[landcruiser123]

What would be the reaction if Mercedes Benz decides to take the Suzuki Swift head on in India with an equally priced small hatchback?
That's my reaction now.

I know that the motorcycle business is rapidly dying the USA and I understand Harley-Davidson's intentions to diversity the brand and try to stay afloat. I think HD should create an alternate brand to sell tourers and sport bikes.

[mh09ad5578]

Every manufacturer has done it and it was not big news. But anything Harley does and they are screwed! Why so much hate for them I fail to understand. They are bound to do anything to increase the market share and get new riders in. I see this as a good thing, they are trying new things to grow. And they need to try, this isn't a misjudged, reckless decision, remember this is a fight for their very survival. If they can't stop the slide in their sales, they'll very well shut shop. I think it's a good idea, if they can get a good product priced well they can get in customers who'll be tempted to upgrade to bigger Harley's, as well as spend more on Harley accessories, service and apparel. Harley is already selling tons of accessories and apparel made by others but branded by them, so why not an actual bike? Aren't they a motorcycle brand?

[howler]

Originally Posted by himanshugoswami

"how to kill your brand 101"- by Harley Davidson

Heck- to date on HOG rides the street 750 guys are treated as outcastes- anything under an 883 isn't seen as a real Harley. Would be amusing to see these puny ones join a HOG ride!

Im glad I sold off my Harley before this travesty hits the road. HOG patches just wont be the same anymore!!

That’s understandable. Any person who really likes riding won’t ride with the Harley lot either ways; so the ‘hogs’ are safe in their bubble.
It’s a pity some folks have this mentality , it’s the exact reason HD is in the situation they are in.

I look forward to see whether this saves the brand or not. But it seems to be their only way out given the fierce onslaught from jap cruisers and triumph which offer far better engineered bikes .

[Steeroid]

This is going to be interesting. Its a lazy strategy to get Chinese (or any other) drivetrain and or chassis and brand it HD. Nothing against the drivetrain or ‘pedigree’ of the donor - it just seems like a very lazy effort. The Chinese and Indian commuter bikes probably put a lot more kms on the road than a shiny weekend lifestyle accessory like a Harley.

The strategy is good, the implementation though seems very iffy.

[nitro.1000bhp]

Well, I think HD made a big blunder with their street models. They look positively depressing in my opinion. They should have taken a page out of the KTM book, the Duke 390 looks pretty similar to the 1290s and that makes the 390 droolworthy and very desirable. If HD had made the street look like a mini fat boy or something rather with loads of chrome and bling than this all black 'disappear in the background 'paint scheme there might have been a lot more takers. I really doubt this 300 will find any takers in India but it's probably meant for their established markets to lure younger buyers .

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

What would be the reaction if Mercedes Benz decides to take the Suzuki Swift head on in India with an equally priced small hatchback?

Mate Mercedes Benz is not in a financial crunch position as HD is, besides Mercedes Benz is a part of a larger Daimler group which not only makes cars but also heavy vehicles and commercial vehicles. I am not sure if HD has any such subsidiaries besides their apparel and accessories business. HD's major dependency is on their motorcycle line up. I wasn't surprised to see Toyota re-badging Suzuki's Baleno as Glanza. It was a pure business decision, although Toyota is in a relatively better position in India. But I digress as Motorcycle business is very different from Car business. Classic example is Suzuki which isn't able to repeat their success of four wheeler business in their two wheeler business in India.

I know that the motorcycle business is rapidly dying the USA and I understand Harley-Davidson's intentions to diversity the brand and try to stay afloat. I think HD should create an alternate brand to sell tourers and sport bikes.

That will be a good strategy mate. It will be similar to how Toyota offers Lexus as their luxury brand, Nissan offers Infiniti, Mercedes offers Maybach, etc.

Seeing HD getting into smaller motorcycles and even ADV category shows their seriousness to remain alive.

[mahalingam_a]

I m sorry but no prejudices against any country or manufacturer. The news that HD is to be manufactured by Qianjiang of China is a big turn off. I think, this is a desparate move by HD to push for sales in growing markets with a cheaper price point. Does it signal that HD is contemplating Quantity rather than Quality of its products, will have to wait and see.

[alpha1]

For all those who are against this strategy: I would like to ask you guys - what should HD do with the existing portfolio in order to achieve a Year on Year growth not just in sales but also profits?

Sales/revenue is stagnant, profits are dwindling. No wonder the stock prices are down. And so it the asset value held by the owners.

My analysis based on the given information in the public domain:
https://www.marketscreener.com/HARLEY-DAVIDSON-12894/

As estimated by analysts, this group is among those businesses with the lowest growth prospects.

Net sales break down geographically as follows: the United States (67.7%), Europe/Middle East/Africa (15.7%), Canada (4.4%), Japan (2.8%), Australia and New Zealand (2.6%) and other (6.8%).

