[Newpunter]

A few more thoughts on the 450x.

1. One of the biggest complaints in the 450 was that the Touchscreen response was very slow and laggy. Ather seems to have addressed this by moving to Android and a Snap dragon processor. So atleast one complaint has been addressed.

2. The other most common request from the users was for the range to be increased. This has been only slightly addressed, but I guess Ather couldn't do much more without redesigning the whole scooter. The range of 85 kms that Ather quotes is on the Economy mode, which hardly anyone uses.

3. The mirrors, which have been the source of a lot of complaints, haven't been fixed and they still suck.

4. The 450x is the fastest scooter in India according to Ather. It looks like Ather spent a lot of time tuning the 450x to achieve this bragging point. As a user of the 450, I was already pretty happy with the performance and more power was not really on the top of my wishlist, although it doesn't hurt :-) .

5. I love the new color options. I have a hard time deciding if I like the black or the blue.

On the whole, if Ather had launched the 450x at a price closer to the 450, they would have sewed up the market, but now, they are in fire fighting mode with most of the people canceling their pre-orders.

A few pics from the event :

The Black version :




The Blue version:







The Dash board with the Dark mode (hope this comes to the 450 soon):

[superbad]

Originally Posted by bugatti

But having watched the livecast, I was actually pleasantly surprised. Better power, better range, faster charging, lower weight?, and so many more improvements that makes it a much more compelling buy. How the heck do you shave off 10kgs!! from a bike like this? It is now a comfortable weight for my father to use. And by the time this scooter comes through in Q3, an EV will finally have become a viable addition to the family.

They've actually really made this attractive enough for me (and family) which made me go ahead and book one now.

Updated features & specs sure are attractive, but at that cost?

Originally Posted by bugatti

There are other reasons why I'm planning to stick with Ather rather than go in for a Chetak or TVS. This is a much more sorted out product. This scooter is likely to make my life more comfortable, convenient, save me time, and plaster a grin on my face every time I accelerate. The entire package makes it irresistible. A decision like this is part economic, part desire.

Seems like it's purely a heart decision, because no way Ather 450X is economical to purchase or subscribe to.

Originally Posted by bugatti

Seeing the ownership experience of numerous 450 owners over the past 2 years, I do feel that the co. is putting out a really good VFM product. A lot of thought has gone in to improve the product. Every aspect of the vehicle has been rethought. It's not just power and range. This product has the ability to save me time and money. No hassles, no shit to worry about. And a 30k premium is something I'm willing to pay.

This sounds more like a seller's pitch, rather than any objective reason as to exactly how is it better than any ICE scooter for long term ownership.

Originally Posted by bugatti

Despite the initial higher price, given the conveniences the 450X offers, I will instead save time using this scooter. And given time = money,
I'll save money long-term. So my total cost of ownership is lower than owning a ICE scooter.

Let's assume an ownership period of 5 years & an annual mileage of 8000 Km.

ICE scooter -
Purchase cost = Rs 75000
Running cost (petrol) = Rs 2/km = Rs 16000/yr = Rs 80000 in 5 years.
Insurance, service, tyres, battery for 5 years = Rs 20000
Gross vehicle ownership cost = Rs 1,75,000

Ather 450X
Purchase cost = Rs 1,50,000 (upfront)
Mandatory subscription for 4th & 5th yr = 1,999 x 12 = Rs 23,988
Battery replacement = Rs 40,000 (conservative estimate)
Gross vehicle ownership cost = Rs 2,13,988
Note that this excludes any repair/service/part replacement cost for the Ather.

I fail to see the value proposition Ather offers over any ICE scooter.

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by superbad

I fail to see the value proposition Ather offers over any ICE scooter.

The value proposition is bragging rights on forums like these and out in front of expensive cafes. Millenials i tell you

[shashank.nk]

Originally Posted by Newpunter

The 450 feels very value for money, with the launch of the 450x .

It sure does now!

However, I fail to understand Ather's strategy here, frankly how many orders of 450x are they expecting? Not many are willing to spend 1.6 lakhs on a performance scooter. A scooter is mostly for point A to B commuting with the likes of Aprilia,Ntorq,450 making that commute a little bit more fun. 1.6 lakhs is Duke 200 money!

