others do that in Europe.

Royal Enfield is not chasing the bigger capacity markets that anyway are facing dwindling sales.

There is a huge vacant spot in the mid- size modern classic type of motorcycles, and most of the European and American motorcycle manufacturers have moved to bigger motorcycles since they prefer to make low volume and earn high margins. On the contrary, we are going after scale.

So the market there usually starts at 850cc, and we are coming at a notch below at 650cc but it has similar attributes. So we have a home market, which is giant in terms of scale, and it gives us the right cost structure and we also price our products to get the scale. And with lower cost structures then we can get some cracking (read, extremely competitive) prices for the international markets.

Customers are delighted about our prices in US, UK and Europe. To establish the brand, we have expanded our distribution network a lot and are giving a lot of support and service even beyond the distribution network. It’s a long-term strategy. It took us almost 15-20 years in India to get to this point and may be in the next couple of decades, we can get the same success in other markets.

Source.

Also, KTM doesnt have a non A2 level Duke 390. Neither does Yamaha have a non A2 level R3. They have other bigger capacity motorcycles that do not fit the A2 level regulations but those come at much higher prices. In the end its about getting a well engineered motorcycle at a competitive and affordable price. If you go through the feedback and comments from international buyers of the 650 twins, you will actually see that many of them strongly favour Royal Enfield's decision to give motorcyclists a well priced, no nonsense motorcycle that doesnt cost an arm and a leg to buy and run. New motorcycles are getting increasingly expensive abroad and often viewed as impractical (depending on which country you are in). The 650 twins come as a breath of fresh air in such times.

Hence my earlier point about not having your cake and eating it too.

Not withstanding the mistakes, known and unknown to the public, it often takes a strong leader, such as Sid Lal, to lead the company in the direction that it is currently in. Maybe the mistakes could be attributed to impatience and inexperience. But today RE is the best position ever in its history. This is not to say that he is "The Great Leader" but I think that credit must be given where it's due.

I do not mean to play down the immense contributions of Sid Lal in turning around the company from what it was. In fact, I strongly believe that Sid has not received the recognition that he should and that in due course of time, motorcycle historians will look back extremely favourably on his contributions to the Indian and now, global motorcycling industry. But that said, mistakes such as rushing the BS3 Himalayan through the manufacturing and design cycle did happen under his watch and not as portrayed in the Fort 9 video.

[ashishk29]

First off, that review was amazing. The format, the way he covers the important bits, perfect. The A2 restriction makes sense considering that the engine (I believe) was developed in the UK.


On a slightly different note, got 2 mods done now.
1. The X grip mobile holder with the U clamp. That tiny bit of metal felt a bit too insecure for my mind. Works pretty well. Have done about 30-40km since installing it, and on varying kinds of roads. Holds up well. Bought on Amazon for 1200 bucks. Fit it at home.

2. Got the seat restructured at Nana Peth. He did a great job. There's a small bump just behind the riders position, to kinda keep you in place while accelerating hard. The overall seat height has gone up, more for the pillion than the rider. The material on the outside is not plain, but has kinda that anti-slip texture. Decent grip. Overall, pretty satisfied with the job. 2600 bucks for the seat.


Pictures:

[yesyeswe]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

This shouldnt sully what is an otherwise very nicely directed and fair review by a channel that is known for its hard hitting and balanced reviews. I personally do enjoy Fort 9 videos. That said, it is easy to get carried away with the "Oh, Ryan mentioned that the GT650 is underpowered, so it must be" mindset and take it for the gospel truth.

Moreover reviewers should consider the price point as well, you can't compare the performance of a bike with a bike which sells for twice or thrice of its price. The difference between a reviewer and a common person is that, the reviewer might feel 47 bhp inadequate as he/she is constantly riding bikes with a lot of power, but to a first time user or a person upgrading from a lower segment, the 650 twins will feel more than adequate.

[timuseravan]

Originally Posted by ashishk29

2. Got the seat restructured at Nana Peth. He did a great job. There's a small bump just behind the riders position, to kinda keep you in place while accelerating hard. The overall seat height has gone up, more for the pillion than the . The material on the outside is not plain, but has kinda that anti-slip texture. Decent grip. Overall, pretty satisfied with the job. 2600 bucks for the seat.

