[pugram]

Originally Posted by hemanth.anand

Also the gear changing lever is gone making it symmetrical. I feel it's only a matter of time...people will get used to it.

I do agree that its only a matter of time for people who buy this bike. The muscle memory for clutch / gear combo + brake will work for few days / months before adapting. Eagerly awaiting Tork T6X for which I have pre-booked almost 2 years back .

I bought a Platina 110 4 gear bike with the all down gear pattern and the previous bike I had was a P180 with the 1 down and 4 up pattern. It's been 4 months now and few times I miss the first gear and slip into neutral.

My POV is based on this experience. I am sure most of us buying pure electric bikes at this point of time will have a backup IC bike at home. Now imagine riding these 2 alternatively. I wouldn't mind a missing lever in the handle bar but that's me.

[chandras1]

Two batteries and battery swap are, I believe, quite common in SE Asia. I guess the fact that the batteries can be detached and swapped (see http://22kymco.in/ride-with-us.html IONEX ) quickly will potentially address all range related constraints in a big city.

Wish Ather energy had thought about this.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by chandras1

Wish Ather energy had thought about this.

From what I understood after speaking to one of their employees, they did consider this. Don't remember the specifics from that conversation more than a year ago, but what came across was that they did their research and concluded that their present setup was more sustainable in the long run than a detachable battery setup.

[chandras1]

Originally Posted by am1m

From what I understood after speaking to one of their employees, they did consider this. Don't remember the specifics from that conversation more than a year ago, but what came across was that they did their research and concluded that their present setup was more sustainable in the long run than a detachable battery setup.

Hmm if it can be disclosed I would like to know more details. The main advantages of detachable battery as per me are

1. Unlike 4-wheelers, 2 wheeler batteries are portable and hence it easily be swapped.
2. Battery is not part of the upfront price you pay. So entry barrier to adoption comes down.
3. Leasing perhaps is the better way for batteries which degrade in performance over a period of time *and* is the single most expensive item in the vehicle to replace.
4. Range becomes a function of how many battery swap stations are available within reach and eliminates charging time altogether. A big boon for the vast majority of two wheeler users who spend many hours on the road.
5. Separates the vehicle developer from the battery maker and hence takes the standardization to the next level.

[payeng]

Originally Posted by am1m

... they (Ather) did their research and concluded that their present setup was more sustainable in the long run than a detachable battery setup.

I will be Very Interested to know more about their RESEARCH... Swap-able Battery sounds much more interesting and practical solution to me.

Imagine the horror of being in an emergency, your battery is about to die and you are searching around for "Charging Dock", realizing that you are in a country like India where finding a parking space is difficult (even in small towns).

Even if you manage to find one (charging dock), pray not to find a long queue ahead of you; then imagine waiting for at least 30 mins before you can take off.

[sreeharipv]

Battery swapping is unnecessary complexity and now you need to have swapping stations everywhere to make the vehicle work. Also, batteries need to be financed and monitored for abuse etc. And also current battery design will likely limit future vehicle design due to reverse compatibility requirements. Battery replacement isn't just adding a quick disconnect on the battery.

Here's how it's gonna work. There are millions of two wheeler users who never ride more than 30 km a day and can charge overnight at home. By the time that base is covered, we'll have models with 250 km range from all the tech evolution. Then there'll be that one guy who needs 300 km range everyday and can't charge at home; these companies probably don't care much about that one guy.

Anyone pursuing battery replacement is screwed sooner or later.

[hemanth.anand]

Originally Posted by chandras1

1. Unlike 4-wheelers, 2 wheeler batteries are portable and hence it easily be swapped.

I wouldn't want to haul that 15kilo battery to charge it in home/office. It's certainly not "portable"

Originally Posted by payeng

I will be Very Interested to know more about their RESEARCH... Swap-able Battery sounds much more interesting and practical solution to me.

Imagine the horror of being in an emergency, your battery is about to die and you are searching around for "Charging Dock", realizing that you are in a country like India where finding a parking space is difficult (even in small towns).

Even if you manage to find one (charging dock), pray not to find a long queue ahead of you; then imagine waiting for at least 30 mins before you can take off.

Comparing the 450 and the RV400 is not very apt IMO. Simply because one is a scooter and the other is a Motorbike.
A Scooter is hardly taken out for long distances by owners and hardly used for more than 80kms a day. Removable battery will need more space in packaging too (which is why we don't get removable batteries on phone these days). For a scooter that is inside the city most of the times, the range anxiety is misplaced IMO. I've not used the public charging till today in the last 3+ months of Ather ownership. I've ridden it for 2000 kms overall and whenever I take it, I use it for 40-50kms a day.
Battery swapping may be more useful for Cars or motorbikes which will/can be used for longer distances.

[payeng]

Originally Posted by sreeharipv

Battery swapping is unnecessary complexity and now you need to have swapping stations everywhere to make the vehicle work.

Originally Posted by hemanth.anand

I wouldn't want to haul that 15kilo battery to charge it in home/office. It's certainly not "portable"

A Scooter is hardly taken out for long distances by owners and hardly used for more than 80kms a day.

Best of Luck then, I'll wait for word of mouth.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by chandras1

Hmm if it can be disclosed I would like to know more details.

Originally Posted by payeng

I will be Very Interested to know more about their RESEARCH...