I'm not sure if many are gonna line up to buy the Ather 450 now that its going to be discontinued. It doesn't inspire confidence when a model purchased just a year ago is phased out so soon. We're not talking gadgets here.

I hope they rethink their strategy and come up with sensible pricing, say a 20~25k premium over the 450 makes sense, else they may squander their first mover advantage and hand over the market on a platter to the likes of Bajaj and TVS.

Originally Posted by superbad

Let's assume an ownership period of 5 years & an annual mileage of 8000 Km.

ICE scooter -
Purchase cost = Rs 75000
Running cost (petrol) = Rs 2/km = Rs 16000/yr = Rs 80000 in 5 years.
Insurance, service, tyres, battery for 5 years = Rs 20000
Gross vehicle ownership cost = Rs 1,75,000

Ather 450X
Purchase cost = Rs 1,50,000 (upfront)
Mandatory subscription for 4th & 5th yr = 1,999 x 12 = Rs 23,988
Battery replacement = Rs 40,000 (conservative estimate)
Gross vehicle ownership cost = Rs 2,13,988
Note that this excludes any repair/service/part replacement cost for the Ather.

I fail to see the value proposition Ather offers over any ICE scooter.

Slight changes in ICE scooter calculation

Upfront cost-Nearly 90k (for Ntorq with performance similar to Ather 450) some scooters like Activa Bs6 actually retail for around 98k here in Bangalore
Running cost-Most scooters don't return more than 30-35kmpl, so a running cost of around Rs.2.5 seems reasonable

So if we recalculate

Purchase Cost-90000
Running Costs-Rs.2.75/km-20000/year-100000 for 5 years
Insurance,repairs etc-20000

So it works out to aprx 210000 over a period of 5 years, which is where the likes of Ather 450 made some sense. 450x is just crazy expensive.

[hemanth.anand]

Originally Posted by GTO

The only way they'll learn a lesson is via customer response.

Response is already clear in the form of many cancelled orders.

Originally Posted by Newpunter

I was invited by Ather to be part of the launch in Delhi, so I watched the unveil at the Lalit in Delhi yesterday. I was so excited about the 450X and was planning to upgrade my 450, but after the price reveal, I'm thinking of canceling.

I was there too and I was very keen on what was in store for current owners like me in respect to upgrade I was disappointed as there was no mention of that. I've not cancelled my booking and will wait till they come out with details of that. Many of the questions were either left unanswered or were not explained clearly.

1. The Plus and Pro are the same scooter with different mappings. So if the scooter is slower in the Plus mode, I'm not sure why the range is lower. If anything, the range should be higher since the scooter would be using a lower amount of power. I feel that Ather is trying to make the Plus mode as unattractive as possible, so that people would choose the Pro mode (a bit like how Apple does with the lower end model, forcing people to buy the more costlier version). Ather did the same thing with the 340 and 450, so I think Ather will discontinue the Plus mode after a few months, citing lack of interest.

Completely agree. It is something like the 'Plus' being the successor of 340 and the 'Pro' is the successor of 450. They are two different mappings. If you observe the spec sheet carefully, the 450x has only installed capacity mentioned as 2.9kwh. In the 450 spec sheet they had 2.7kwh installed capacity and 2.4kwh usable capacity. If you opt for the plus plan, the map will restrict many parameters accordingly. Even bluetooth functionality will not be available in 'Plus'

2. Tarun confirmed that the Pro mode includes the Ather One subscription plan, so I'm assuming the Plus mode includes only the Ather Data subscription, meaning that there would be no free public fast charging, and no reimbursement of your electricity bill, and probably no free servicing, if you choose the Plus mode.

It will not be Ather One, It'll be Ather connect. They'll come out with more details on this later. As I said earlier, this was not and even now is not very clear.

5. The infinite battery warranty only works if you are infinitely paying for the subscription. The moment you stop paying the subscription, the warranty will revert back to the 3 year warranty. However, let's say you are planning to replace the battery after 4 years. By this time, you would have paid 96000 in subscription fees to Ather, so if you had bought the scooter outright for 160K, you would have saved around 36K which can be used for a new battery (I'm sure battery prices would have come down by that time). Besides, Ather hasn't said at what point do they consider that the battery degradation is worse enough for them to replace the battery, so the infinite battery warranty just seems to be a catch phrase for now.