The seat is looking good. Which shop did you get it from? Can you send me the contact?
I am getting my bike next week

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by timuseravan

The seat is looking good. Which shop did you get it from? Can you send me the contact?
I am getting my bike next week

Wow congrats dude. From the versys to vstrom to street triple and then to the interceptor. Desi wins i tell ya.

[ethanhunt123]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Source.

Also, KTM doesnt have a non A2 level Duke 390. Neither does Yamaha have a non A2 level R3. They have other bigger capacity motorcycles that do not fit the A2 level regulations but those come at much higher prices. In the end its about getting a well engineered motorcycle at a competitive and affordable price. If you go through the feedback and comments from international buyers of the 650 twins, you will actually see that many of them strongly favour Royal Enfield's decision to give motorcyclists a well priced, no nonsense motorcycle that doesnt cost an arm and a leg to buy and run. New motorcycles are getting increasingly expensive abroad and often viewed as impractical (depending on which country you are in). The 650 twins come as a breath of fresh air in such times.

Hence my earlier point about not having your cake and eating it too.

The article you sent doesnt talk about A2 restrictions anywhere. And both KTM 390 & R3 are around 300-400cc mark where developing more than 47hp would require a lot more engineering costs for sure. Fact remains that this is a 650cc air cooled engine which is underpowered compared to other engines of same capacity - maybe RE didnt want to push its luck too much since it was already a big deal for it to get 50% more power than any of its existing bike - but to say they did it purposely for A2 is stretching the facts a bit too far.

BTW its not so difficult to have a A2 restricted model - a lot of manufacturers do it specifically for Europe market - Z900 / Triumph classics etc. Non Europe would still be 60-70% of RE's target atleast - so its not that they couldnt have done it.

[timuseravan]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Wow congrats dude. From the versys to vstrom to street triple and then to the interceptor. Desi wins i tell ya.

Thanks and desi does win but i think you have confused me with someone else. I was not looking for any of the bikes you mention

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by ethanhunt123

The article you sent doesnt talk about A2 restrictions anywhere. And both KTM 390 & R3 are around 300-400cc mark where developing more than 47hp would require a lot more engineering costs for sure. Fact remains that this is a 650cc air cooled engine which is underpowered compared to other engines of same capacity - maybe RE didnt want to push its luck too much since it was already a big deal for it to get 50% more power than any of its existing bike - but to say they did it purposely for A2 is stretching the facts a bit too far.

Here is an article from Autocar India dated the 6th of November 2017 that answers all your questions.

The 650cc mark was the planned displacement from day one, so all the talk of 750cc or higher engines just turned out to be internet conjecture. Royal Enfield says that they wanted their new bikes to be aspiring, but also affordable and the 650cc capacity is at a sweet spot where it makes for a good upgrade from the 350 and 500 singles, but is not a step too far. Another advantage is that with this level of power, the engine slots under Europe’s learner legal A2 licence regulations, thus opening up the potential to tap into new riders as well.

Link.

Originally Posted by ethanhunt123

BTW its not so difficult to have a A2 restricted model - a lot of manufacturers do it specifically for Europe market - Z900 / Triumph classics etc. Non Europe would still be 60-70% of RE's target atleast - so its not that they couldnt have done it.

Nobody is denying that they could make a non A2 limited motorcycle. But they arent targeting that market. They obviously have done the market research to validate their business decision to stick to the A2 limited market. I have already shared the news link for the same. So has it been successful for Royal Enfield in export markets?

The Interceptor 650 has become the highest-selling bike in its category in the UK and is also among the top 10 best-selling bikes (all segments) list.

"We sold every motorcycle that landed across Europe and we have hundreds and hundreds of orders for the 650s yet to be fulfilled.

"The demand outstripped supply and we are sure that over the next few months we would have addressed them. The 650s generate 50 percent of Europe’s Royal Enfield sales. Himalayan is the next big seller in Europe,"

"Our capacity was intentionally increased to cope with our growing volumes in Europe and other international markets. In Europe, we have Royal Enfield operations in 21 countries and globally in about 52 countries. Europe alone has 450 dealers and growing,"

Sounds pretty successful to me. Link

Now if you or I have some different research that proves that there are greater volumes for Royal Enfield in the say 60 odd HP segment than the current A2 based numbers, then it is a different discussion. I dont have any data points that prove this to be the case. I will be interested to see if any forum members can share some details towards this.