Which regions houses the largest populations in the world (China and India)? Asia
What is this region's market share? Peanuts
What is the easiest way to increase sales figures? Increase penetration in Asia
What is the entry barrier? Low market price

Who are the owners of Harley Davidson? All Financial bigwig investment funds who have got multiple options to park their money if HD doesn't deliver increasing dividends and increased capital gains.

How are the Chinese and Indian companies performing in the 2-wheeler segment? Doesn't it make sense to adapt and adopt the way of the companies are on the uptrend rather than stick with old strategy that is on the downtrend.

[roy_libran]

I'm no financial analyst, but as a customer, when I was recently shopping around for a middle-weight bike, I was astounded to realize that HD didn't have any credible offering in the 5-10 lakh INR segment. Even their offerings higher up on the price ladder don't have a value proposition or USP (apart from just the name and looks), and are riddled with dodgy reliability track records.
While name and looks can help you sell bikes in a yet to mature market, there is no way that they will continue to generate numbers in an almost matured market. A matured market will also consist of customers who will be buying their second or third machines and will be a lot more discerning than first time buyers. So, in a matured market the game moves on to bikes tuned for specific use cases in which they excel, or bikes with fabulous reliability or performance at a price point that provides value.
Which of these boxes does HD tick, or can tick in the short term? I am afraid, None!

Hence, HD rightly realize that they are not going to be able to UP the game in this segment or upwards. But, if that makes them suppose that going down the market ladder is going to rescue them from this situation, I don't think they are going to get lucky there. The market down below is ruled by the RE 650 twins (which I personally detest, but that is aside from the point), and a 338 cc machine automatically loses bragging rights or on perceived value. They cannot win the performance battle against anything in that entire segment either, and then the competition will hammer them with the Chinese bike tag, like what happened with some of the wonderful offerings from Benelli, and I don't see a much different fate for HD in the domestic market than what Benelli is now facing despite very good products. Moresoover, in this process they are going to irreparably damage the one thing that they did have in their favour - their brand and name.

I don't see this as a way out for HD, but as a beginning of the end of the road for them.


P.S.
1. They could have though, taken some cues from their rival Triumph, both on technological enrichment for their offerings and pricing (discount) models, which is probably seeing more success than what HD are getting, without diluting their brand or product line.
2. Another company that seems to have got it all wrong recently is KTM, who are launching smaller and smaller products whereas their HALO and Unicorn products are all waiting to see the light of day, some for years now! The 390 should have been their entry point and everything else only upwards. For now it seems the 390 is their Top!!!

[neil.jericho]

Timeline : For quite a while
Harley Davidson : Lets keep doing Harley Davidson things
Customers : No wonder the Harley Davidson brand is dying. They arent doing anything new. The average age of owners is getting older and older. They arent bringing in new buyers. We dont want HD to fail. Wake up from your slumber, HD, wake up!

Timeline : A few years ago
Harley Davidson : Here is the Street 750, we are reducing the entry cost barrier to the HD brand and new owners can later upgrade within HD.
Customers : Preposterous! This isnt a true HD. Weekend rides for HD bikes with 883 cc and above only.

Timeline : Recently
Harley Davidson : OK fine! We will make an adventure tourer uglier than you can imagine and a good looking streetfighter and upgrade our product lines!
Customers : Are you kidding me?! These new products arent Harley enough. What a joke!

Timeline : Last week
Harley Davidson : We are in real trouble, we need to sell in high volumes to survive. At the price of losing some loyalists who are old anyways, here is the restyled Benelli that might keep us alive and the profits of which will help us roll out new models.
Customers : Rest. In. Peace.

The reality is that what made Harley Davidson, well Harley Davidson, is exactly what has led it to such a precarious position. They cannot continue without evolving. I may not be a fan of the Harley Davidson brand but as an automobile enthusiast, I will easily admit that the brand has so much history and is an important part of the 2 wheeler enthusiasts fraternity across the world.

I echo Navin_V8's thoughts. I would rather have a new and evolved HD over no HD at all.

[ethanhunt123]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Timeline : For quite a while
Harley Davidson : Lets keep doing Harley Davidson things
Customers : No wonder the Harley Davidson brand is dying. They arent doing anything new. The average age of owners is getting older and older. They arent bringing in new buyers. We dont want HD to fail. Wake up from your slumber, HD, wake up!

Timeline : A few years ago
Harley Davidson : Here is the Street 750, we are reducing the entry cost barrier to the HD brand and new owners can later upgrade within HD.
Customers : Preposterous! This isnt a true HD. Weekend rides for HD bikes with 883 cc and above only.

Timeline : Recently
Harley Davidson : OK fine! We will make an adventure tourer uglier than you can imagine and a good looking streetfighter and upgrade our product lines!
Customers : Are you kidding me?! These new products arent Harley enough. What a joke!