That was my exact thoughts. Subscription model of ownership in comparison to buyout option is kind of an EMI option.

From my discussions in the event yesterday, I could understand one thing. The 450x launch was more an investor driven step. In their efforts to establish themselves and create a brand value, they were selling incurring loss or at cost price at best. The investors will obviously want returns and this even was a step in that direction. However, it works out to around 50k more than the 450 to the customer. But they can't just increase the prices and hence have improved things like better cells resulting in a little higher range and subsidy (18650-21700), Android Open source OS, Bluetooth with couple of accessories like smart helmet and TPMS, Dark theme for dashboard, a better map, faster charging speeds and two additional colour options. But as I wrote earlier, I felt they were under-prepared and all looked a bit hurried.

Pricing apart, I loved the matte black colour, I hated the mint shade. It was better in natural light but on stage it was really bad. it is still a nice product. Only after a test ride of the Bajaj will we be able to understand where exactly each one of the vehicle stands. I don't think the iQube will come close to these two in terms of performance, considering it is a hub driven scooter like the crappy Okinawa scooters.

Below are some photos from my phone taken at the event...

[karthis91]

Originally Posted by Newpunter

The infinite battery warranty only works if you are infinitely paying for the subscription. The moment you stop paying the subscription, the warranty will revert back to the 3 year warranty. However, let's say you are planning to replace the battery after 4 years. By this time, you would have paid 96000 in subscription fees to Ather, so if you had bought the scooter outright for 160K, you would have saved around 36K which can be used for a new battery (I'm sure battery prices would have come down by that time). Besides, Ather hasn't said at what point do they consider that the battery degradation is worse enough for them to replace the battery, so the infinite battery warranty just seems to be a catch phrase for now.

What is the difference between the subscription plans of Ather 450 and 450X? I already felt the subscription cost/year was an unnecessary burden for someone who just wants a scooter to move from point A to B. It adds to the cost of the already expensive 1.2L product.

Now, do we need to pay monthly subscription even for the scooter to work? What happens if you buy the scooter for 99K and don't pay subscription fees?

[XRoader_001]

Ather Energy has been in the news from 2013 the start up has now grown in brand value and grown customer base.

Having pre booked Ather 450 X & being short listed to attend the unveil event personally was excited to core as it was a first of such event I was attending.

Following are my takeaways from the event :

• The event was attended by Investors in Ather, owners who did pre-orders, current existing owners & auto/tech media

• Ather customer community has a superb fan base and brand does have that Tesla or apple-like connect with existing customers along with potential customers may be I am over exaggerating it.

• Ather seems to be concentrating on software & tech around the eScooter.

• Expansion & Investment plans to ramp up production under way.

• Ather 450 claimed range was 75km but its customers have been getting more than that 130km to 65 km.

• Ather now has been driven 60,00,000 km that's a lot of data for analysis they have proper R/D centre for e scooter.

• Ather 450X battery capacity has increased from 2.7 to 2.9 Kwh.

• Ather 450X battery uses a 21700 form factor Instead of 18650 form thus resulting in increase in power density & energy density.

• Ather 450X certified range is 116km and real road range is 85km thus an increase of 10 km from ather 450.

• Ather 450X now has peak power of 6kw and 26 Nm of torque.

• Ather 450X has got slimmer from 118 kg for Ather 450 to 108 kg for Ather 450 X.

• Ather 450X get a new ride mode it's a Wrap mode so total of Four modes in total Ride, Eco, Sports and Wrap.

• Ather 450X does a 0-40 in 3.29 sec and 0-60 in 6.50 sec.

• Ather 450X gets an Engine kill switch.

• Ather 450X gets the same existing 7 inch touchscreen, now with a 4G esim ,it does get a night mode, but the software shifts to android open source.

• Ather 450X gets Bluetooth connectivity this music and calls can be accessed on the screen itself.

• Ather 450X gets Tyre Pressure Monitoring system as an add on accessory.

