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-   -   Offroad Riding - Tips & Advice (https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motorbikes/213904-offroad-riding-tips-advice-7.html)

Further, about the guy doing it on his mojo and Vespa, no offence, but all he did was waddle up the hill with his feet much like women ride their activas. Pretty easy to do on bikes with a very low seat height, but how would he fare on a bike with a 860mm Seat?

there is no real skill in pointing your bike at something and wringing the throttle much like I did. The real skill is in picking a line and being smooth with both man and machine.

This post is not about me vs him, or my bike versus his. I am simply putting out the facts basis the video you shared.

I meant other way around actually i.e. Xpulse losing to other big bikes on trails. There is a limit to how much power is of use there. It is more about suspension, handling, geometry etc. I have seen urban nomad's videos and I am sure he will be happier with a modded duke 200 than a duke 390 on trails. It requires really capable hands to get most of 390 on trails, someone of pro level like KTM test rider during adv launch.

Of course, the handling plays a big part, but like I said, I doubt the xpulse would handle significantly better than the bigger bikes because they appear to be specced within the same ballpark as far as suspension, tyres, seating position etc go.

Even if you can't use the full range of power on the 390, you'd still be able to accelerate quicker after turns, slowdowns, etc and get back to pace. That would compensate for any advantage the xpulse would have.

Only in case of a slow and tricky trail, the weight and wheel size of the xpulse would be a big plus. For faster trails the power advantage of the bigger bikes would easily blow away the xpulse.

Of course, I've not ridden either the adv 390 or the bmw. So, it's all conjecture inside my head. I'd love to be shown otherwise. Until then, I'm sticking to this. :p

Exactly, the video was shared for perspective since it was the same trail on a different motorcycle.

After all this isn't a competition item of sorts where you'd(general reference) actually gain anything tangible by proving to be the better amateur(lets face it, we all are).

Since my understanding was from reading several articles over the years I couldn't pin point to a single source, but I was able to find a Dakar rider's review of the YZ250F, highlighting a few notable areas;





To put simply, the duration between power strokes has an impact on traction i.e tractability, the same is the reason why 'Twingle' conversions and the Big Bang Firing order is preferred when it comes to operating 4 Strokes in a traction sensitive environment.

Duration has the same effect with respect to traction in single cylinders as well.

Happy Reading,
A.P.

I would have to move to mars if I were offended...go have a look at the comments on the article as well as the YouTube video. I’ve already reached saint hood and if I step out I will probably be crucified as well lol:

I think everyone here agrees that there is no substitute to skill and seat time. In my opinion, here are a few things that I feel have helped me further my off road skills:

- tyres : it’s a game changer... period. The naysayers are the ones who haven’t experienced a real knobby tyre and continue to harp on about how securas and speed blasters are “amazing” off road. Nope... not even close. The amount of grip on offer is insane! I used to look it as a crutch and something that’ll make me “a lesser rider”. Truth is, the confidence you get from these tyres let’s u push yourself more and attack obstacles, corners with more aggression. You understand traction a lot better as there usually is some warning before the tyre lets go. On a regular tyre (including those considered by most as off road tyres... which they absolutely aren’t) go from 100% grip to zero in half a second. No warning. Get urself a pair of knobbies if u can and see ur riding improve exponentially

- suspension : we continue to dissect oversquare vs undersquare engines, while ktm with Its oversquare engines continues to kick ass in every competitive off road format imaginable. To me however, the game changer is the suspension. I’ll take a solid suspension that keeps my wheels attached to the ground over a fire breathing engine any day of the week and twice on sundays. Getting your suspension tuned or upgraded makes a massive difference. You’ll be able to ride over stuff with more confidence and speed and hopefully leave behind some of those potentially Dakar winning villagers

- Ergos : simply put, make the bike fit you. Handlebars, footpegs, seat etc ... modify everything till you’re satisfied. Especially for off road riding, get the stand up ergos dialled. You may compromise a little bit wrt road riding, but to me that’s a very acceptable trade off. This will significantly help reduce fatigue and encourage you to stand up more. I’ll be the first to admit that I need to do more of that