Like I posted, don't recall the specifics of a one-off conversation I had about a year ago. What I remember was the impression that they had seriously thought about this option and decided against it. One point I do recall was about the weight of the battery and how it would be impractical in the long run for users to lug it inside for charging. For any more details, perhaps the question can be posted on the Ather forum.

Haven't bought an Ather or any e-bike yet, but I'm pretty convinced that my next commuter bike will be an electric. From whatever I've read and seen about Ather, they seem to have thought the entire 'support system' through and that gives me more confidence than a seller who may be just importing bikes and re-selling them here. Of course, I'm really hoping that the major players get into e-bikes into a big way and they become truly mass market when I'm ready to buy.

[vikramvicky1984]

Have they revealed their expansion plans in terms of outreach?
Are they planning to give out dealerships?
Look forward to an official team bhp report of the event
Given how Micromax disrupted mobiles based on the dual sim & long battery features, I have high expectations from them

[chandras1]

Originally Posted by sreeharipv

Anyone pursuing battery replacement is screwed sooner or later.

How is this any different from going to a petrol station and fill petrol ? Or for that matter how is this any different from having charging stations like the Ather grid at vantage points all over the city? In fact a battery swapping station trumps a bike charging station big time in both the real estate requirements and the time taken per customer.

Irrespective of the improvement in battery technology, the need for a battery to be charged or replaced when someone is on the road is not going to go away. The capacity of a battery and thereby range is IMHO tangential to the need for an efficient solution when someone is on the road!

Yamaha EC-05 announced yesterday is using swappable batteries from Gogoro. Kymko too is moving towards the swappable option through their ionex.

Please watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W34k...ature=youtu.be

Compare this to taking your two wheeler, plugging into the charging dock and waiting for the charging to complete.

And for how successful Gogoro has been please read this:
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/biz/.../05/2003712811

Originally Posted by hemanth.anand

I wouldn't want to haul that 15kilo battery to charge it in home/office. It's certainly not "portable".

I was talking about swapping. Please see my other post. These batteries are less than 10kgs in weight per unit. Even if one is old/disabled to lift these, this is India and I am sure we will have attendants just like the ones we have in petrol stations to check air!

Range of 80 kms may be sufficient for a Home-to-office commute and back. Not for many other people, who literally zip around the city even in scooters.
Plus what if I am running a bike rental service? Also, irrespective of the range, people would want a quick and efficient turn around.

Space for a 16 battery station that Gogoro has vs space for 16 Athers to charge simultaneously at Bangalore? The former will trump the latter any day, especially in our super dense metro's.

[payeng]

Originally Posted by chandras1

Space for a 16 battery station that Gogoro has vs space for 16 Athers to charge simultaneously at Bangalore ? The former will trump the latter any day, especially in our super dense metro's.

Exactly my point. Charging stations specially in an over crowded country like India is absolutely impractical.

Not every one would have the luxury of Time and Patience to

1. Find a charging station
2. Wait for his turn to charge (in case of a queue ahead of him)
3. Wait for another half hour/one hour (at least) with his EV plugged in

[payeng]

Originally Posted by sreeharipv

Here's how it's gonna work. There are millions of two wheeler users who never ride more than 30 km a day and can charge overnight at home.

In a Perfect world, of course.

Personally I wouldn't touch a mobile phone if it ONLY had the option for an overnight charge.

[hemanth.anand]

Originally Posted by chandras1

I was talking about swapping.

For swapping yes, it's easier. Revolt is advertising charging the battery at office by taking the battery like a bag. I wouldn't want to do something like that.

In general you seem to have misunderstood my context...let me try to clarify. You and payeng replied to the post by am1m about Ather's reseach and why they didn't opt for interchangeable battery. From that Context, I wrote what Ather told everyone how they arrived at their decision of using a non-swappable battery pack (reasons like packaging and usage of a scooter).
And for their product, their decision is good enough IMO too. Of course it doesn't cover the minority of scooter owners who ride more than 100kms a day.

I will not say that swappable battery is not a good move at all. It may push for standardization (one battery design for all OEMs) in future. It'll help people with no parking space at home to charge overnight. It may also help people living in areas with bad electricity supply.

All said and done, like any other option, even this will come with it's own set of problems too. It's early days in electro-mobility and who knows, there may be some other better solution and which may be completely different to these two.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by hemanth.anand

It's early days in electro-mobility and who knows, there may be some other better solution and which may be completely different to these two.

I think that will be some fundamental advance in battery tech which will dramatically improve range, so charging will become a once in a week thing and a quicker thing like filling up at a fuel station! (Any EV engineers here? Is something like this possible, or is there some physical constraint to such a fundamental advance?)

If and when that happens, I guess there will be no need for detachable batteries. After all, you don't see anyone carry a petrol tank around (maybe bottles and jerry cans - perhaps going on a looong journey to a remote destination will warrant carrying a spare battery or two like carrying a 20ltr jerrycan of fuel today).

And perhaps all the space currently occupied by fuel pumps will be used for charging stations? Am just speculating here, no idea if any of this is feasible.

Originally Posted by payeng

Let our mobiles phones get that type of battery first

Haha, fair enough! But our phones did last for days...once, just those that supported only voice calls and SMS, before streaming, 24x7 wi-fi and the rest became indispensable in a smart phone. Might be a good analogy, right now EV tech is focusing on the bare bones commuter vehicle - guys who use the bike to get to work and back, the old Nokia phone equivalent.