[nitro.1000bhp]

Originally Posted by ebonho

The 250 was always a no man's land product.

It does not have the outright oomph of the 390 and is overpriced over the 200 for what little it offers over the 200 (not even 5 bhp more for those extra 50 cc ... in terms of bhp per cc that's a VERY un-KTM ratio).

Many SE Asian countries have a cap of 250cc or they attract a hefty tax. So, KTM had to make a 250 to fill a market need as they can't sell their 390 there for cheap. Certainly not a bajaj idea me thinks. Although, deleting abs might have been their idea.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by nitro.1000bhp

Many SE Asian countries have a cap of 250cc or they attract a hefty tax. So, KTM had to make a 250 to fill a market need as they can't sell their 390 there for cheap. Certainly not a bajaj idea me thinks. Although, deleting abs might have been their idea.

If the Austrians were really on board (remember they no longer call the shots in terms of controlling stake ... that's Bajaj) then we would not have gotten a 250 that with 50 cc extra develops just 4 bhp more compared to the 200.

If maximising gains within allowed capacity was really the reason. Which I do not think was the case at all.

Unless there was also a bhp limit in said countries for that category ....

It was Bajaj doing a Bajaj.

And there are many guys with a lot more inside knowledge than me in Poona who say the same. Albeit off the record ...

Also, if maximizing cubic capacity for countries with a cap was the motive, and they went the whole hog and actually did a KTM level job of it, they would have cannibalized the 200 and replaced it with the better 250 in all countries. 50 cc is nothing. It's essentially a big bore 200.

Unless some countries had a 200 cc cap and others a 250 cc cap.

The 250 is essentially Bajaj doing a Dominar without the licensing limitations and curbs and within the KTM eco system.

And like clockwork, after the Dominar 400 we get the .... Dominar 250.

Cheers, Doc

[Mafia]

It may have been a strategy of bumping up 50cc from Bajaj.

The 250 Adventure is a standalone product and has to be analyzed for usability and ownership.

I did sit on the Adv 390 and found the seat too tall for my liking. The showroom I visited did not have a test ride bike.

I will try the 250 Adv after KTM ships to more showrooms with the 250 Adv.

Hopefully, the media will be more excited about the 250 Adv than this thread

[S15]

Originally Posted by ebonho

The 250 was always a no man's land product.

If you ask me, the 250 was a Bajaj idea. Its very typical Indian bike industry salami slicing of 25 to 50 cc increments spawning "new" models.

In India, maybe, it was in a no man's land. However, the 250 was always meant as a replacement for the 200, not as an additional model. But like Skoda did with the Octavia-Laura, KTM also decided to do the same, and didnt discontinue the 200, and tried to place the 250 at a premium.
I was mildly surprised when I saw that KTM did indeed upgrade the 200 to BS6 norms, but then, on deeper thought, I figured out why. (see fact 1)

Originally Posted by ebonho

If the Austrians were really on board (remember they no longer call the shots in terms of controlling stake ... that's Bajaj) then we would not have gotten a 250 that with 50 cc extra develops just 4 bhp more compared to the 200.

I have no idea what you have against Bajaj. Bajaj was a brand that took the dying almost bankrupt KTM and turned it around. Its Bajaj that has brought enthusiasts affordable motorcycles, like the Dominar.

Fact #1
KTM already had a 200cc engine, which they put in Duke 200, and that engine, albeit slightly downgraded, and without Fuel Injection was what found its way in the very first NS 200, and the AS 200, and still continues in the NS 200, albeit with Fuel Injection and ABS. Since they are already buildint the bloc, why not keep selling the D200. Doesnt cost anything, right? (VW Polo-Skoda Rapid strategy )

Fact#2 Pretty much the same as above for the D390-dominar saga

Fact #3 Some countries have a very strict 250cc rule, which led to the development of kawasaki ZX25R, the only 4 cylinder 250cc motorcycle, necessitated largely due to the Indonesia 250cc rule.

Fact #4 The 250 cc engine is, again, developed by KTM, and will trickle down to the Bajaj dominars and Pulsars, not the other way round. And the way I see it, there's no harm in it. Dont really like Dominar 250, largely due to it being too heavy, but thats a different story.


too long; didnt read: Yes, Bajaj-KTM are being greedy, not by launching the D250, but by still selling the D200, which is quite old. The 250 should have been its replacement. At that time KTM didnt have a 250, if they did, I can bet they wouldn't have developed the 200, but a 250 is needed, if not for us, then for the rest of the world.

PS: KTM started exporting the 250 WAAAYYYYYYY before we even got it, thereby negating your made for India story.
https://www.motorbeam.com/ktm-starts...-rc-250-india/

PPS: Maybe those guys in Pune that you are talking to dont really know that much after all.

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by Mafia

...I did sit on the Adv 390 and found the seat too tall for my liking. The showroom I visited did not have a test ride bike....

The 250 Adv is pretty tall too - just 10 mm less than the 390 Adv as I understand. I couldnt climb on the 250 that was on a paddock - and I am 6'2".

From the KTM India websiteanalytics (not sure this is an editorial error)



390 Adv

[nitro.1000bhp]

Originally Posted by S15

In India, maybe, it was in a no man's land. However, the 250 was always meant as a replacement for the 200, not as an additional model. But like Skoda did with the Octavia-Laura, KTM also decided to do the same, and.....

Fact #1.

PS: KTM started exporting the 250 WAAAYYYYYYY before we even got it, thereby negating your made for India story.
https://www.motorbeam.com/ktm-starts...-rc-250-india/

PPS: Maybe those guys in Pune that you are talking to dont really know that much after all.

And fact#5 KTM still owns a controlling stake in the partnership..KTM 51% Vs bajaj 49%...

Countries like Thailand and Indonesia are at the forefront when it comes to premium bike sales and dictate what products need to be made when it comes to global competitors...India is just a crawling baby compared to where they are.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by nitro.1000bhp

And fact#5 KTM still owns a controlling stake in the partnership..KTM 51% Vs bajaj 49%...

Thanks I did not know that. I recall sometime ago that Bajaj was planning to buy controlling interest in KTM AG. This was 2013-2014 I think. I assumed that it had gone through.

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by S15

too long; didnt read: Yes, Bajaj-KTM are being greedy, not by launching the D250, but by still selling the D200, which is quite old. The 250 should have been its replacement. At that time KTM didnt have a 250, if they did, I can bet they wouldn't have developed the 200, but a 250 is needed, if not for us, then for the rest of the world.

I was browsing through KTM's international portfolio to understand the footprint of its smaller Dukes and was surprised that the Duke 200 is still being sold alongside the Duke 390 in some international markets like the US, Australia. No Duke 250 is available for those markets.

The European countries get the A1 friendly Duke 125, A2 friendly Duke 390 and an A2 compliant version of the Duke 790. No Duke 200 or 250s for them.

In South America, Argentina gets the 200, 250 and 390 while Brazil gets the 200 and 390.

As for the Asian countries
- China gets the 250 and 390.
- India gets the 125, 200, 250 and 390.
- Indonesia gets the Duke 250 and 390.
- Japan gets the Duke 125, 250 and 390.

Of course, KTM bikes are sold in so many other countries but at least from the sample set that I saw, it looks as though the 250 fills a logical space in KTM's global portfolio.

Originally Posted by S15

Fact #3 Some countries have a very strict 250cc rule, which led to the development of kawasaki ZX25R, the only 4 cylinder 250cc motorcycle, necessitated largely due to the Indonesia 250cc rule.

Originally Posted by nitro.1000bhp

Doc really needs to do more research before going on to rant... countries like Thailand and Indonesia are at the forefront when it comes to premium bike sales and dictate what products need to be made when it comes to global competitors...India is just a crawling baby compared to where they are.

Even the tasty Honda CBR250RR was launched for the Indonesian market, but sadly never made its way here.

I was reading up on the Indonesian market and found that in volumes, it stood at around 6.49 million units in 2019, which means it is the third largest two wheeler market in the world after India and China. I couldnt find KTM's sales for Indonesia, they look to be a low volume player as Honda has 73% market share and Yamaha has 21%.

Originally Posted by nitro.1000bhp

And fact#5 KTM still owns a controlling stake in the partnership..KTM 51% Vs bajaj 49%...

In 2019, there was talk of Bajaj trying to swap its share of KTM AG for part ownership in the parent company KTM Industries AG. KTM AG is 51.7% controlled by KTM Industries AG (the parent company), 48% by Bajaj and 0.3% through a public float. Had the move happened, KTM Industries AG would have had 99.7% control of KTM AG and Bajaj would have had some stake in KTM Industries AG.

I remember reading that most of the revenue for KTM Industries AG came from KTM AG, so it would have been an interesting move if things had played out as expected.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

I was browsing through KTM's international portfolio to understand the footprint of its smaller Dukes and was surprised that the Duke 200 is still being sold alongside the Duke 390 in some international markets like the US, Australia. No Duke 250 is available for those markets.

The European countries get the A1 friendly Duke 125, A2 friendly Duke 390 and an A2 compliant version of the Duke 790. No Duke 200 or 250s for them.

So no 250 for the Western world.

Only the 200.

Wonder why ... (that's actually rhetorical, tongue firmly in cheek)

Speaking about the so-called heft of SE Asian countries, and apparently inconsequential India, it so happens that KTM's largest market worldwide used to be the US of A.

Till it was recently dethroned by ...

India.

Cheers, Doc

[S15]

Originally Posted by ebonho

So no 250 for the Western world.

Only the 200.

