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Old 27th June 2019, 16:45   #16
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Default Re: How not to get scammed while purchasing classic bikes

Very informative and important thread. My brother is trying to sell his college year's Hero Honda Ambition, and he was surprised how many people were eager to get more information on his bike and take the delivery by making some partial payments (even if the bike would sell for less than 10k).
One pattern that he noticed is, most of these guys use phone and messenger apps for conversation but are not exactly ready to meet physically, face to face to negotiate. They often cite reasons like 'C'mon, its just an old bike, whats there to look at ?' or 'Can't spend personal time just for a severely depreciated item, I am ready to pay 20% of total money now and take it right away bla bla bla' etc.
That is where he stopped advertising his bike on such portals, he is doing it the old way of contacting used bike sellers in old city who own 'proper' shops/showrooms.
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Old 27th June 2019, 16:47   #17
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Default Re: How not to get scammed while purchasing classic bikes

Excellent thread and lots of eye openers
I would like to add some more bits - if you still manage to get convinced into a "genuine seller" who invites you to see the bike, please be ultra cautious and take following precautions

a) Please take along at-least one friend of yours
b) Please keep your family informed about the location where you are going
c) Try to meet at a known place within the city and not outskirts.
d) Keep your eyes and ears open for anything happening around

Many scammers might move to the next level of mugging you and in-turn harming you. Most of the times their ambition to earn quick money is myopic and would eventually land in police trap but you may be subjected to torture
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Old 28th June 2019, 17:29   #18
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Default Re: How not to get scammed while purchasing classic bikes

How to be a Shrewd Negotiator

Now that you have a fair idea on how you are not get scammed, Now we come to the most important part. Buying the bike at the right price.

I will always advise you to do the deal yourself and do it face to face.

The First step


Gaining knowledge

Once you zero down on the kind of bike you wanna buy make sure you start gaining all the knowledge there is. First find out the variants, I will take shogun as a example since its my most recent purchase and all the steps are pretty fresh in my memory.

Its important to know all TVS Suzuki bikes share a lot of similar parts, the chassis is similar in all of the bikes, front and rear wheel is same, the suspension is same, the chain cover is same, the engine cases are same(the crank cases are different, but we will come to that). Essentially each bike can be converted to the other.



The above video shows how you can identify the shogun, but both shogun and shaolin have a lot of common stuff and one is a champ and other is a dud. So it becomes even more important to learn more about the small things.

You should also find out the price of things that can easily go bad and use this information to negotiate.

Its important that you practice self restraint while you are talking to the owner, nobody likes Mr. "I know it all", Its pretty easy to come out as a perfect douche bag.

Now the first rule of the negotiation is to talk, strike a conversation with the owner/seller, find out when he bought the bike and what he has done to it over the years, if he just bout it ask him what his plan was, Its ok to ask some personal questions on what he does for a living etc, but always be in your limits

Once you have a circle of trust start talking

Now this is only possible if the owner is not a douche and is a nice guy. Always remember, its a buyers market. Not just shogun, everything only sells if the price is right and the buyer sees a value in it. If you encounter a douche, walk away. Let me give you an example

Couple of months back(after i bought the shogun) I was also looking for a Hero Honda CBZ, that was the most quintessential bike during my college era. I had one in college which was owned by a close friend who was abroad.

So i call the seller and find out if i can come and checkout the bike, a kid picks up the phone and he says his dad had put the listing and is not phone savvy, so I get the location from the kid and asked what time his dad is available and I go to his house to check the bike,

The bike was advertised for a reasonable amount so my expectations were not high, but i was told its running and paperwork is in place.

I go to a not so nice neighbourhood and i see this auto driver who is the seller, he doesn't look me in the eye and he looks permanently pissed.

So i just asked him why he is selling, he said I don't need to give an answer to that question, I was ok and finally i asked him more questions he was getting even more pissed. So finally i thanked him for his time and walked away, i decided not even to give him an offer. The bike is still available.

So if its a douche you end dealing with walk out, even if its the last available bike on this face of the earth.

The Second step



Being that perfect buyer


You are now a man with all the knowledge, you have had a nice friendly conversation with the seller, now its important you talk but you talk such that it sounds more like an advise, You need to tell him that what all things are bad and also tell him the key things people look for. Things like the cylinder size can mean absolutely nothing, so talk about things you can see, over all paint condition, tyres, battery, speedo, various lights.

Tell him that you know that these will not affect you much since you already know what you are getting into and tell him that you have seen worst examples. if its a long term ownership the owner will be reasonable in his ask.

One most important thing for a seller is talking to the buyer post sale and solving issues, When I sold the last shogun, I had I had asked the seller to turn off the petrol tap during refueling and ensure he does that every time he refuels. This was because the tank had rust and chance of fuel agitating the rust and pushing it through the tap to clog the filter was very high. This guy ends up ignoring my instructions and ends up with a fully clogged filter, he takes it to the roadside mech who ends up giving him a 6K plus repair expense along with a 3-4 day wait. More on it here (I bought a Suzuki Shogun to Restore. UPDATE: Back with me again!)

Tell him that you are not goin to complain to him post purchase and you understand what you are getting into. Long term owners usually understand that.

The third step



Final pricing


You cannot list the entire list of parts, however you can make a rough estimate and try to ask the owner if he can meet you up somewhere in the middle.

Its important to put your money where your mouth is and tell him that you are carrying the money/ you can pull it out the ATM right now if the deal goes through, Most owners know that they have to wait for days to months to get the cash and most want the item to be gone as soon as it placed for sale.


Walking away

I cannot emphasize on the importance of this, some deals don't work out, its important you get the signs early and plan an exit.

Walk out gracefully, don't say anything negative, just say i will think and get back to you.

If everything goes as per plan then you are going to be sitting on your new bike and that too at a sweet price.

Pramod

Last edited by pramodkumar : 28th June 2019 at 17:31.
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Old 25th July 2019, 20:30   #19
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Default Re: How not to get scammed while purchasing classic bikes

Sellers beware, there are new scams, all originating from OLX.

I read about this scam through this post

Quote:
Originally Posted by maverickxx2006 View Post
I couldnt find relevant section so posted here, Mods pls move this to appropriate one.
I wanted to highlight one scam which I encountered recently while selling one item on OLX.
Details of the thread here (Beware of scams - Even if you're an online SELLER! Fake paypal receipts etc.)

Now today I get a call on one of my ad on OLX, the buyer didn't negotiate, he just asked me if I could ship? I said yes.

He then told me that he is sending me his address, I asked him if he is ok with the price and then he threw a curve ball at me, COD


I did what every sane person would do, Gave him a lecture

Pramod

Last edited by ampere : 25th July 2019 at 20:53. Reason: quoted post trimmed
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Old 2nd August 2019, 11:21   #20
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Default Re: How not to get scammed while purchasing classic bikes

The curious case of Bikes without NOC

We all, well most; are aware that the NGT has cracked its whip on vehicles above 15 years old and they are not renewing the fitness of old 2S bikes and some Classic 4S bikes. The 2S bikes don't fall under the "vintage classic" category since they are not old enough.

Long story short, These bikes are illegal on the road. These bikes mostly originate from Delhi and NCR, with Meerut being an exception.

So the RC is invalid and the RTO is not issuing NOC for re registration to a different state.

So bikes only from the above states and Districts fall under the "I have an RC but no NOC". This kind of statement from any other registration should immediately set the alarm Bells ringing.

Hear me out; what is an NOC, an NOC is a certificate issued by the RTO that says this vehicle doesn't have any known liabilities with the RTO, By liabilities, they mean to say, HP from a financer, any TAX dues and any pending RTO fines. The RTO could not issue this NOC for any other liabilities or issue.

What could these "other liabilities" be? Well, There are many.

Mainly Theft recovery or other Crime records. Crime records is an extremely broad topic, It could be anything from Traffic violations to something as dangerous as a case under NIA.

The moment you get a vehicle details ensure you run the number in the National Crime records Bureau, Link

You would need the following details
  • Vehicle Type
  • Registration Number
  • Chassis or Vin Number
  • Engine Number

The NCRB clearance Certificate can be downloaded and used to see if the Vehicle is clean. If its not, buying a tainted vehicle is as good as saying " Aa Bael Mujhe Maar"

Some sellers are clean, they keep the paperwork in order and they go the extra mile to ensure that the vehicle is transferred to the new owners name. The bikes(only classic bikes) have a very low road tax in the state which it needs registration. So if you are a seller, ensure the Bike is getting registered in buyers name in the new state, any violations by the buyer in his state can be traced back to the seller.

Now that you have a clear what a bike with NOC actually mean, I hope it can prevent a lot of hassle later.

Now, the other category is of sellers who promise you the sun, moon along with the whole Galaxy. While dealing with such people first thing you need to ask is if the seller is the owner of the bike, if not, his obligation towards you is limited and will end the moment the bike is with you, he will definitely charge you a hell lot more for completing the paperwork.

Its always better to ensure you have all the documents in order and all the required documents collected before you make the final payment and take delivery of the bike. If the bike is not in your location make sure you have a man on the ground, by man on the ground i didn't mean that 1 Facebook friend who you never met .


Pramod

Last edited by pramodkumar : 2nd August 2019 at 11:27.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 20:44   #21
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Default Re: How not to get scammed while purchasing classic bikes

Are the renewal of registration of 2s not possible anymore?
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Old 4th August 2019, 02:46   #22
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Default Re: How not to get scammed while purchasing classic bikes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashley Nair View Post
Are the renewal of registration of 2s not possible anymore?
Only in Delhi and NCR + Merut


Pramod
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Old 8th August 2019, 19:28   #23
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Default Re: How not to get scammed while purchasing classic bikes

Expensive doesn't always mean better

There are people who look at the market and price their bikes at par with the best bikes in the market. For example un restored and fully restored bikes are similarly priced, they usually differ by a couple to a few thousand rupees. People want top money for their bikes, so most of the quick flippers usually polish a turd and unload it in the market

You will always get the best deal when you buy something from a long term owner, first question you ask the seller is if the bike is in his name. No long term owner will keep the bike in the previous owner's name, if the bike is not in the seller's name, chances are that you have a quick flipper or someone who has shady paperwork. Owners usually sell when they upgrade or when its not being used anymore.

Story time

There was an ad on some online classifieds site a few years ago, Yamaha rx 100 for 12k, I was over the moon when I saw the ad, I quickly called up the seller and in my excitement I forget to ask him basic questions. I took the car and drove 20kms to go see the bike.

The Seller was not the registered owner, he was a guy in his early 30s and was a private bus driver, I don't have anything against bus drivers or auto drivers, nor I am trying to generalize anyone, but in my experience these people are usually street smart.

He brings an average looking bike, I ask him to show me the paperwork and he said he didn't bring, so I asked him if he could get it. He simply chose to tell me the truth, he said the engine on the bike is different from what the bike originally came with. I am sucker for great stories but this one was weird.

He told me the previous owner died in an accident on the bike and seller changed the engine and the chassis from a scrap bike. Basically it was a bike with a paperwork from a different bike. The engine number was different from the chassis number, basically it was two different bikes put together to make a third one which had a paperwork( apparently) from a 4th bike. That was my cue to get out. It could be stolen or worse has a police case on it.

Some poor Gullible kid who is ready to take that risk to get that dream classic bike will end up with these kind of shady bikes, once he is done he will pass it to the next gullible kid and the cycle continues.

long story short, a few right questions can save you some valuable time. The first question I usually get for things I post for sale is "what is your last price"

Ask the seller to give you the vehicle number if its already not visible in the pics, tell him that you need this to check the validity of the paperwork. Most of the states have a system where you can check the details of a vehicle. This can also tell you if you are buying the same variant of the bike which is registered in the Motor Vehicle department. For example a Shogun which is registered as a Samurai is definitely a strict no.

No Mods can be judged from the Pics, a shogun or RX with a TVS Pheonix rear shock(a very popular mod now) will have an issue with its stand, shocks being longer than stock basically wont allow the bike to sit on the center stand, you have to see for yourself on what kind of hack job is done to mitigate this.

A flat slide without proper jetting will run like crap, same will be the case with chamber which is not tuned. Ported usually means ruined unless it translates to explosive power, which obviously can't be tested over the phone.

I would personally ask you to stay away from heavily modded bikes, unless you know the bike well, Mods usually doesn't get you anything, you pay what the bike is worth for. For example a Hero Honda CD 100 can be restored by pumping in over 50k into it, but it will only sell for 10-15k max.

Ask the right questions and do your due diligence before you meet the seller face to face.

Pramod
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