• Ather 450X gets Three color options Green, White and Grey.

• Bluetooth and Android open source gives an emense devoleper opportunitiest Ather along with third parties.

• Regenrative braking , lower steering inertia, better flick-bility and better performance tyres.

• Ather announced 2nd gen Ather fast charging network it's 50% faster 1 km/min to 1.5km/min.

• Ather core philosophy is about being consistent in Range, Performance , flexibility and Experience.

• Ather introduced two subscription plans Plus and Pro where you can toggle at any time among them that's interesting.

• Ather plus will cost ₹ 1699 pm and pro will cost ₹ 1999 pm more details of plans will be out soon.

• Ather 450X will cost ₹ 99,999 and you can choose subscription plans Plus or Pro.

• If someone chooses to buy Ather 450X bundled with plans upfront 450Xplus ₹ 1.49 lakh and 450Xpro ₹ 1.59 lakh.

• Ather 450X deliveries will begin by July 2020 this year.

• Last part of the event was directed at investors and the future of Ather.

• Ather targets FY 20 : 2 cities , FY 21 : 10 and FY 22 : 24 cities presence.

• Ather escooter is 75% make in India with 40 supply chains established.

• Ather received 1840 dealership inquires recently with its campaign.

• Ather FY 21 : 10 cities, 200+ charging stations , 30,000 units production capacity & revenue of 540 cr revenue.

• Ather FY 22 : 24 cities, 1000+ charging stations , 1 lakh units production capacity & revenue of 1840 cr revenue.

Some Q/N highlights :

• Ather 450 will be phased out rather owners who have already pre ordered Ather 450 have option to upgrade.

• Details on Collector edition will be out in due course of time & Subscription plans for 450X will shared later.

• Ather will keep selling eScooter they have no intention currently to enter ethanol scooter market.

•Ather aims to be on premium segment of scooter.

•One of interesting comment by Tarun Mehta was we are giving you an apple experience at the price of Samsung don't expect us to be giving products at oppo or some Chinese smartphone maker.

• Ather 450X gets two accessory support Tpms & Smart Helmet

• Ather 450X dashboard will have a dark mode, OTA updates, Auto indicator off, Google Navigation, Take me home lights, Side stand sensor & Connected Mobile app

• Ather 450X gets a dashboard which has 7 inch Tft Lcd screen, Snapdragon 212 quad-core, 1 GB Ram, 8 Gb Storage, with AOSP (Android Open source OS)

• Ather 450X App gets Ride Stats, Push Navigation, Live Location vehicle stats, Music /Call control, Theft /Tow Detection, Welcome light & Voice Assistant

• Ather isn’t for masses and they ain’t making it more affordable any time soon, it will remain a premium nieche product only.

On the whole event did had some tech glitches personally residing in Patiala, Punjab it will be a long wait as it seems clear that ather is launching as per response to the vehicle pre orders & cities in which they have a certain number of responses. They are launching there only. And I haven’t cancelled the order yet. Sharing images from the event as well.

[Newpunter]

Originally Posted by karthis91

What is the difference between the subscription plans of Ather 450 and 450X? I already felt the subscription cost/year was an unnecessary burden for someone who just wants a scooter to move from point A to B. It adds to the cost of the already expensive 1.2L product.

Now, do we need to pay monthly subscription even for the scooter to work? What happens if you buy the scooter for 99K and don't pay subscription fees?

Ather 450 didn't have any subscription plans. You either buy it or get it on lease. With the 450x, you can buy it outright, or you can buy partially and pay subscription fees, which supposedly gives you infinite battery warranty, as long as your are paying the subscription fees. I'm sure there will be a lease option as well later.
If you buy for 99K and don't pay the subscription fees, I'm assuming you will not be able to use it. Right now, they don't have any way to remote disable the scooter, but since they have to give you the Plus or Pro mode to run the scooter, I think they will probably give you a null mode .

However, if you had paid the subscription charges for a few months and want to stop, Ather will calculate how much amount you owe them to make it yours completely and once you pay that amount, the scooter is yours to do as you wish. Again, the battery warranty will be only for 3 years, and the data plan would be mandatory for OTA updates.

Originally Posted by XRoader_001

• Ather 450X get a new ride mode it's a Wrap mode so total of Four modes in total Ride, Eco, Sports and Wrap.

From what I saw on the dashboard, they only have 3 modes. They just renamed the Sports mode to Warp mode. Most of the people were asking for the Eco mode to be removed, instead, they removed the Sports mode.
By the way, it was great meeting you yesterday (I was the guy sitting next to you in the event ).

[XRoader_001]

Originally Posted by Newpunter

Ather 450 didn't have any subscription plans. You either buy it or get it on lease. With the 450x, you can buy it outright, or you can buy partially and pay subscription fees, which supposedly gives you infinite battery warranty, as long as your are paying the subscription fees. I'm sure there will be a lease option as well later.
If you buy for 99K and don't pay the subscription fees, I'm assuming you will not be able to use it. Right now, they don't have any way to remote disable the scooter, but since they have to give you the Plus or Pro mode to run the scooter, I think they will probably give you a null mode .

However, if you had paid the subscription charges for a few months and want to stop, Ather will calculate how much amount you owe them to make it yours completely and once you pay that amount, the scooter is yours to do as you wish. Again, the battery warranty will be only for 3 years, and the data plan would be mandatory for OTA updates.



From what I saw on the dashboard, they only have 3 modes. They just renamed the Sports mode to Warp mode. Most of the people were asking for the Eco mode to be removed, instead, they removed the Sports mode.
By the way, it was great meeting you yesterday (I was the guy sitting next to you in the event ).

Sharing the screenshot of the specification sheet it does mentions the four modes. Indeed it was a pleasure meeting you as well

[Doo_Dev]

Originally Posted by XRoader_001

Ather Energy has been in the news from 2013 the start up has now grown in brand value and grown customer base.

Having pre booked Ather 450 X & being short listed to attend the unveil event personally was excited to core as it was a first of such event I was attending.

Following are my takeaways from the event :

• Ather seems to be concentrating on software & tech around the eScooter.
.
.
• Ather plus will cost ₹ 1699 pm and pro will cost ₹ 1999 pm more details of plans will be out soon.

• Ather 450X deliveries will begin by July 2020 this year.
.
.
.
Some Q/N highlights :
.
.

•Ather aims to be on premium segment of scooter.

•One of interesting comment by Tarun Mehta was we are giving you an apple experience at the price of Samsung don't expect us to be giving products at oppo or some Chinese smartphone maker.

• Ather 450X gets two accessory support Tpms & Smart Helmet
...

• Ather isn’t for masses and they ain’t making it more affordable any time soon, it will remain a premium nieche product only.

I had good respect for Ather for pioneering the EV market with a good product . In fact, I was very happy to see their vehicles on the road and the good review about the 450.

With the new launch, I get that the feeling that
1. The motorcycle is being treated more like a phone with more bragging in processor speeds/screens size rather than vehicle capability. As a buyer, I would have been happy if the new vehicle has improved vehicle level performance rather the improved dashboard specs.

2. There seem to be too many electronic gadgets which are probably not used most of the time and more gimmicky. Most of them need additional hardware (like TPMS, ride stats etc) and this would push the overall price higher.

3. For a vehicle in the commuter segment, how well the vehicle can meet the basic requirements ( range etc) is critical. If the buyers get an increased battery capacity for the additional amount ( over 450), it would have been a big selling point. With the current update, it is merely a repackaging exercise due to new entrants.

4. In my opinion, the pricing scheme is complex . The monthly subscription plan is a deal-breaker for me as I see it as a recurring cost. This recurring cost is more the cost of fuel if I were using an ICE scooter. It is like Apple or Samsung asking us to have a subscription for OTA updates for their phones?


5. If battery performance over the years is an uncertainty and if Ather is confident on their battery, Ather can structure an insurance package for the battery . Just like we have home insurance, we can have battery insurance and the yearly premium would be much much lesser than 24k (1999 x 12) per year.

As a buyer, their product looks promising/great and I want Ather as a company should last long and I don't want their products to get dragged down by the gimmicky burdens.