Wonder why ... (that's actually rhetorical, tongue firmly in cheek)

Didn't know Turkey, Japan, Thailand and Hong-kong were considered un-developed in Pune.

Turkey = https://www.spormoto.com/ktm-250-duke/
Japan = https://www.ktm.com/ja-jp/models/nak...duke-2020.html
Thailand https://www.ktm.com/th-th/models/nak...duke-2020.html
Hong Kong http://www.ibike.com.hk/02_market/ktm/2017/01_news.htm

But then, people see what they want to see, and twist the rhetoric to suit what they want to prove.

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by ebonho

So no 250 for the Western world.

Only the 200.

Doc, Europe has no need for the 200 or the 250 since 125cc is their entry level requirement for A1 license holders. Then comes the A2 level bikes and they have the 390 as well as the detuned 790 for that.

That said, Im genuinely surprised that the 200 is sold in the US and Australia. I dont have much insights into the Australian market but in the US, a lot of buyers do find that even the 390 is a small bike for them to enter into the biking world. The RC390 seems to be a track favourite though from what I have seen.

So is there really a market for a Duke 200 over there? It would be great if we could get details on how many 200s are actually sold in the US.

Originally Posted by ebonho

Speaking about the so-called heft of SE Asian countries, and apparently inconsequential India, it so happens that KTM's largest market worldwide used to be the US of A.

Till it was recently dethroned by ...

India.

I didnt know this and was just reading up on it. I was reading a press report by PIERER MOBILITY AG (confusingly, they were earlier called KTM Industries AG) and they claimed that KTM increased its market share to 9.7% as of Dec 31st, 2019.

But then I read the following in the same report as well, so I dont know what sort of mathematics is being practiced in Austria.

In the most important future market for KTM, India, its registrations (brand KTM) in the fiscal year by over 35% in comparison with the previous year. The market share rose from around 4.5 % to around 7.3 %.

Source for this incredible claim!

This press release makes no mention of actual numbers of KTMs sold in India in FY2019. So I found the sales figures on AutoCar Pro. It turns out that KTM sold a grand total of 50,705 units in FY 2019. Total sales of Indian two wheelers for FY 2019 as per Autopunditz was 2,11,81,390.

So, how in the world does that translate to 7.3% market share as claimed in the Pierer Mobility press release?

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Doc, Europe has no need for the 200 or the 250 since 125cc is their entry level requirement for A1 license holders. Then comes the A2 level bikes and they have the 390 as well as the detuned 790 for that.

That said, Im genuinely surprised that the 200 is sold in the US and Australia. I dont have much insights into the Australian market but in the US, a lot of buyers do find that even the 390 is a small bike for them to enter into the biking world. The RC390 seems to be a track favourite though from what I have seen.

So is there really a market for a Duke 200 over there? It would be great if we could get details on how many 200s are actually sold in the US.

I happened to pass by the KTM outlet in Melbourne with my college mate (he'd just picked up a Duke 690 in addition to many other liter class bikes in his stable).

We got talking to the dealer (a hardcore rider and masters racer in his 50s) who said that the 200 was a hoot and reminded many of the older riders of the small 2 strokes they grew up with. They absolutely loved it! And he was most excited that I was from the city where they were built. In fact it feels great wherever in the world I see a Duke.

No idea about the US, but its telling that the 200 made it there late this year, when the 250 was well on the scene. So they obviously picked the 200 over the 250.

To your point of Europe not needing the 200 or 250 because of the learner caps, well the same is true for the LAMS license cap in Australia which is actually up to 650 cc and hence while the 690 was out of that bracket (just), the 390 filled that void very nicely.

They still chose to get the 200 as well.

That says a lot to me. Don't know about anyone else.

Europe (including the UK broadly of course), US and Australia control and dominate Moto GP.

I'm talking as a biker here and not a bean counter. These long posts with dollar and cent and sales statistics numb my brain.

Cheers, Doc

[Red Liner]

I think the 200 was the best combination of motor, frame, and general appeal as a daily driver to make it one of the best in the KTM lineup. Does it remind people of the legendary 690 single?

I have a feeling it does.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

I think the 200 was the best combination of motor, frame, and general appeal as a daily driver to make it one of the best in the KTM lineup. Does it remind people of the legendary 690 single?

I have a feeling it does.

Spot on.

I miss Baby Duke. It's throttle response was something from another dimension man.

Cheers, Doc

[SoumenD]

Guys can we get back to Adventure 250 please? This thread was supposed to be for it

One of the first ride reviews on YouTube. I didn’t know Hyderabad taxes are so low compared to Bangalore. He mentioned on road Hyderabad is 2.84L. In Bangalore we need to pay around 45-50k more(3.3-3.4L)

https://youtu.be/qWPyTbXdjwg

Did anyone get a chance to test ride it? I still don’t see it in Bangalore showrooms.