[pramodkumar]

I am always in for a sweet deal, I can never say I have too many bikes, I own 5 bikes in my stable and at a time at least 3-4 bikes belonging to friends are there.

Like many, I too spend my time browsing bikes for sale both on OLX and on various Facebook enthusiast and buy/sell groups.

In this example I will focus on RD 350 and Yamaha RX.

Every single thread on the internet on the legendary RD 350 gets multiple hits, there are fanboys who made it even more popular.

The RDs have the pinnacle of what I call crazy pricing. I have seen well cared for RDs going for close to 4 lacs in 2016. This was a time when normal RDs were going for under 2. The story is very different now. You cannot find a clean RD with clean paperwork for under 3 lacs.

It all started when most of the fan boys could not afford one, so they started posting on various online classifieds sites for throw away prices, hoping to control the market with their fake ads. How do I know the? I have met multiple such characters. Their aim is to spam a classifieds site with fake ads that look extremely real and drive the price down. Have they succeeded?

Hell no, but I know a friend who posted his RD at 2.3 Lacs for a quick sale, fearing these ads and sold it in under 10 minutes. Dude still regrets his sale.

Now these bikes constantly feature in movies and more people started associating these bikes with Indian 2 stroke muscle. It soon became a rite of passage, kids have to own one, people of my era had to own one, people of the older generation had to own one. Long story short, everyone needed one. Problem number 1

I have a friend who wanted one. He calls me one day and tells me he has a dying wish so I took him to a guy who had a Yamaha rd 350 with no paperwork, this was back in 2015, the guy was asking a reasonable 50k. Now my friend tries to be a shrewd negotiator and tries to low ball him, 10K, yes that's what he offered him. The seller was more than offended. I asked my friend, what was wrong with him?, he told me that he had sold at least 5-6 bikes for under 10k in the year 1999-2000. He could not believe that the market has appreciated. People do chase that cheap unicorn ! Problem No 2


The quick flippers.

If you post a bike for sale on olx, in under 10 minutes someone will contact you, give you a story on how he is desperate to buy the bike and will tell you that the money will be wired in 10 minutes, he won't even negotiate. He will ask you to send him some more pics of the bike and the RC and he will also ask you to send him your ID proofs before he can wire you the money.

All well, right? Wrong. He has more pics than you actually posted in your ad, he will create another ad, this time even more convincing than yours and post your very own bike with a slight markup. He will post it on social media and then he will flip this and make money. Problem no 3

Well, what's wrong in that? most dealers do that.

Some of these deals go south, the seller pulls of the bike from sale or sells it and the quick flipper was not that fast to act. The quick flipper has taken an advance on the deal and he has already spend most of it so now the cat and mouse chase begins.

The quick flipper has now tasted blood, he repeats it. a related thread here (OLX fake ad victim - Do NOT ever share a pic of your RC book with online buyers)

more to continue

Pramod

[pramodkumar]

Now comes the scammers

These guys are lowlifes, they can stoop down to any level so you need to ensure you do your due diligence.

Everyone knows if a deal is too good to be true it usually is. Now when they get some out of the world deal they put their guard down. They try to finish this deal secretly, they don't inform any of their friends they don't do any due diligence or they do minimal due diligence. Let me give you an example.

One guy posts a pic of a scrap RD 350(usually mine ) precisely this very pic.



why this pic? because it shows the side view of the bike and it doesn't show the number plate. All he does is post this image on some facebook group and people start typing, interested, Next

Some also go the extent of messaging him, Then comes a series of stories.

The bike is in my cousin's name
The bike is in scrap condition, i am selling for 30k without paperwork
I bought this for restoration and unable to complete it
The bike "Insert The story here"

When people hear stories, they should ideally bring their guard up and do due diligence. But we all love a good story, We still believe in those sub 50k bikes. We still believe we are shrewd negotiators. We still believe no one can cheat us. So we end up wiring them some "small amount" the moment you do a wire transfer, just kiss your money good bye, there is no way you can get your money back, there is no way you can prove the reason the money was paid for goods you never received.