[Newpunter]

Originally Posted by XRoader_001

Sharing the screenshot of the specification sheet it does mentions the four modes. Indeed it was a pleasure meeting you as well

So it looks like the Pro variant will have the Warp mode while the Plus variant will have the Sports mode. But the scooter will only have 3 modes at a time.

[sri_tesla]

Ather is setting up a meeting to explain the pricing and subscription If you need to set up a meeting to explain your loan product pricing, it shows how screwed up the pricing scheme. CEO is still saying that the issue is a lack of proper explanation about pricing. He is cleverly sidestepping the absurd price increase from 450 for paltry performance and range increases. He still does not answer if the common issues which the 450 owners are reporting are being resolved in 450X or not.

Most of the users ignored the major issues like battery phantom drain, tyre air pressure reducing every few days, rough edges around brake lever, bad mirror design, cheap plastic parts, display issues, pathetic 3G network, etc... because Ather is the first company to actually produce EV 2 wheeler with decent performace and range and they are a startup. If Ather had released 450 at the 450X pricing, then they would not have got even 10% of sales.

https://forum.atherenergy.com/t/internal-updates/290/42

Even before this 450X subscription drama, Ather had few subscription plans costing as high as Rs 826 per month. Even the basic subscription which has over the air updates required Rs 300 monthly payment.

[hemanth.anand]

Originally Posted by karthis91

What is the difference between the subscription plans of Ather 450 and 450X? I already felt the subscription cost/year was an unnecessary burden for someone who just wants a scooter to move from point A to B. It adds to the cost of the already expensive 1.2L product.

Originally Posted by Newpunter

Ather 450 didn't have any subscription plans. You either buy it or get it on lease.

.
The subscription plans of the 450 were for data connectivity, service, free public charging and home charging reimbursement. There are 4 of these.. Ather Connect, Ather Charge, Ather Service and Ather One.
The subscription plans of 450x are for performance parameters. The two 450x subscription plans will include the Ather Connect subscription plan. What if you want to change it...yet to be known.

Now, do we need to pay monthly subscription even for the scooter to work? What happens if you buy the scooter for 99K and don't pay subscription fees?

If you buy for 99K and don't pay the subscription fees, I'm assuming you will not be able to use it. Right now, they don't have any way to remote disable the scooter, but since they have to give you the Plus or Pro mode to run the scooter, I think they will probably give you a null mode

How would they manage the pro and plus subscription payments...not clear yet. I feel they'll manage it like something bought EMI. What will happen to this any other scooter if you don't pay EMI? That same thing will probably happen here I guess.

Ather has invited all Bengaluru 450 owners and people who've booked the 450x for an open house discussion to explain the pricing models in depth and gather more personal feedback. This will happen this Saturday. A clear effect of the critical feedback it has received after yesterday. Don't know what they have in store but I'll mainly attend hoping to get information about upgrade programs

[NiInJa]

I saw a few Ather bikes during a short trip to Bengaluru, really liked the bike and started doing some research on getting one in Pune, and then this subscription thing came up with the launch of 450X. I for one don't believe in the idea subscription of material things (bikes, furniture, cars etc ) as we end up paying a lot to the service provider in the end for no good reason. Plus a scooter's subscription is not like Netflix where I can share it with my parents/brother/friends to divide costs. To really get a good 'return' on subscription, one will have to make sure that the scooter is ridden everyday and for a good amount of distance, otherwise one is better off buying a normal ICE scooter. Indians have survived on 110 cc scooters so far, so the torque and power figures of Ather wont matter much. Some how I get the feeling that this 450X is launched at a steep price just like a flagship mobile phone and will come down drastically in a year, just like a mobile phone

Even if I were to buy the scooter outright, I feel the entire 450X presentation and cost calculation is based on unproven facts on how much the battery would cost after 3 years and how much will it degrade based on real factors. So I am going to wait for three years before taking electric scooters seriously. If really needed, I will buy a used scooter for the time being.

[sj_koova]

Originally Posted by sri_tesla

Ather is setting up a meeting to explain the pricing and subscription.

I got this mail today. Not planning to attend.
The only to-do list in my calendar as far as Ather is concerned is "CANCEL".
No mercy towards these kind of over optimism.
I shifted my focus completely to Nexon EV.