- the bike itself : it’s a big one! Really depends on the type of riding you do and how fast u want to go. The 390 adv for instance I see being recommended to people who are just thinking of getting into off roading across various threads and forums. BIG MISTAKE! I can tell you from personal experience that a bike like the 390 has the capability of getting you in a LOT of trouble very quickly if you don’t know what you’re doing. A used impulse or a brand new xpulse is a much better tool to polish your skills off road. Again, many here share the opinion that any bike can go anywhere. That’s almost half true. The difference is if you want to waddle your way to the intended destination or ride there. As soon as you introduce speed, you reach the limits of what these dawns, splendours etc can do very very quickly. Sure, bobbing around with both feet sprawled along the sides is one way to ride, it’s just not for me

No offence intended towards anyone. Just sharing my two cents. Ride safe everyone!

Let me fill in on a few finer details that have been missed;

Blindly slapping on Knobbies is not how its done unless you have a 'weekend-bike' to spare, do read up about the same, knobbies are a safety hazard on tarmac at highway speeds i.e they literally go from 75~0% traction just like that at the hint of water. And this is also one of those scenarios where the ABS works against your best interests. Plus extended tarmac use would also have you changing tyres frequently, and this was on sub 15bhp machines, So to reiterate, Weekend Bike!

Then comes in the Dual Sport tyre's, I have clocked quite some miles on a variety of these almost a decade from now, in fact I was one of the first adopters of the Dunlop Monster Trail, read this is at least half a decade before Timsun/Vee Rubber etc showed up in the market.



The above pic was snapped by a friend and fellow enthusiast when he'd got the same as per my recommendation, sharing this as I lacked the hardware to click decent pics back then, they've been out of production for about 6~8 years or so now after Dunlop stopped operations in India.

As the name says they are perfect if you have one motorcycle for all intents and purposes, a pointer to note is that these tyres use a softer compound than knobbies and hence offer better all-round grip, the knobs are still prone to deforming under heavy use like the knobbies but they deform(slant) and tear rather than go for a a clean break. Life is still less compared to street oriented tyres but worth the grip if you have money to spend.

After all this the reason my preference has gone down to the likes of street tyres like the Ralco Speedblaster etc is because they are best suited for my kind of adventure, the kind that involves rough patches but which contribute a very less percentage of say a 500~1000 km's/day rides. And the prospect of changing tyres mid multi-day run is not something I appreciate. Those who've hauled some serious ass at a stretch would know that you can run on the hardest compound available and still wear down a tyre to the wire when on continuous long hauls, that is just how it is even on sub 15bhp machines.

So to sum it. Everyone should do their own research and find what is best suited for their lifestyle rather than go for a one size fits all approach.

As for engine configuration, as promised not going to debate on it as it is an already established 'fact', but I'll give you guys some food for thought.

KTM's motorcycles do kick ass in competition sports, where motorcycles are run at their peak outputs.

With respect to engine configuration, among short stroke and long stroke engines one of them is not suited for such competition use. Hint: Long Strokes.

Another piece of Trivia; Even during the 2 Stroke era(before most of us turned legal or were born) the Jap's have experimented with stroke properties with respect to traction, one of them even came up with an Experimental 'Long Stroke' 2 Stroke factory Trail bike for competition use but never made it to mainstream production.

Feel free to ignore all I've said, just make sure everyone indulges in making calculated choices.

Peace. :)

Ride Safe,
A.P.

Agreed. As far as us aam aadmis who can't afford or don't care to keep dedicated bikes are concerned, dual purpose tyres are the practical thing. I personally prefer more road biased tyres.

If only I could tolerate doing street and highways at a boring pace...

What's the outcome of this discussion supposed to be? When we're going back and forth so much about developing riding skill at novice levels, this hardly matters in the grand scheme IMO. Stroke properties aren't the last word on traction anyway. And unless you want a 210 kilo RE waterbuffalo, in India you're stuck between having to choose a short stroke or an even shorter stroke.