Timeline : Last week
Harley Davidson : We are in real trouble, we need to sell in high volumes to survive. At the price of losing some loyalists who are old anyways, here is the restyled Benelli that might keep us alive and the profits of which will help us roll out new models.
Customers : Rest. In. Peace.

The reality is that what made Harley Davidson, well Harley Davidson, is exactly what has led it to such a precarious position. They cannot continue without evolving. I may not be a fan of the Harley Davidson brand but as an automobile enthusiast, I will easily admit that the brand has so much history and is an important part of the 2 wheeler enthusiasts fraternity across the world.

I echo Navin_V8's thoughts. I would rather have a new and evolved HD over no HD at all.

Yeah well you missed a couple of key things there. 750 twins were very poor motorcycles at the price points they launched - horrible brakes, lack of performance & even lack of typical Harley street presence. Only reason they were selling is why other Harleys sell - brand name.

The slew of motorcycles they showcased late last year as concepts are actually quite interesting if they manage to deliver segment competitive performance & features. The renamed Benelli is nothing short of a disaster though - will have the same or worse fate than the 750 twins for HD.

[payeng]

There was a sense of excitement / positive vibes among Indian customers when there was news of the Harley Street 750.

I don't sense even a wee bit of excitement on news of the even smaller "China Made" Harley.. would be super curious as to how Harley would pull it off.

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by ethanhunt123

Yeah well you missed a couple of key things there. 750 twins were very poor motorcycles at the price points they launched - horrible brakes, lack of performance & even lack of typical Harley street presence.

You certainly bring out an interesting perspective on the 750 twins
1. Poor braking was a certainly an issue from day 1.
2. The earlier entry level model from HD was the Iron 883. Below are the specifications of the 883 Iron
Power : 50.6 PS
Torque : 70 NM
Now with the 750 being the new entry level motorcycle, surely its specifications could not outdo that of the 883 from a product positioning perspective. Below are the specifications of the Street 750
Power : 47.6 PS
Torque : 59 NM
So HD neatly engineered the Street 750 to slot in below the 883 without challenging it or making the 883 redundant. Also Ive been on rides with a fellow TBHPian who owned a Street 750. In the real world, it has more than enough performance for the roads we have. So I dont see how it lacks performance.
3. To me (YMMV), when the topic of HD bikes and presence comes up, the conversation really starts with the bigger (and more expensive) offerings. Again, if HD had made the Street 750 look as big as its other offerings, nobody would have put down any money for the traditional big and burly HD bikes and would have bought the Street 750. There had to be some compromise to logically space out their products.

Combining 2 and 3, if HD had given the Street 750 twins more power and made them bigger and say, equally sized as the rest of the range, HD would have sold tons of Street 750s and nothing else!

Originally Posted by ethanhunt123

Only reason they were selling is why other Harleys sell - brand name.

Im no big fan of the Street 750 myself but the bike did have its merits and did make HD bikes affordable. TBHPian alpha1 has done a great job of listing this.

Originally Posted by ethanhunt123

The slew of motorcycles they showcased late last year as concepts are actually quite interesting if they manage to deliver segment competitive performance & features. The renamed Benelli is nothing short of a disaster though - will have the same or worse fate than the 750 twins for HD.

They could have gone down without a fight or they could have grasped at every straw hoping to avoid their current impending doom. Not trying anything would have been the worst option at this time!

[ethanhunt123]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Also Ive been on rides with a fellow TBHPian who owned a Street 750. In the real world, it has more than enough performance for the roads we have. So I dont see how it lacks performance.


Im no big fan of the Street 750 myself but the bike did have its merits and did make HD bikes affordable. TBHPian alpha1 has done a great job of listing this.

Well - that way one can argue that Duke 390 is all the performance on would need 95% of the time on our roads - so anything beyond that is overkill. I disagree though - the 5% of the time you get a chance to open the throttle is when you really enjoy owning a big bike. Besides i was comparing performance of the HD750 with others in its price range - its a laggard compared to them all. I honestly dont think it had any great merits apart from HD tag - but then in my eyes thats true for most bikes in HD stable which lack any modern tech, performance or comfort features. All they have is Size, sound and brand name.

If HD has to do well - it has to come up with better engineered & better featured motorcycles rather than badge engineering cheap bikes.

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by ethanhunt123

Besides i was comparing performance of the HD750 with others in its price range - its a laggard compared to them all.

Mate I am curious to know the bikes which compare against Harley Davidson Street 750 when it was launched. Could you list them.

If HD has to do well - it has to come up with better engineered & better featured motorcycles rather than badge engineering cheap bikes.

Could you elaborate on what strategy Harley Davidson can implement. Better engineered and better featured is a very broad term. Can you be more specific, it would be interesting to know mate.