Also, any source for the 60-70% geographic split of the target market for Royal Enfield? I am trying to find out how and where exports from Indian built motorcycles are sold across the world, so this would be most helpful for my research.

[nasirkaka]

SEAT-MOD UPDATE:
I had modified my interceptors seat a few months back at Raos. As they are super busy, its very difficult to get precisely what we want as its experimental & time-taking and time is something which they lack. The mod comprised of using the stock seat plate, adding a new and harder foam, adding more width than stock, shaping it and a custom cover. we saved the stock foam and cover, incase we need to restore to factory seat. The mod felt much better then stock seat, however, i felt that there was some scope to further improve it. Come monsoon, and there was water ingress into the seat foam through the stitching. as a make shift arrangement, i removed my seat and shrink-wrapped it all over (like what they do to suitcases at airports), to prevent water ingress. Something had to be done and most of yesterday was spent figuring a fix.

Issues i had identified after level 1 mod:
* Water ingress into the foam
* seat height had increased a bit, affecting ground reach a bit.

* seat edges were sharp all around
* seat was almost straight, like a bench
Yesterday, i removed the seat and the seat cover and got down to sanding and shaping the foam. Intent was to reduce the height, give a bit of contour for the rider, and make the edges rounded without affecting the overall width. And of course tape the stitching internally to protect water ingress. Did the required shaping (along with some scolding from wife for messing the balcony) and took it to neighborhood seat cover maker. We covered the entire seat with a 3mm foam with fabric on one side and put a cover over it without any stitching. Similar to modern bikes where the material is stretched over the seat and stapled behind. This would fix the water Ingres misuse. Used the old cover on top as i liked the ribbed look and it would also add to the cushioning apart from first layer of protection. Overall very happy with the result. Rode to office this morning and seat feels much better. Some pics from yesterday.

[ashishk29]

Originally Posted by timuseravan

The seat is looking good. Which shop did you get it from? Can you send me the contact?
I am getting my bike next week

It was Pawar seats in Nana Peth. It's right on the main road that connects timber market to pune station.
Did a good job. Very talkative guy It was a fun 2 hours spent.

Contact: 9834621171.


On a separate note: Has anyone tried out any custom crash guards? The Zana one looks pretty good. Any experiences?
Where did you get it fit?

[timuseravan]

Originally Posted by ashishk29

It was Pawar seats in Nana Peth. It's right on the main road that connects timber market to pune station.
Did a good job. Very talkative guy It was a fun 2 hours spent.

Contact: 9834621171.

Thanks! Pawar seats is very famous. I though it would be some other shop.

Originally Posted by ashishk29

On a separate note: Has anyone tried out any custom crash guards? The Zana one looks pretty good. Any experiences?
Where did you get it fit?

Also has anyone tried the RE touring seat? Any reviews?

[LazyGunner]

Originally Posted by nasirkaka

SEAT-MOD UPDATE:Come monsoon, and there was water ingress into the seat foam through the stitching. as a make shift arrangement, i removed my seat and shrink-wrapped it all over (like what they do to suitcases at airports), to prevent water ingress. Something had to be done and most of yesterday was spent figuring a fix.

Ah, nice work!! I see a Sunday well-spent there. I have the same issue with my seat. I guess I should do the same. I wasn't sure that the same cover could be re-used! I'll try it in coming days.

Also, need some help with the handlebar risers. My RD aftermarket handlebar is rusting in multiple places. Planning to get back to stock handle and use risers. Tried to send you a personal message but couldn't as your inbox was full.

[yesyeswe]

Pirelli has launched the phantom sportscomp in 150/80 R18 size, those of you who wanted a broader tyre for their 650s can opt for this tyre, it is available at speed monks performance center for 15000₹, shipping extra
Credits: abhinav
https://www.instagram.com/abhinavbhatt19/?hl=en