Besides, the actual experience of riding being a subjective thing that encompasses a lot more factors than just better traction, it's best not to look at everything through utilitarian lenses.

Personally, I'd still pick a faster revving motor and just beat the work out of the engine to get me the traction. Actually, I wouldn't make my choice based solely on the motor at all.

I'm curious now. What would your ideal dual purpose bike be?

I suggest you try riding a big ADV bike with a proper knobby like TKC80 ... and your misconceptions will go away.

Ofcourse using Timsum or likes on 15hp bikes - you are on your own.

My friend, TKC80 is a Dual Purpose tyre.

I have more faith in a stripped ZMA when it comes to going up trails like Urumbikkara(Do hit YT) than a Big ADV bike, but that could just be me, so you're welcome to prove me wrong or rather prove the whole community wrong as enthusiasts from these neck of the woods who own meaner machines still choose to do such trails on their smaller dual sport/commuter motorcycles. Maybe we could learn a thing or two from you and your big ADV, what say? :)

There simply is no one size fits all solution here, if it were so we'd all buy one particular motorcycle and do the same couple of mods and all be equipped to handle whatever comes our way.

So as said, if the information provided is beneficial then good and well. If you want to research it then by all means go ahead(Thumpertalk, DirtRider and ADVRider are good places to look but forums nonetheless, but they do tend to lead you to quality references and written content, Jimmy Lewis was the guy who wrote the earlier shared review, his reviews are a class apart provided the reader can grasp his nuances) and possibly share your findings for the benefit of our fellow riders. Else simply ignore, to each his own experiences. Isn't that reasonable?

Subjective is the keyword here my friend.

Provided you know at what cost, all is well.

My personal favorite is a stripped ZMA any day of the week. Here's one a friend and fellow enthusiast has built;



Or a ImpulZMA, if at all I'm able to find one in good condition as its less of a cop magnet.

As said for my intents and purposes this'd be my choice, all things considered.

So I guess that's all from my end with respect to these 'trails' of though as I believe I've contributed to the best of my abilities. But Yes, If I spot something interesting I'd be more than happy to share.

Cheers!
A.P.

I have seen plenty of pictures of Triumph Tigers at Urumbikkara. The Multi will be equally capable.

Maybe it is more challenging to do these trails on smaller motorcycles that make you work more and hence the greater the thrill for the riders? Also smaller bikes are more forgiving and easier to learn on. The same way that many experienced track riders prefer to keep honing their skills on smaller bikes than litre class bikes when heading to the track.

So after my Mrs asked for the nth time if I had ordered a set of spoons on Amazon I came online and landed on this page.

Im not sure if its just me but hear me out. The OP started this thread with a very clear indication of what he intended it to be
The first few pages made for some interesting reading even for someone like me who has no off-road inclinations, be it on two feet, two wheels or four. Some lovely videos, great question and answers with pictures of some mean looking off roaders. Suddenly from page 6 onwards like most motorcycle threads on our forum these days the topic veers towards "Mine is smaller than yours, so better"(obviously talking about engine size).
Recently I was researching on a non automotive topic when I came across some golden words in the form of an advice, The moment someone says "Research says...." Just walk away. Either that person has no practical experience or they don't know you as a person or what works for you and what doesn't. This thread I assume is to discuss real life practical experiences and learning.

Even though I don't know a thing about off-roading I do know there is no such thing as the perfect bike and that's the best thing about this forum and particularly this thread (at least the starting). Enthusiasts are sharing what they are working with and what fits in their budget, modifying as they deem fit and heck downgrading from 650cc bikes to what they think will suit their requirement and having a ball of a time.

On that note I think we should just stick to the topic instead of resorting to "Why don't you show us how its done" discussions. Maybe at the rate you guys are going I might be tempted to buy that Xpulse . :)



Better get back to those spoons.