What ever was your thought, the hunter has now became the hunted. Accept it and move on, do not fall for such traps again, educate people without naming and shaming people, why no naming and shaming? This will open a container of worms and naming will take the entire focus away from the main issue and people will start posting more names and it will continue to snowball without any resolution.

I don't want to comment on the legal aspect, however the police will just file an FIR(if you are lucky) and nothing more will happen on this.

We can do a lot to prevent all this.

To be continued

Pramod

[pramodkumar]

Its very important we all understand there are no free lunches!

Its kind of hypocritical when I say this, while I have paid for none of my bikes, all were gifts

Its human tendency to get maximum out of what they have, we live in a country where people use same toothbrush for years

Jokes apart, everywhere people are same, they want maximum money for whatever they have, they have something worth 1k, they will ask for 1200.

If someone is asking you less than the market value, that should raise a flag immediately, understand the fact that something is not right.

Ask a lot of questions

Never think that you will offend the seller if you ask questions, however try not to be a jerk.

I had once posted a bike on OLX long time ago and I get a private call with no number displayed, the guy asks me a lot of questions, I answer them, finally he asks me what a balloon grip is(it was in the ad description). I politely tell him that such grips usually used to come in vintage bikes and he just tells me that he owns a lot of vintage and he told me that he has bikes which he can guarantee that I have never ever heard the name of in my life.
He then said "I have a Yamaha R1rxz" I was like



Nothing frustrates anyone than hearing some gyan from random strangers on the phone.

Do not negotiate over chat/phone

I don't like talking to random strangers, I prefer WhatsApp/chat. But however uncomfortable I am I pickup the phone and talk to the seller in person. Never ever ask for last price or try to negotiate on the phone.

I will give you guys an example from my recent shogun purchase. The ad had a reasonably good looking shogun with a chamber on it the number plates were masked. The price was 35k, I could have got it down to 30 on the phone, but when I went and saw the bike, it was not even worth 25, the chamber was missing, the visor was broken, the paint job was pathetic.

More on the shogun

here

I asked the seller very politely, what does he think the bike is worth. He said he will take 30, I started negotiating further and got him down to a price where i was essentially paying for the bike with paperwork. BTW I paid 24K, 1k less than what I had budgeted for a non runner goner. That brings me to my next point.

Have a realistic budget

Have a realistic budget, being realistic is the key, do not aim for the stars but try to land somewhere on the moon. Easier said than done! Try to research for the price of some most common items, for example.

if you get a ratty RX 135 with a standard cylinder for 25 k(dream on) understand that the cylinder itself is around 12-15k, the clutch is worth another 3-4k, The carb is worth 2k, the cycle parts is worth2-3kdepending on the condition of the rims, the head is around 1k and most importantly the paperwork is the most valuable item.

Now loaded with the above info you would clearly know what it takes to replace each faulty/missing part, use that as your negotiating tool. Now you can clearly understand how a 12k(This one (A ground up restoration: Yamaha RX135 4-speed)) RX 135 can become a money pit if you don't have access to reasonably priced spares. This can tell you which is a good deal which is not.

The paperwork

once you get a great deal you ignore this most trivial item, paperwork. I have seen bikes with no paperwork being traded on facebook as openly as trading wwf trump cards. A bike without paperwork is essentially a stolen bike, if you ignore this you will be in big trouble. I will tell you how, I had a friend who had an rd 350 which he bought from some punter in Bangalore and paid around 50k, this way back in 2009. The punter told him that he also didn't have any paperwork since it was a police auction bike. He bought the bike because of the awesome deal and took the bike for a service, the mechanic whom he took the bike called the cops on him and my friend was lucky to have got out of this without any major jail time, its needless to say he lost his money and his bike. I know couple of people who had to dismantle their bikes and hide them at hideouts, do you really want to be one of those people?

How can be we more careful?

Cross verify every ad you see online

You can post ads in the groups and you will come to know somethings about the bike. check for the pics and do reverse searches. These reverse searches usually gives you much more information than the verifying if the listing is genuine.

example



This was an ad that I saw on olx today, on doing a reverse search with the below image



this is the screenshot of the google image search.



Original link to article where this scamster has picked up these images from.

Its obvious that this bike is not for sale, now some might think he might have replicated the looks of this bike, This thread is definitely not for those people. Only God can save them from themselves

Try to understand, you will not be sabotaging any deals by sharing it with people, You will only benefit from it. Don't be paranoid. This is your heard earned money, spend it well.

Pramod

[Lambro]

Holy smokes, that RD belongs to a friend of mine!

[anshuman_v]

Thanks. Actually this scam applies to other things as well. I was recently trying to buy a high end cycle - original cost of the particular model I had in mind was upwards of a lakh. And I saw some offers of ~40k on olx kind of sites, which was a steal. The seller was too shifty - and did not really allow me to see the bike for some pretext or other. Now I realize it was just a scam. Good to read this article

[pramodkumar]

So, the above scenarios are total basket cases. What about bikes with partial paperwork?

So there are bikes that rot with their new owners, priorities and other commitments keep them from riding. These bikes have incomplete paperwork.

Getting an insurance or pollution is simple, anyone can get one. The real scary situation is when you buy an out of station bike without valid paperwork.

Lets say you got a Delhi/NCR bike and the seller says he just has the RC, its your que to run. Delhi/NCR has the 15 year rule, all these vehicles past 15 years are supposed to be scrapped. You will neither get the RC renewed, nor an NOC. The Bike in such cases becomes an expensive paperweight.

Running a bike without a proper paperwork is not something that can go away with a few Gandhis. Its a crime, with the new amendments to the motor vehicle rules, this is going to be more stringent.

If you meet with an accident on such a bike the cops can arrest you and confiscate you bike. If your accident causes a third party damage, you are in for Jail time.

Another creative method some owners follow is getting fake paperwork from Mizoram, trust me if the RTOs in Kerala see a Mizo bike, they are extra vigilant. Trust me, its not worth it.

I know the story of a Delhi Registered RD 350 which was sold to Kerala, the seller promised an NOC, but it didn't workout, finally the jugadu seller got a Mizo registration which had couple of mistakes in the chassis number and this bike went to the RTO with a different engine and chassis number. The Kerala RTO is filled with young officers and they know everything that one needs to know about a vehicle, they seized the vehicle and then the owner had to admit that he doctored the chassis number, because of his hold in the system he got out and he got his bike also back. Everyone is not that lucky!

How can you save yourself?

Once you have the details do research, find out how the RTO works, does it have any special rules like the 15 year rule? I would prefer to buy a bike where the owner is taking full responsibility of the bike's paperwork before I hand over a wad of my hard earned cash. Ideally I should get all the paperwork which can just be submitted to my local RTO and call it done.

How to we get sweet deals then?

well, there are no shortcuts, especially when it comes to paperwork, any deal with shady/ incomplete paperwork is a as good as buying a paperweight with wheels. however there is a caveat, there are people who have been to a different state and have contacts there, for example when I wanted to buy a cruze auto, I went a bought one from Delhi NCR, the difference between a car here and a car in NCR was almost 3-4 lacs. That money saved went into Mods

Bike with no paperwork is a no-no, even if its going to be a parts bike, have some kind of paperwork. No, a photocopy of the RC is not considered as paperwork.

Pramod

[pramodkumar]

This one is a touchy subject and maximum scams happen here.

Spares!!!

The youngest bike that I have is 18 Years old and the oldest one is 35. Yamaha India is obligated to provide support only till 10 years from the date of production end(or is it 15?). Now the problem is most of the commonly used spares are available, at least in the city where I live, but there are cities and states where enthusiasts own these bikes and there are no spare shops which stock these spares. There is a huge demand and supply void, in comes the black market trade to fill this void. Today you can get anything related to a Yamaha rx or RD, yes anything.

You want a NOS RD 350 tank, yes there are sellers who stock them, NOS RD 350 Chassis, you got it. But of course, they demand a premium. Look at it from this angle.

I live around 17 KMs away from the nearest Yamaha OE spares dealer, so its a 34-35 minutes round trip, which I can only make during weekends, that takes at least 3 hours of my time. Plus I spend close to 3-4 liters of fuel. Even if I don't factor car maintenance and my time, buying a 1000 rupees item at 1200-1300 plus 100 rs shipping still makes sense to me, I save time Plus I don't have to wait for a whole week to go to the spare shop, I can place the order the seller ships it on the very next day and then I get it in 2-3 days delivered to my office.

Now if the mark ups were like what I mentioned above it made absolute sense. However, that's not the case.

You have to understand that if you do research and find out the right sellers, there are sellers who still sell on MRP plus shipping. However there is a caveat, Delhi spares has flooded the market and there is absolutely no quality control over it, plus the prices are crazy.

A wiring kit from swiss is more expensive than an OE Yamaha packed wiring kit for Rx 135, yes that's correct. when Indiaspares was running it was a great place to do research on pricing and they also used to do cash on delivery. Now the only way you can check things is either call the nearest Yamaha dealer and request them for the official prices and make a decision.

Markups are not usually what I have mentioned above, its usually more than 250%, yes that's right.

A brand new RX 135 4 speed standard cylinder kit that was last sold at an MRP of 7.5k is now 17k, The 5 speed cylinder kits go as high as 25k. We might all agree its daylight robbery, but I have a point to make.

The seller had either searched the entire market and found the cylinder kit which he is now selling at a huge markup, or he has stocked these when the price was low and is reaping the benefits of an appreciating market. Isn't that the first rule of business, buy cheap and sell at higher price when the market appreciates?

Off topic, bit coins were exactly like this. we cannot fight people's basic nature, everyone wants to make money, they all want to get rich faster. This is the path they chose, at least they are not putting a gun to someone's head.

Now you might wonder where the scam is in this whole story I wrote?

Well, there are people who use this appreciation in the market and sell fake spares under the guise of genuine spares at a lower price or at the inflated price. Read fine prints, words like imported, Taiwan are synonymous to Delhi made cheap spares.

You will see reputed sellers on social media are selling shogun imported cylinders which they bought from Aliexpress (for under 3k) above 6-7k, Geotze RX cylinder kits are sold in OE Yamaha packaging, Delhi manufactured cylinder kits are sold in OE packing. Most of the people do not understand the series numbers on the cylinders.

99% of RX spares are fake, almost 100% of RD 350 spares available in India are fake.

Apart from fake spare sellers there is this usual breed of "middle men" who try to arrange "Spares" or provide "A-Z spares", A lot of these sellers disappear with your money to resurface with a different name. There was such an idiot I met in one such social media groups. He had posted an RX 100, 2T oil level gauge. I was interested, the price was right. So here is my conversation with him.

Seller(S): Bro I have the spare bro.
Me: Great, could you share some pics?
S: I will do it tomorrow
Me: ok
S: can you wire me 200
Me: Why?
S: for petrol money
Me: what?
S: I do this to help fellow bikers, yada yada...
Me: I have not said that I will buy from you yet, I need to see the pics first.
S: Are you interested in the spare
Me: Yes, Very much
S: Then send the money
Me: Send me the pics first
S: I am not selling to you
Me: I am not buying from you either
S: @#$%%
Me:

These are typical conversations fake sellers will have. To earn a markup, one has to work really hard, no negative feedback, great reviews.

Another important tool is apps which can show you the person's details with his phone numbers, if there is bad review or no details that's your cue to walk out of the deal.

Pull your guard up the moment something feels wrong, People go desperate when there are too good to be true deals, the right thing to do in such situation is be calm, talk to the seller and try to see if you feel the guy in genuine make the deal, the moment you feel there is something fishy you pull out of the deal.

There are sellers who will act like your perfect friend, you post somewhere for spares wanted and they pitch in to help, they will either give it to you for free but ask for the shipping money, the moment you pay them that, they are gone.

Another important point, I am sure most of you who are reading this have at some point asked a friend in a different state to help you with some purchase

The point I am trying to make is very simple, your friend might not be a champ to do a quality assessment or might not have the time(like in my case) to go check stuff out and give you some honest pointers, if you are taking a risk in buying something from a different state, first decide if you really want someone to really put that effort and go visually inspect. Gole Market Delhi is not close to places like Akshardham, so cut some slack to that friend of yours and don't pester him till he takes possession of the stuff you need

Pramod

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Excellent thread Pramod!

I haven't picked up a used bike yet - so it was great reading through the thread, and surely enough - all your experiences with classic bike purchases shows! And to know - even the bike you suspected has immediately been identified as a BHP'ian's friend's bike!

Another scam common these days is what we call the 'bro scam' in our friends circle! Youngsters quoting incredibly low numbers, with the pretext that they are college students and are dying to get that particular make or model. While some of these may be genuine, a lot many are fake and try to tell more stories about themselves upfront than you would ever want to know - before quoting dirt cheap rates! On top of all that - 'Full cash bro. I'm coming now itself'.

Also, check out this ad. https://www.olx.in/item/brand-new-in...iid-1516748031

All images were taken by me for the Team-Bhp thread, but the seller also mentions he hasn't taken delivery. So not sure whether true, or someone trying to make a quick buck by selling his booking to customers in the waiting list! December to June waiting period sounds too much to be true though! What do you think?

[SRK]

Very informative.

Just to check, I searched for Baleno ads on OLX and I see a few of them using my images from Baleno's (My Maruti-Suzuki Baleno Alpha 1.2L) review here on Team-BHP

[aghate]

Thank you pramodkumar for a very detailed thread.

I was about to get scammed when looking for a used Honda City in 2015. By all means, I find OLX to be the worst for these scammers. There might be other websites with similar examples but my opinion comes with my own experience.

So there is well maintained looking 2009 3rd Gen City with its photos taken in a covered parking lot advertised for sale in Pune. Looked like a public car park of a Mall. Priced sweetly at INR 2,75,000 with the usual story of a foreigner looking to go back to his home country and need to sell the car urgently. All boxes ticked. This is not the usual car stuck in an airport parking lot one.

Low mileage - check
Pictures from all sides - check
Number plate hidden for privacy - check

I call the number and it is received by a person trying an American accent(worst one, was not even close. Could tell the difference as had worked in Customer Support). I was unable to understand him completely, what I was able to comprehend was he just asked me to meet somewhere in Kalyani Nagar and call him when I reach there. I called my friend and discussed this a bit and decided to go. My friend did another online search and found the same car with same description being advertised for sale in Kerala (no city mentioned there). Hence, did not go to even look for the car as I believed to get scammed or worse getting beaten up for some money.

A tip for not getting scammed is doing a thorough online search for these 'Too good to be True' deals. What I learned was we usually search by entering a City name when searching. Especially using the major cities as a filter. This is normal I know and is convenient. What we need to do is, once we find a fishy/scam looking advert just enter the price range and the model and add a countrywide search filter. There won't be many adverts in the search results. Do the same for other used car websites. If you find it advertised more than once you have a problem.

OT: When I had advertised my car for sale on TBhp, OLX, Quikr, etc I got the worse responses on OLX. On advertising for INR 335k, within 30 mins my inbox was flooded with messages quoted with offered price, "I wil giv 2 lac", "1.5 lac best price" and so on. Removed the advert from OLX later.

[aghate]

Originally Posted by aghate

A tip for not getting scammed is doing a thorough online search for these 'Too good to be True' deals. What I learned was we usually search by entering a City name when searching. Especially using the major cities as a filter. This is normal I know and is convenient. What we need to do is, once we find a fishy/scam looking advert just enter the price range and the model and add a countrywide search filter. There won't be many adverts in the search results. Do the same for other used car websites. If you find it advertised more than once you have a problem.

Quoting myself here to explain what I meant. Did not even require much effort. I searched for an RD 350 in Maharashtra and then gave a countrywide search and Bingo!

One is for sale in Karnataka.



And the other one is in Goa. The same advert with locations changed. Even the description is exactly the same.

[pramodkumar]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Excellent thread Pramod!

Thank You

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Another scam common these days is what we call the 'bro scam' in our friends circle!

I have been in couple of those, Just tell them politely you cant sell for anything lower.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Also, check out this ad. https://www.olx.in/item/brand-new-in...iid-1516748031

This is a very popular quick buck making scheme and not a scam, people utilize the waiting period on some vehicles and they usually make a quick buck on top of the "sticker price". Usually the showroom can assign you a booking if you are really serious and put the money on the table, there are lot of guys who book and back out. But these interceptors are very slow to arrive, people who have booked in December are yet to get deliveries, so it creates a scope for a quick buck.

Originally Posted by SRK

Very informative.

Thanks

Originally Posted by SRK

Just to check, I searched for Baleno ads on OLX and I see a few of them using my images from Baleno's (My Maruti-Suzuki Baleno Alpha 1.2L) review here on Team-BHP

By default one should do a reverse search immediately after the moment you zero in on an ad. If the seller can't put actual pics he has something to hide and that's my cue to run away.

Originally Posted by aghate

Thank you pramodkumar for a very detailed thread.:

Thanks

Originally Posted by aghate

I was about to get scammed when looking for a used Honda City in 2015.

There was a thread on this very scam here, cant find it now. BTW a lot of people use OLX for window shopping ( I am guilty as well) so while window shopping some times depending on the mood of the day i sometimes low ball certain things I want but don't need, with a faint hope on what if he says yes .

Originally Posted by aghate

Quoting myself here to explain what I meant. Did not even require much effort. I searched for an RD 350 in Maharashtra and then gave a countrywide search and Bingo!

There are a lot of ads in olx in general where the sellers can randomly select locations. Example



I simply ignore such sellers, however tempting their prices may be, BTW 2800 for a cruze diffuser cannot get any sweeter, but I have good self restraint

Pramod

[gb97ce6]

I am in the market for a Shogun and just by sheer coincidence was watching a few days back a YouTube video from Pramod that explains how to differentiate a real shogun from a fake one and guess what? I saw a samurai converted to shogun today and the seller , who happens to be the 4th or 5th owner had no clue about it. Or he acted like he didn’t do it. Whatever

Another excellent article, thanks Pramod!

[greenhorn]

Happens everywhere - I used to buy old hifi eqpt on olx, and post restoration threads on forums with detailed pictures - Probably like you, I still trawl the classifieds looking for the next damsel in distress. Color me surprised when i found a listing here in the US show the photo of one of my Restored "after" shots posted in india!
After contacting the seller took the listing down, but it happens!

Somewhat offtopic. I was inspired to do a kerala mvd lookup and then an FB search for my dad's old RX, and actually found the bike on someone's profile!

Unfortunately the guy hasn't been online since 2017, and I'm still in two minds about if I should pursue it seriously

[BMvW.Rajat]

Very informative post.

There is another related scam, I was looking for a used car on OLX, this was about 18 months back. There was an ad I came across, a person selling an automatic Fortuner for about 4-5 lakhs cheaper than market value.
I was obviously very interested even though I wasn't looking to buy a Fortuner. So, I contacted him and he claimed to be from the German Embassy and this was the Embassy car that was for sale.
He said that we cannot see the car as they cannot risk sharing the car registration number and location for security purposes. He shared around 10 pictures of the car and asked me to deposit 50,000 as an advance and then he'll share all details and location in order for me to inspect the car and close the deal.

There were three things that made it obvious that this was a scam, firstly these cars are usually auctioned off and not just sold online. Second the German Embassy would keep a German car and not a Japanese. Thirdly, the guy clearly sounded like an African with his accent and claimed that his name is Ganesh .


Another little incident, a friend of mine found a Harley Davidson online for dirt cheap, the guy selling it claimed that it is a 'customs seized bike' and he is unable to pay for the clearance as he is out of money. He said that the clearance amount is around 90,000 and once the clearance is done, my friend could pay him just 1.5 lakhs and ride away on the new bike as all documents were getting ready in the RTO as all paperwork was completed before the bike was seized. My friend actually transferred the amount after multiple conversations and after that the seller was never reachable. He did file a case with the police but it didn't help.


Bottom line, don't transfer any money before physically seeing the vehicle and making sure all related documents are in place.