But hey tbhp has got my back on that too, will just share this http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...s-problem.html :)

The general worldwide trend in adventure riding is moving towards smaller displacement motorcycles. People abroad have been screaming for a unicorn bike that is lightweight, yet powerful enough to do take on long distances and harsh terrain in relative comfort. People are ditching teh big adventure bikes in favor of smaller mid-displacement machines. Hence why the ktm adv390, the honda crf450l, the yamaha tenere 700 were such anticipated products.

And naturally, this being India, we need to one-up them by going even smaller on the displacement with our splendors. lol:

Jokes aside, however muddy the point may have become in the last 2 pages, the context was still well within offroad riding on 2 wheels, 100cc bikes and scooters included. lol: It's just another point of view. Let's take what we can from it (or not) and move on.

Definitely, but not just limited to that. We have people here talking from a diverse range of skill levels, experiences and preferences. You gotta let ideas have some air time and the democracy of discussions will put those ideas in their places.

Maybe you can borrow one for a few months. You'd probably be able to relate to and analyse a lot things said here better, no offense.

But yeah, less talking and more riding would be nice around here, me included.

Since Im not much of a social media person, I had to spend a grand total of 5 minutes in searching the internet, which led me to this link and another one where the biggest and baddest Tiger 1200 is at the top of Urumbikkara. I am not sure how much more validation is required, a quick check on Youtube shows these big motorcycles scaling up terrain even more challenging than Urumbikkara, with consummate ease. You just need to be a skilled rider to be able to handle such capable machines in off road conditions, that is all.

Like deepfreak15, I too am not really an offroad guy, I might watch some videos here and there or read this thread but my interest doesnt go too far beyond that.

Despite having ridden motorcycles for a long time, if I am faced with tricky offroad conditions, I would prefer not to ride a Tiger (or a GS / Multi / Africa Twin) because my skill level doesnt match the road conditions or what the bike is capable of. If push comes to shove, I would take an Xpulse or a Himalayan instead as the lower weight would make it easy to manage for me, being the novice in offroading that I am. That doesnt mean that a big bike shod with proper tires cant easily sail through that exact same road conditions, it is the lack of rider skill that is the limiting factor. If I had greater skill, I would pick the better motorcycle.

If I can give a more relatable example for readers, assume I head to BIC for the very first time to do 2 days of proper track riding and have a choice of the
- KTM RC 390 / Yamaha R3 / Ninja 400
- Triumph Street Triple 675 / Kawasaki Z900 / Suzuki GSXS750
- Ducati V4 / Honda CBR1000RRR (did I forget an R?) / Kawasaki ZX10R
I would go for the Street Triple 675 which is a bike that I own and am comfortable with. I am not going to look down on anyone picking the RC 390 and others because my skill level may be higher than what those bikes can offer, nor am I going to throw shade on anyone more skilled than me who would prefer a litre class bike, which would have far too much power for someone like me.

Unfortunately, this thread seems to have taken a rather alarming and egregious direction away from what it was intended to be. We all have our skill sets and our capabilities (limited or world class, real or imagined, as they maybe), it makes sense to ride within them and share our experiences and learning on this forum in a positive manner while respecting others.

All the guys who are out in favor of bigger capacity bikes. Have you personally taken your bigger bike offroad? What has your experience been? Not your skill level, just your personal experience with your bike off the road?

If not, even your responses are also simply conjectures. Please dont relate to youtube videos of someone else or pictures of some bike on top of some peak. Please participate with personal experience. Same goes to those who say smaller bikes are better or the best. Ashwins conjecture of his friend going offroad on the same trail is of similar perspective. That said, it is not correct to gang up on him, but respond with your own personal experiences offroad.

I have taken my Versys offroad, and i have taken my 390 adventure offroad. The best bike is the bike you have, not the bike on youtube. Lets try keep this thread about our skills first, bike set up second. What bike you ride in itself is unimportant in this discussion.

Now lets see your multis, enduros, big beemers, and striples offroad... We are bored lol: